# 1999 Malibu 3.1L LS 250k+ Miles Cooling System gets hot and smell of fuel when idle



## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok where do I start :smile:? I have been going crazy trying to figure out what is wrong with this car. There are about 4 or 5 things wrong which is the major problem. First off, car starts a bit late and idles nicely but there is a hint of unburnt gasoline coming from it. Not a major issue (yet) but could this be one or both OS sensors? The major issue why I am here is the cooling system. The overflow to this car runs all the water out after it heats up. Both of the radiator fans do not come on AT ALL so it overheats. I have changed the relay in the fuse box under hood for "cool fan mode" with no change and all the fuses seem fine (not sure about relays to each fan). I tried running down the wires from the fans and did not notice anything unusual. Is there a sensor that tells the fans to come on separate of the sensor near thermostat? Temp gauge in dash works. When I first started working on this, the radiator hose from the front of motor would stay cool and the hose running to thermostat (on right side of engine?) would get hot but with no pressure on either of them. I then bled the line and now both hoses get hot but not much pressure and now is when the water just pours out of overflow. I am trying not to spend too much on getting this running right again so I am looking for the cheapest ideas. Problems started when my niece let some wannabe change the water pump and thermostat for $20. Also, doubt this is connected but, it looks like someone cut a couple of wires that run to the front passenger wheel into the center hub. Well, that about sums it all up. I am sure I have forgotten something . Any and all ideas are appreciated. Thanks much! Also, the 250k+ miles are 95% highway miles.


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## Midnight Tech (Dec 31, 2001)

Ok, here goes...


> it looks like someone cut a couple of wires that run to the front passenger wheel into the center hub.


Those are the wires for the ABS sensor in the front hub assembly. It won't get a wheel speed from that corner, so ABS won't work on that wheel.



> Both of the radiator fans do not come on AT ALL so it overheats


This is gonna sound dumb, but do either of the fans come on when the air conditioner is turned on? 
There is a coolant temp sensor that tells the computer the fan is needed, but before I'd replace it, I'd have someone hook a scan tool to the car that has "data stream" capabilities to see what the sensor is telling the ECM and if it is requesting the fan to run.
BTW, is the "check engine" light on?


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

A wannabe changed the thermostat?? The biggest mistake that is often made is installing the thermostat upside-down.... the "pellet" *must* point towards the engine block and *not* the upper radiator hose.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks for the quick responses. Yes, the "check engine" light is on all the time. I never thought of turning on the AC due to it using a fan of it's own. Thanks for that one. The way the thing leaks water, I don't care to drive it anywhere for fear of having to walk two miles back lol. Would the scan tool that could read the sensor be one that can be purchased or is it the kind that a major shop would use?

As for the thermostat, I've had a mechanic and a "parts" guy say that they would have needed a hammer to put it in backwards. And that if they got it in, the housing would not fit over it. Thanks for the help so far. I am starting to pull my hair out.


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## Midnight Tech (Dec 31, 2001)

Please don't pull your hair out!
Yes, the scan tool you can buy can read that data stream if you get the right one...this one will give data stream and ABS info as well.

http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?R=BK_7002699_0006398374#


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok. Thanks for the advice on the data tool but that is out of the budget :sigh:. Is there any major parts chain that loans these types of tools out?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Oh and just checked to see if the fans will work while AC is on and they do... Is there a seperate sensor that tells them to go on or off with the AC and without? Thanks again.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

duplicate. sorry


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## octaneman (May 13, 2009)

Hi HatingFWD

The fans are switched on by the computer which gets the information by the coolant sensor, its location should be near the thermostat. What caught my attention was on your first post you mentioned that the engine was having a hard starting problem and that the check engine light is on. This is a clear sign that the computer temperature sensor has gone bad, the computer does not know how much fuel to give the system and is stuck in open loop mode. When this happens the computer believes that the engine is still cold and its giving the engine maximum fuel (rich mixture) hence the excess gasoline that you smell. In a situation such as engine overheating, the computer will pick up several codes in the process, the best course of action is erase the codes by disconnecting the battery for 2 minutes. Top off the engine coolant, with the engine cold disconnect the computer coolant sensor molex connector then by using a DVOM set it ohms scale and take it's resistance reading. Re-start the engine, bleed the system, and take the second readings with engine hot. The sensor's resistance will be high when engine is cold and low as the engine gets hot. If there is no change in readings as the engine warms up the sensor needs to be replaced. 

