# Are job prospects in the IT sector improving?



## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

Hey guys. 

Was just reading something interesting. Have a look at  EDP24,.
In an Interview with a Recruitment company, things are starting to look up for the East Anglia areas. IT jobs particularly it seems. 

Even though unemployment claims are higher nationwide than they were a year ago, do you think that the turn around in East Anglia could be the start of the turn around for the rest of the UK?


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## iburrows (Apr 30, 2009)

Hi Pheonix,

Would be nice to think so but like the article says its a very small sample and doesn't really reflect the UK as a whole e.g. LlloydsTSB today announced they are making 700 IT Staff redundant.

I am a lot like you that i keep reading these stories looking for a glimmer of hope for our industry and the uk unemployment issue as a whole. However I think we need to realise that its going to take a long while for things to go back to the way they were.

Wouldnt it be great to be back in the .com boom when you could demand whatever salary you desired :woot::4-sunshin

Ian


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

Hi Ian. 

I think Ive mentioned Lloyds but yea, you're right. Its going to take a long time. it depends on us and how much we are actually willing to do. Im just trying to find the good where everyone else sees the gloom. 

aaaah the .coms  sometimes i still dream about those days....  seriously tho it would be awesome. 

lol anyway enough from me . Have a good weekend.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Hi PhoenyxRising/iburrows

I really don't think IT will ever be an outdated kind of profession, in fact just the opposite, look at technology today there are new gadgets, applications, programmes in all sorts of areas from marketing to media, the web and so and and so forth, and so frequently that surely the demand for IT work must somehow rise continuously because of that, yes there is a slump in work generally because of this cursed recession and that is a worry for all, but I dont think people in the IT field have that much to worry about, our future depends on IT, for most of us our lives and work revolve around it, do you agree?


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

Hi Melli Jelli.

I would yea. I mean if you look around you, virtually everything nowdays is controlled by a machine that is run by a computer. (except maybe a pen or pencil ). I guess it more or less once again boils down to how long this recession is going to last and how badly IT jobs are going to be affected by it. 

There are loads of IT professionals nowdays that can and actually DO work out of their own businesses or even houses, and to be honest i think if there was more support, things would be a lot better. As it is there are loads of IT folk vying for the same jobs. And if you look at it the only difference they have is in the amount of experience they have...

In the end, i think the only thing that could actually save us from this problem is well.. ourselves.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Yeah true, but there are so many different areas of IT you can study these days, I think if your in a IT position that is very common it would be a good idea to try gain some alternate skills in a another field of IT, this way you have a choice of which jobs to apply for, what do you think about that? :4-dontkno


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

Mellijelli said:


> Yeah true, but there are so many different areas of IT you can study these days, I think if your in a IT position that is very common it would be a good idea to try gain some alternate skills in a another field of IT, this way you have a choice of which jobs to apply for, what do you think about that? :4-dontkno


The limit is endless. Even if you start with a simple a+ you could go into networking, and work your way up to degrees in all sorts. 

Its just a matter of taste and skills i guess.


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

I've been in this field a long time, and I've see the shift continue. Faster, smaller, more standardized hardware along with the 3 year life cycle has reduced the need for computer technicians. The only fields I see improvement in is Customer Service (help desk,) All Programming, and Network Security. And the big employers for Security are Government and Telecomms. New network installations are now handled by electricians, and computers are installed by unskilled temporary laborers. A local company here I once worked for has reduced it's IT technical staff from over 100 to 9 in the past 10 years. All the networking and systems administration work is outsourced. Computers aren't fixed, they're replaced and sent off for recycling. And until recently certifications were enough. Maybe because of the economy, employers are demanding Bachelor Degrees in addition to certification.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Hi Suncoast

Im amazed that companies have cut down on their work force so much,  its quite sad actually, do you think that if the economy improves things will get better or will they continue to go on like this? If you think about it why would they go back to employing more staff when they can use unskilled staff to do instillations and so on, also you said computers are not being fixed but replaced which also makes sence as there are so many newer models coming out all the time people just want the bigger and better versions of everything


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

I have to post a quick reply, as I'm heading out. 

I think things will improve. I've seen the cycle of outsourcing shift back and forth. It's cheaper to outsource, but the company has less control. When companies have the money, they want people on staff, and under their control. So yes, I think things will improve. 