Note: Use a data sheet to compare your readings with manufacturers specs. 


post back your findings.


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## octaneman (May 13, 2009)

Addendum.

Noting that the fans switch on when the A/C is activated, eliminates any electrical problems from the fan to the fuse/relay box. The sensor on the condenser gives the signal for both relays to activate the fans which you have already confirmed work.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow. More great advice! So that sensor could keep the fans from coming on at all without AC being on even though the temp gauge in dash works? I did an ohms test on the sensor while it was about 170 degrees. The meter said it peaked well over 10k ohms, probably more, when it should have been about 400 ohms. So replacing the sensor by the thermostat is a step in the right direction? BTW, this is a great forum = ). Thanks for the help so far!


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## octaneman (May 13, 2009)

HatingFWD said:


> Wow. More great advice! So that sensor could keep the fans from coming on at all without AC being on even though the temp gauge in dash works? I did an ohms test on the sensor while it was about 170 degrees. The meter said it peaked well over 10k ohms, probably more, when it should have been about 400 ohms. So replacing the sensor by the thermostat is a step in the right direction? BTW, this is a great forum = ). Thanks for the help so far!



Correct on both counts. In this particular instance the temperature sensor is the computer's main source of information to activate the fan and control fuel delivery.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Since the fans run with the A/C does still overheat if you have the A/C on?
Some of those GM's had 2 different water pumps depending on how the belt goes on them if the wrong one is used the impeller spins the wrong direction and does not circulate the coolant.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

well, the car runs on the hot side even with AC on. And it still runs all water out after awhile out of the overflow. would changing the thermostat and the sensor beside it be a good starting place? I'm not sure about the belt routing. Will have to look at that next time I am able to get to the car which will probably be Sunday after 530 central. Can give more info then. Thanks yet again for the continuing help.


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## octaneman (May 13, 2009)

Here's the cooling fan schematic.


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## kjms1 (Jun 4, 2010)

HatingFWD said:


> well, the car runs on the hot side even with AC on. And it still runs all water out after awhile out of the overflow. would changing the thermostat and the sensor beside it be a good starting place? I'm not sure about the belt routing. Will have to look at that next time I am able to get to the car which will probably be Sunday after 530 central. Can give more info then. Thanks yet again for the continuing help.



what *octaneman* told you is exactly what i thought when i read your topic
Yes replace the temp sensor ... you can check the thermostat in a pan of hot water and see if it opens .... disconnect battery and clear computer then start and check

if it has been starting like that for awhile you may want to change the oil after you get this fixed cause the fuel will go by the rings real easy and mix in the oil hences breaking down the oil so it doesnt lube right any more


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

ok guys. Lots of ideas = ). As I stated above, I probably won't be able to do anything with it until sunday after 530-545 pm Central time. If you have the time, please check back on this post to see how things are progressing then. I would very much appreciate it! May have a few more kinks to work out heh. Thank you all for the help so far. I will keep it updated starting Sunday. Hopefully after 6pm I will have more to go on. Until then, ciao!


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, bad news. I changed the ECT sensor and disconnected the battery for a little bit. Maybe should have been longer than ten seconds. Anyways, plugged it back in and started the vehicle. Still started late and could still smell unburnt gas. The AC was on when I started it along with the fans. I shut the AC off while still running and the fans continued to run. However, shut the car off and turned it back on while still hot and the fans did not come on with the AC off. I did drive it until it reached about 10 degrees above center on the temp gauge. Took it home and water started pouring out of the overflow again. So after changing the sensor, there didn't seem to be any difference. Did not have my handbook for the car with me so could not tell if belt was routed correctly. Do I go ahead and change the thermostat now? Also, when the car is in gear and moving, it does a little "sputtering" but clears its throat after a bit of holding the pedal down. Does it every time I accelerate. Sorry it took so late to post but I have been busy this evening. Thanks again for all the help.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Are there bubbles in the radiator tank, or white smoke from the exhaust, does the exhaust have a sweetish smell?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Exhaust smells normal. Whatever you would expect from a car with 280,000 miles heh. I'm getting ready to voyage back that way to do some more tinkering. And of course, I'll have more questions. Thanks.

BTW, I cannot look into the radiator on this vehicle so don't know about the bubbles. I have bled the coolant line though.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

I have confirmed fans only work when AC is turned on. They stay on as normal when I shut the AC off but when I shut the car off and start again with AC off, fans do not come on. There has to be some other sensor that tells the fans to come on when car starts getting warm. I'm starting to get a feeling this problem is beyond my expertise.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

The bubbles will be in the coolant tank where the cap is, that's part of the pressure system on this.