As for replacing computers, desktop prices stayed around $2000 each for many years. Then they dropped to around $500, and they are still falling. Companies that were flush with cash for years developed a systems procedure of replace rather than repair procedure. It's simply easier. And some computer manufacturers have fostered this mentality with very inexpensive three year cross ship replacement warranties. So IT departments freak out at the thought of changing their ways by actually holding onto equipment longer and actually setting up bench tech facilities to repair equipment. 

I may come back and edit this, I have to run


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Hi Suncoast

Im just wondering now... is it cheaper to replace an entire PC than to repair it, or is it that companies have realized that it is cheaper to do this than to hire people to do so? With desktop prices dropping more and more, I would think it would work out cheaper to replace a PC than to hire staff and pay them for the work of doing repairs, maybe you would know more about this.


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

Hi Mellijelli. 

In some ways it is better. But i think in the long run, If you have a lot to replace, that maybe it will be better to just replace the one piece you need to replace. And if you have a well skilled IT department it shouldnt be difficult. 

It may be cheaper to just replace, but wot if the stock you get from certain places are less than perfect? youd spend more money replacing than wot it would have cost to just replace.


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

PhoenyxRising is correct. Look at the big picture, because there is another cycle at work here. 

At one time, mainframes and dumb terminals ruled the IT shop. Then along came smart terminals, then the personal computer. Then we networked those computers to file servers. Originally they were simple extensions to our local hard drives. Then the web came along. Now web servers are merging with file servers, which are much more powerful than those early mainframes. Applications, not just saved files, are moving from the local hard drive to web based applications. Email was the first widely accepted application to move to web based. 

The day of the dumb PC is fast approaching again ala smart terminals, with web servers replacing the mainframes of old. Soon there will be no need to have word perfect loaded on the local PC. All you will need on the local PC is the ability to login to the companies web based word processor or other office application. The PC will become a generic commodity. The real work will be at the centralized web server level. We are cycling back to the mainframe days under the guise of "Web Servers."

Because less is needed from the corporate PC, they are getting cheaper and cheaper. 

Just having an IT Tech on-site is not all that's required. You need someone to manage an inventory of spare parts, you need floor space for tech support, someone to handle RMA's and warranties, and so on. Where as PC swappers only need a mailroom. 

Users access will not be determined by whats on their hard drive, but who or where they login to their corporate web server from. So no tech will be needed to migrate user data or applications from the local hard drive. 

And Sysadmins, the next step will have that corporate web or database server outsourced to regional bunker style data centers. Following in the footsteps of our telephone systems. 

I was in an office supply store yesterday and I noticed they had new desktop computers on sale for $339. Average that out over 3 years, and that's less than $10 a month asset cost. If you bean count that with the fact that roughly 5% of new computers have a failure in the first year, that only adds about $1/month/seat to the cost of doing business. So how many computers would your company have to be supporting before it would pay to have dedicated desktop technicians?


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

This Forum here has a 30 minute edit block, so I'm reposting my final version as a new message

PhoenyxRising is correct. Look at the big picture, because there is another cycle at work here. 

At one time, mainframes and dumb terminals ruled the IT shop. Then along came smart terminals, then the personal computer. Then we networked those computers to file servers. Originally they were simple extensions to our local hard drives. Then the web came along. Now web servers are merging with file servers, which are much more powerful than those early mainframes. Applications, not just saved files, are moving from the local hard drive to web based applications. Email was the first widely accepted application to move from the PC to web based. 

The day of the dumb PC is fast approaching again ala smart terminals, with web servers replacing the mainframes of old. Soon there will be no need to have word perfect loaded on the local PC. All you will need on the local PC is the ability to login to the companies web based word processor or other office application. The PC will become a generic commodity. The real work will be at the centralized web server level. We are cycling back to the mainframe days under the guise of "Web Servers."

Because less is needed from the corporate PC, they are getting cheaper and cheaper. 

Just having an IT Tech on-site is not all that's required. You need someone to manage an inventory of spare parts, you need floor space for tech support, someone to handle RMA's and warranties, and so on. Where as PC swappers only need a mailroom. 

Users access will not be determined by whats on their hard drive, but who or where they login to their corporate web server from. So no tech will be needed to migrate user data or applications from the local hard drive. 

And Sysadmins, the next step will have that corporate web or database server outsourced to regional bunker style data centers. Following in the footsteps of our telephone systems. 

I was in an office supply store yesterday and I noticed they had new desktop computers on sale for $339. Average that out over 3 years, and that's less than $10 a month asset cost. If you bean count that with the fact that roughly 5% of new computers have a failure in the first year, that only adds about $0.50/month/seat to the cost of doing business. So how many computers would your company have to be supporting before it would pay to have dedicated desktop technicians?