Does the car still overheat and blow coolant out with the A/C and fans on?
If for example a head gasket is leaking compression into the cooling system the temp sensor will not read correctly if surrounded by air instead of water, and you would have bubbles in the tank or coolant blowing out of the tank from the excess pressure.

Autozone will hook a scan tool up for free to read codes not sure what type they use or if all stores have the same tool, they may be able to get a real time read out from the temp circuit and be able to tell if the ECM/PCM is commanding the fan on.

NAPA may offer the same service perhaps MT will let us know for sure.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

also, I have confirmed that the belt is routed correctly


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

i didn't notice bubbles in the tank just solid water pouring out. Ok omw to Autozone. Wish me luck!


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

It's not that the belt is routed incorrectly, some of those motors had 2 different part number water pumps, the impellers are made to spin in clockwise rotation on one part number and counter clockwise on the other part number, if for example part number A pump was removed and part number B pump installed the belt could be on correctly but the impeller is not moving enough water around the engine because it's designed to spin the other way around, you don't see it often but I have seen it before, and there is no way to tell without pulling the pump off. 

See if you can get a scan tool on it to check the temp sensor readout and the command state of the fan in the ECM.


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## Midnight Tech (Dec 31, 2001)

wrench97 said:


> Autozone will hook a scan tool up for free to read codes not sure what type they use or if all stores have the same tool, they may be able to get a real time read out from the temp circuit and be able to tell if the ECM/PCM is commanding the fan on.
> 
> NAPA may offer the same service perhaps MT will let us know for sure.


We do, and I'd think most others would as well - however ours cannot do data stream.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

hello again. Went to Autozone and he hooked up a scan tool that read everything but the cooling sensor. came up with bad OS #1 behind engine code #P0135, misfire cylinder #3 code #P0303 but have not noticed any water vapor coming from exhaust, EGR position sensor code #0404 and reader says it's running rich or lean on one bank code #P0172. I don't think any of those would be connected to cooling system. I think my last ditch effort is to just replace the thermostat as it would be easier than pulling water pump. If you guys do not hear from me again, i will have driven the vehicle off a cliff lol jk. Thanks for hanging with me so far! Maybe something will come up sometime I can offer advice.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry wrench97. Kept forgetting to answer your question. Yes, the car still runs hot when the AC is on. However. Temp gauge doesn't seem to change with or without AC on. It always reads about 2 or 3 notches above halfway point and has yet to officially hit the red.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

While your doing the thermostat take the belt off the water pump(first crank the engine and note which way the pulley is turning) with the thermostat out if you spin the pump by hand the coolant should come out the hole in the manifold where the thermostat sits, if it does not spin the pump the opposite way, if the coolant comes out spinning the wrong way the pumps wrong.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Forgot #3(?) misfire could be related if it's getting coolant in the cly. or loosing compression through the head gasket.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

ok. will try the belt idea tomorrow as i am getting a headache. head gasket has been changed by a professional within the last year. tomorrow i will pull the plug and take a look at it. the thermostat housing is a complete PITA to get to lol. will pull it out tomorrow around 10am central and reply asap. thanks again everyone.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

hi again. i don't know if this helps but with thermostat still installed, cranking the engine pushed water out of the hose going to the thermostat. would that mean water pump is pushing water wrong way or just that engine is looking for the path of least resistance? engine is cold and has not been started yet which i think would mean thermostat is still closed. do i need the housing off to do this correctly? thanks yet again for hanging with me. don't think i can do this myself.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Not a good sign but air in the system could account for it, I would pull the stat out to be sure.
To verify this started happening immediately after having the pump installed correct?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

as far as i know, all the cooling problems started after that idiot changed the pump. thermostat off now gonna try again after i put more water in


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

ok guys, just turned the pulley the correct way and water did pour out of stat housing and not the hose. good sign?


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Good sign, does the old stat look intact?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

it looks intact but has a bit of brown crud all over it


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Slimy brown like oil?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

not really slimy. more rust colored than anything. smells vaguely of rust.


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## Midnight Tech (Dec 31, 2001)

Dumb question - does it have green or orange antifreeze in it?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

the car uses dexcool antifreeze but the way it was leaking water, thats all i have been running thru it until i figure out the problem


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## Midnight Tech (Dec 31, 2001)

Wonder if someone may have put some of the "universal" or green in it at one time - that sounds a lot like the 2 types of antifreeze reacting. Has the cooling system been thoroughly flushed on the car?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

i think the universal stuff had been used for awhile. dont think its been flushed since they changed the headgasket


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

I think I am taking a break from this thing tomorrow. I will check under the car for any loose wiring that may be disconnected. Also, when I drove it after changing stat, it did not leak out NEARLY as much water as it had before. So that seemed to help. Main problem is still the cooling fans not turning on without AC. I'm going to try and continue to bleed the coolant line next time I am there (Thursday). Probably do it 4 or 5 times and see if that helps. Would using actual coolant possibly help in any way since it seems that it's not leaking but maybe a cup or two of water? And yet again, thanks for hanging with me. I would not have made it this far without all of you!


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Is there any way I can post a pic of a coolant line running from stat hose line to coolant tank? There is a significant kink in the aluminum line that I am concerned with. If I can post a pic, someone could tell me if it could be the problem. TIA!


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Ckick on the go advanced button below. 

In the advanced message box window at the to of the reply box is a button with a paper clip on it click that button, a new window will open click on the browse button select the file location on your PC, then click upload after it uploads the file select the close this window close button to go back to the reply box.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

There is a small aluminum line that runs into the thermostat housing that looks like it has been kinked at some point. Just want to know if that could be an issue. Thanks.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Where does the other end of the pipe go to the heater core, back to the radiator or somewhere else?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

It runs back into the top of coolant tank. Doesn't look like it gets much pressure because it has a rubber hose connected from the aluminum pipe to the coolant tank with the "pinch" clamps. Also, on another note, I could not get to the #3 cylinder to check the plug but after changing the stat and unplugging the #3 spark wire and replacing it, the check engine light hasn't come back on.

And to those of you who are still helping out, I really cannot say thank you enough for all the help, regardless if I get this fixed or not!ray:


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

All the parts of the cooling system will have the same pressure, normally 14-16 lbs depending on the radiator cap that's on it.

That is the fill pipe from the tank as long as it's not too kinked it should be ok.

Has it overheated since you installed the stat.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

There has been no change in temperature according to the gauge in dash. It hangs around a notch above center. According to the in-dash gauge, it has yet to overheat since I started working on it. Fans still do not work w/o AC on but DO work when it's on. That issue is driving me NUTS. To sum it up, I have changed the stat and the ECT sensor in manifold next to the stat and have checked wiring to the best of my ability. Next time I am there (probably tomorrow), I will jack the car up and look for anything unusual underneath.

Each time the water level has changed, I have bled the line.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Without the A/C on does the temp gauge go up higher or does the water start coming out first?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Temp gauge pretty much stays where it's always at. I don't notice water coming out while I am driving, but when I shut the car off and park it, it flows out like a river. That could just be that it has too much water in it. I may push it as far as I can and see if ALL the water runs out next time which is probably going to be Friday now.


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## octaneman (May 13, 2009)

You mentioned that you replaced the relay in the fuse box under hood for "cool fan mode". If you look to the diagram the mode relay activates the cooling fan relay grounding the fan when the circuit is closed by the computer. When the a/c relay is on, the mode relay also switches on activating both fans. The problem of switching lies within the computer, since that is not happening you will need to probe the wire to the computer and see if there is power going to the relay coil side of the computer. If nothing is present then the computer will need replacing. If replacing the computer is not an option, you may want to take an alternative route to by-pass the computer by hooking up a manual switch to activate the fan.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Ya I'm kind of doubting the computer being replaced is an option. Can I check that using the relay box under hood and where would I find a detailed diagram for the wiring for the box?


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## octaneman (May 13, 2009)

On my fourth post I provided a schematic of the cooling fans, all you really need to do is follow the color code wires to do your tests or any mods. If you plan on putting a manual switch, make sure that the switch can handle the load by looking at it's specs. Also use the existing wiring system of your car it will be allot quicker to set-up.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Oh ya, forgot about that heh. I will make a copy of that and try it Friday.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

well hello everyone again. i decided to stay in where its cool yesterday so no changes. however, i am curious if the fans are supposed to push air thru radiator or to pull air thru?


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Pull air through front to back, otherwise when you drive down the road the the fans would be pushing against the air flow.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

figured that wanted to make sure. also, i remembered that someone replaced the coolant tank along with the lvl sensor as i think they are all one part. could this be adding to the issue? thanks yet again!