These changes are underway, but they will still take some time. Because there will always be a few power users and devices like printers that need support, the technician will always be with us. But I think all but the largest of companies will outsource their tech support, which is already happening all over.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Thx for all the insight Suncoast was an interesting read. 

From a different angle now do you think that the same applies to home/personal PCs outside of the working environment, I use my PC for both work and personal use and I work from home, my desktop is kitted out with all the best hardware, for me performance is key and my PC is used for all sorts, storage space is important, graphics, screen size etc, having built it myself I dont see myself replacing it anytime soon unless when wear and tear takes place and parts need to be replaced, I would also look at increasing RAM at some stage, not everyone knows how to do this themselves obviously and if needed would then ask a PC store or IT Technician to do this for them, so although in the workplace this would be much more logical I dont think the same applies for personal use, what do you think?


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

I work and live in Tampa Bay, a Tropical area with a lot of Seniors. Without a regular job for over a year, I have barely been supporting myself doing home computer repairs. A year ago I could charge $50(US) an hour for on-site tech support. Now I'm happy if I can get $15-$20 an hour. And that's before my expenses and taxes. Everyone is hurting in this economy, and home computer repair is off also. So the calls are still dropping off as more and more unemployed techs are competing for less dollars. When you deal with home computers and small business, you get very little repeat business if you did your job right. At the same time, this work is bad for the Resume, because potential employers want to see you working full time for another employer. What they call "verifiable employment references." So I've been trying to get in with a real company that does this, but so far, no luck. 

The ones that benefit from power users like yourself are the local PC shops. And everyone should support their local PC shop, not the big box stores, or they will disappear too.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

I see... wow thats harsh, so you have to drop your hourly rates for work carried out so that people wont go to someone who charges less than you do... gosh :sigh: its such a pity that companies dont recognize working for yourself as verifiable, but what can one do if you have no other options, everyone is trying to make ends meet these days I barely scrape through each month also, finding work is really tough, so Im just glad I at least have a job, have you tried submitting your CV on job boards yet?


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

The harsh reality of the times nowdays im afraid. Its becomming a warzone of competing technicians for jobs. 

Why can't working for yourself be counted as verifiable. you actually show some initiative in that you are working for yourself and doing what you are trained to do. 

Not like some that just sit back and wait for the opportunities they will not see. 

Power users already know a little about PC's so most PC shopsdont have a lot of qualified staff. 

They only know how to troubleshoot the basic stuff. I hope they dont dissappear too fast. lol I still support them a lot and my work depeds on them.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Hi there PhonyxRising

I know of counting..... 9 people that work from home, some have gone into professional photography opening up their own little studios from their homes, others doing Web Design and others who work as contractors doing administrative and editing jobs for various companies for an income, I think its quite unfair to judge these people on their credibility just because they dont work in some fancy office somewhere and have no references to fall back on in an interview, most people who work from home now have either lost their jobs because of the current economic state, having been retrenched, they are all skilled in what they do and some have opted to start up in a job that they have a passion for and left their old work places behind to give something new a go, but big companies want the work experience on black and white along with the qualifications to go with it before employing...


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

Hey, the latest US unemployment figures say things may be improving! Bloomberg article here. 

Since I added to my Resume about 6 months ago that I was doing independent home and SOHO work, I have not received one employer response. Has anyone else seen this? I'm beginning to think employers don't like to see self employment?


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

I see they updated the article that now includes this statement :upset:


> The pace of job cuts isn’t slowing fast enough to keep unemployment from rising. A report tomorrow will show the jobless rate jumped to the highest in 26 years in July,


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Suncoast its good to see articles like this, gives a little hope...I was reading up on the net yesterday and I came across this article written by a  Cedrick Wolf thought you might like to read, he says much of what you have been speaking about and, also gives some advice for self-employed businessmen. About the companies not wanting self-employment candidates iv not experienced this myself but then again iv not been job hunting.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

mmm so a little bit of a contradiction on their part there it seems :wink:


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

You know, sometimes i wonder, What would happen if it wasnt just the IT tech that ended up being retrenched. There are so many ceo's out there that are sitting pink in their plush office chairs. How much do they actually worry about the people they work for? Small companies I believe have a sense of family, but massive corporations that employ thousands? Whis to say that these people just look at numbers, money comming in, money going out, put it all into a big equation, and then decide that, if the lowered these numbers, then more money would come in than would go out. 