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

can anyone tell me the sensor this belongs to? it is in front of ac and radiator about 4 inches away. has 2 wires/prongs and is connected to a 3-4 inch longg white ceramic looking thing. its attached to the frame behind grill.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

When I see sensors in front of the radiator I start to think air bags, but the ceramic part is throwing me.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

its one simple looking sensor about 3.5 inch long an about 1 or so inch wide. one bolt and it could be plastic. when i get home ill upload a photo. tried with my phone but couldnt figure it out so.... will send a pick within the nxt 2 hours. thanks for hanging with mr guys!


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

This is a pic of the sensor I was talking about.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

I think that's a resistor for something, I have seen them but never really looked to see what they hook to..............


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## Midnight Tech (Dec 31, 2001)

Does the climate center show outside temp? If it does, then that is the outside temp sensor.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Very possible. Don't remember if it does or not. I heard of a test that can be done over the coolant tank to see if a head gasket is blown. I am going to look into that. Thanks for the info!


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok. think i got some rough news. talked to a mechanic buddy of mine and first thing he said was head gasket. so i checked the oil after the car had ran for a minute or so and it appeared to look like milk chocolate, not clean or even dirty oil. waited a bit and checkd again this time it just appeared dirty. didnt notice any drops of water on dipstick. next thing i did was stuck my nose inside coolant tank and i could faintly smell exhaust fumes and the car had been of for some time. my mother's first thought was oil but there is no sheen i noticed. does this sound like i get to bust some knuckles open?


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Anything on the bottom of the oil fill cap that looks like a milk shake?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

I should be going back (35 mile drive) at least once more. I will check that out or have someone else do it.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok, took awhile, and if anybody is still following this problem, here is a couple of pictures of the oil cap. Does anybody know if there is a parts store that loans a screw-in cylinder compression gauge? I will be going back tomorrow. TIA!

PS, The cap was looked at when the engine had been off for several hours.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

That looks like oil only, The way I used to test them was with a fitting that screws into the spark plug hole and a shop air line hooks to the fitting then look for bubbles in the cooling system, a compression gauge will give you a good idea of what cylinder to look at if it's missing if it not missing it can get troublesome to find as the reading can be +/- 10-15 PSI for many other reasons.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

From the autozone scan they ran it said #3 is misfiring. If I could just get that stupid plug out, I think I could get a better idea. Does that trick you just talked about work with any cylinder or just the bad area? Probably a stupid question heh


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

It can be used on any cylinder the technique was originally used to hold the valves closed when changing valve seals with the head on the engine, but it was quickly discovered that it would also show a bad valve(if the valves are closed and air comes out the exhaust the exhaust valve is bad, out the carb/intake the intake valve, lots of air in the crankcase piston/rings bad) then when changing valve seals somebody noticed air bubbles in the radiator = head gasket/cracked head. Scan tools are good but only point you in the right direction #3 is a good place to start soak the plug with PB blaster or CRC overnight if it's stuck in there. You'll need to make sure the valves are closed the easiest way sometimes is to pull the valve cover and remove the rocker arms because at dtc the air will push the piston down.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Oh I'm not having problems getting the plug out, just getting TO the plug heh. Would it hurt anything if I was to carefully jack the back of the motor up an inch or two? I'm also worried since I cannot see the plug, that when I pull it out, lots of dirt or whatever will fall into cylinder so I'm going to have to find an air bubble and hopefully blow all the crap out first. This would be sooo much easier if it was in my shop! Don't wanna tow it unless I really am going to do some major work on it. Am I assuming correctly that a Chilton's manual will give me the correct torque specs to replace the rockers?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

And if I remove the rockers, will the valves shut with the air pressure?


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

The valve springs will shut the valves when the rockers are removed that's what the valve springs do close the valves.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Umm, duh. I should of known that lol. It's been a few years since I had grease on me = )

What about jacking the motor up careful not to crush the pan?