Ok i might be venting a little, but let me ask you, what happened to advertising? New strategies, new products. Why get rid of a score of people, when you can just become more competitive in the market youre in?


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

PhoenyxRising I was watching an episode of Oprah the other day and they were also talking about how the rich are also being affected by the state of the economy, there was an anchor man who after being in his job for 36 years was suddenly retrenched, luckily for him he was studying on the side to become a veterinarian technician and so when he lost his job he went into doing this, but he now earns less than half of what he was when he was an anchor man, another lady who was also wealthy and owned a number of hairdressing salons was forced to close down most of her salons as she just could not afford to keep them running because of no business coming in anymore, they also said that most formally higher middle class people have now fallen into the lower middle class or lower class category due to the economy being hit so badly, so although we might think the higher up people have it really good and yes most do like the super rich, there are some out there that have also been affected by all this.


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

I guess that is also true , I wish i was one of the wealthiest tycoons in the world..... lol sigh.


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

That article is fascinating. Gave me some ideas too. Thanks Mellijelli for posting the link. 

I would make some comments though, where he said forget the certifications. 

I read somewhere that three quarters of the people being hired right now are through referrals by friends and family. It is who you know that will get you the job. What about the other 25 percent? So be nice to everybody! :wave: And beef up the resume with Certifications. 

I believe when a client is trying to decide on who to hire for some on-site tech work, having certifications will help get you in the door. And as I posted in another thread, I think you need at least one Microsoft, Cisco, or Something+ certification to show the employer your not just career shopping. 

And on the talk about the wealthy... I have a large family, and a few are self employed and fairly well off. But they are really living off their past earnings. Some are not taking salaries, and some are putting money back into their business to make ends meet. One guy, a Builder who is very middle class, told his kids they needed to get scholarships if they wanted to go to College. Luckily they both did just that. And the Upper Class may not be showing it, but most lost a lot in the stock market drop, and most are worried. It's a fascinating transfer of wealth. 

Cheers,
Steve


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

Hey Steve, Its true. the more you have the better your options are, and you can even study from home. 

So you dont have to take another loss in income in which to do it. AHHH the famous saying, its not what you know, but who you know. 

Personally I dont like it. I cant see myself kissing up to someone, I am nice to everyone, but you get the oddballs as well. It just means the other 25 percent have to go through more to get the same results, If thats even possible. 

Thanks for the post Mellijelli, it was enlightening . 

Im glad there are still good people in this world that care about others rather than their own pockets. ray:


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

Whats wrong with IT jobs in america? There are the bundle of them here in Asia.


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

Its more or less the same as anywhere. there is too little demand and too many to supply services. And not everyone can afford to immigrate to other countries.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

It is true, if you have connections in business you are more than likely to get first option for jobs im sure, but it is worth having your certs when job hunting, they are important and will definitely give you a better chance of getting the position, I really don't agree with the "its who you know, not what you know" thang but it happens. 

I think a lot of people are digging into their savings these days to get by and this is not good, what happens when that money runs out too? Most likely they then take out overdrafts and loans which then need repaying increasing your monthly expenditure and so on and so forth, its a vicious circle. I think all round people are heavily cutting down on their previous ways of living and spending just to get by each month.

And im glad the article has given you some ideas Suncoast.

Ummm Engineer Babar which country exactly do you live in?


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

I dont either, but yes it does happen. 

Im not too sure about overdrafts tho. loans are also becomming rare as banks are tightening their pursestrings as well. credit policies get checked and rechecked. 

So in the long run all we can do is hope it doesnt last long.


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

Well, they are piling up their credit card debt. Some people are living with their heads in the sand and trying to live at the same standard of living. That's why the Credit Card Companies are dropping many people's credit lines or asking customers to update their credit applications. 



> So in the long run all we can do is hope it doesnt last long.


 ray:

The stock market is recovering. They say that's the first sign it's over!


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

The thing with credit cards is that the payments come with heavy interest charges and you end up paying 100% more than it would have cost if you had bough it cash . Normally people take out loans to pay their debts making everything much worse for themselves, but what does a person do when you have all this credit card debt and find yourself unemployed overnight??


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

you mean im a dying breed? :grin: I can see that happening tho, all the advancement to simplify our lives. Thats why techys never really stay techy's for long. 

They say the average life span of a motherboard is about 2 years before it starts giving problems. But you also have to consider the rule of pebkak. ( lol personal joke) as long as there are uneducated users out there, there will be problems amd we will be needed. 

Credit? hmmmm its something i am HIGHLY allergic to... I break out in crying fits.... honestly. :grin:


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

I live in Pakistan. Here every It graduate and engineer get suitable offers from the companies in the final year of their degree. Although its a developing country but its not as bad as the world thinks of it. The IT and engineering jobs situation here is very much satisfactory. But I have plans to move to England after completing my Engineering degree under HSMP(Highly skilled migrant program).


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Wow thats encouraging to know actually, cause as far as iv seen the Graduates are struggling to get UK jobs placement after they graduate, companies are not taking on as many as before due to this recession going on they have cut their work placements drastically. Has the recession hit your Country badly too Engineer Babar or not as much?


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

ummm. Not as bad as it affected the Europeon countries and America. Atleast no bank is bankrupted.hehehe What about your country? Which country you live in?


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

It would be interesting to know. I mean i have seen so many of my graduate friends get depressed because of prospects. All i keep telling them is to add to their cvs. Do as much as you can. it all works in the long run.


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

I think phoenyx is rite. Noadays people are having bulks of degrees and still not satisfied. lol. I know a person who first did bachlors in engineering, did masters, went for PHD abroad. After that he did MBA. Got CCNA. Now he is going for a short french language course.lolz


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Well i dont know if anyone has heard of people being over qualified for the job? Iv spoken to some very educated people who have applied for some positions and were told they have too many degrees and because of it they did not get the job, the thing with candidates who have much qualifications is that they require a bigger salary because of it and companies cant always afford them, strange right?


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

Oh that is a real problem. Hiring supervisors are often fearful of an overqualified applicant replacing them, so they pass. But that is really only an issue in smaller companies. Larger companies with trained Human Resource personnel know to watch for that.


------------------------------------------------
No Job? Stay out of Florida! Catholic Charities is setting up huge "Tent Cities" throughout Tampa Bay for all the homeless who come to Florida on their last dime and can't find work. People are fighting against this homeless influx. Florida's unemployment rate is the 3rd highest in the US.


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

I cant believe that there is unemployment in USA. I have heard that everybody there gets a job. Even the migrants from pakistan and India.....


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

Its true tho. Nowdays the recession has hit all the countries, and work is hard to find. Unless your willing to work under the minimum wage scale.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Yes if you could get a position in a larger company then that would be perfect, just that work is so scarce its no easy task finding a good and solid company who has its roots firmly in the ground.


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

hmmm. I see. Whats the possible reason of this recession??


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Engineer Babar the recession has basically been caused by a general slowdown in economic activity which has been going on for quite a while now, and business has decreased in many sectors, so during a recession many macroeconomic indicators vary in a similar way. 

Production, employment, investment spending, capacity utilization, household incomes and business profits all fall during recessions and this has been happening in most countries so everyone has been hit hard by it.


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

I think the real root of the recession was the over valuation of real property, how those over valued properties were approved for financing, and how those bad mortgages were under insured. When that house of cards collapsed, the effects were felt throughout the economy.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Thats another thing yes property values are sky high, ridiculously so, I think there is a ton of bad debt laying around.


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

A lot of people are trying to sell now as well to cover said debt. They cant afford the premiums on their houses now and look to either rent or buy smaller houses. I do think it had a large part to play in it.


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

At the moment im renting but the more I think of it the more depressed I get because all the money im spending on rent monthly I could rather be paying off on a house I own, the problem is that property costs are so high I just cant afford to buy a house right now, id like to think at some stage my hard earned money can go to payments on a house I can call my own instead of into my landlords pocket every month :4-thatsba


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

Nice avatar mellijelli... Hey the TSF people didnt allow us to use our own avatars.. So sad... Isnt it??


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

Avatar of phoenyxrising is also cute..


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

lolz thanks Engineer Babar. My profile avatar or this one  In your profile you can have an avatar, but here on the forum you use one of the many they give you.


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

thats also nice and cute phoenyxrising... scooby dooby dooo. I love these cartoons. You??


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

lol hi there Engineer babar. Sorry i havent answered you in a while, but i have been busy at work. lol i love cartoons in general... 

Have a good day

Phoenyx


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## Mellijelli (Jul 6, 2009)

Hey Engineer Babar thanks, I thought the avatar was cute too, it is a little strange that we are not allowed to upload our own but they really do have quite a huge number of their own to choose from and some are quite cool :wink:


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## PhoenyxRising (Jun 17, 2009)

I agree. They have a huge selection to chose from, like my scooby doo over there :grin: couldnt resist.


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