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## kjms1 (Jun 4, 2010)

if you get the plug out and it is super clean like it has been steam clean good chance thats your baby

Its no prob lifting the engine up a little but be careful not to break or bend anything
when ever i checked for Co2 in the water i used a Co2 tester ..... its just some colored die that changes color when it is in contact with Co2 ..... plus you can check it with a pressure tester attached to the rad and watch and see if the pressure goes up real hi and fast

hot exhaust 
take the oil dipstick and drop some of the oil from it on the hot exhaust ... if it just smokes its only oil if t sizzles all its got water in the oil


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Hi kjms1. That test is the one I heard about a few days back. Any idea on where I might be able to find one? Talked to some guys at O'Reillys and they had no clue what I was talking about. Thanks for confirming the guy wasn't pulling my leg heh.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Here is what they are talking about, but it will not isolate the cylinder and if the cylinder is not firing at all may not show up> http://www.unbeatablesale.com/wtd1175.html?utm_source=froogle4&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=WTD1175


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks for the link. It is a bit on the pricey side. Best saved until after I check that #3 first and then go from there. But like I said previously, I could absolutely swear I smelled exhaust in the coolant tank.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

There may be smaller size applications that's more of a shop tool setup intended to be used multiple times.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

well, got a couple of pics of the #3 spark plug. lets see if i can post them from my phone.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

guess it will have to wait again til i get home. its been worn down so bad, its got a gap over 2 times what is normal. think thats why its misfiring lol. i do see a very slight amount of rust colored deposits on the backside of the arc. also ceramic is fractured pretty bad. not sure when they were last changed.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

A picture is worth a thousand words


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## kjms1 (Jun 4, 2010)

Hating
its for real you can get the kit from the Snap-on or Mac or Matco tool trucks ... i cant remember how much it cost but i know its not to high $50 or so
go to a repair shop near you and ask them what day and time the tool truck comes by and then you will know the truck is in the area on that day 

The way Wrench told you to do it is a pretty good way to check it ... the one thing i would like to add to what Wrench said is some times you may only get the leak at high temperatures ... so try it cold and if you get nothing warm the car up and retest


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Well I'm trying to do this on the cheap so the test is going to be a last resort. I do have pictures now I am going to upload. 

Ok, First pic, Top right is plug from #3 which was misfiring. It seems to have a slight amount of rust behind arc and lots of brittle white-looking buildup.

Plug on left is from #1 if I remember correctly. Just appears to be burning a bit of oil.

Bottom plug is from #2 and seems mostly normal to me.

Second pic is the #1 and #3 plugs. Obviously, #3 is seriously worn down for some reason. 

Ok Doctors, what do you think is the diagnosis? = )


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## Midnight Tech (Dec 31, 2001)

#3 is in serious need of a new plug! The gap being burnt open that much is causing the misfire....but go ahead and replace all of them while you're under the hood.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Oh yeh, I will be doing that if it's worth it. But what do you think would cause that one to be much worse than the others? I'm thinking there may be water getting into #3 causing the plug to rust ever so slightly and thereby causing it to become weaker than the rest. So with each fire, it wears that much faster. That sound like a possibility?


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## octaneman (May 13, 2009)

No.3 plug has what appears to be ash deposits on the ground terminal, this can only mean that your engine has been running some bad oil, or additives have been added in the crankcase. Water is is not an issue with plug number three , if it were then the insulator would be completely white and there will be an absence of any deposits on it.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Looks like it has been running lean on that cylinder, where the single plug on the left looks fouled rich, are there codes in the ECM for the oxygen sensors?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

yea the test said o2 sensor upstream needed replaced. id hate to put too much money into this only to realize it has a bad head or gasket.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

I know what you mean, I've got one in the driveway currently trying to decide if it's worth the price of 2 air bags, module, bumper and hood


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Ya those airbags are expensive along with the module. Duct tape for bumper and hood!


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

I think I'm going to find a trailer and tow it somewhere and have someone do the diagnostics on the heads. Do you think it would be cheaper if I had all the plugs out and ready to go? Or will they need them to do testing? Let's not forget the main problem with this car is the cooling system keeps running out of water. I do think before I trailer the thing, I'm going to find the waterpump and turn it to see which way it's pushing the water. I have been unable to locate the stupid thing due to it looking like something I have never seen. Only thing I can find is the water outlet on the front of the engine. Is there any way somebody could dumb this down for me with a picture and/or arrow to the pump? Chiltons isn't very clear, at least to me. If that could be done, I would be very grateful! Thanks for sticking with me everyone!


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Ah it's the daughters car, like the conversation the other night my buddy suggested sticking a fake air bag replacement in the steering wheel and a bumper and hood, I said no not for the daughter, at which time my better half suggested if it was her car I would have all ready done that, I said no why waste the money on the fake stuff there's duct tape in the garage to hold the cover back on:laugh:


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

thats pretty good = )


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## kjms1 (Jun 4, 2010)

Hating it is not water in the cyl if water was getting in it that plug would be steam cleaned
with not a spot of carbon dirt or oil on it and the insulator would be clean & white again

if you take it to a shop just tell them to check for over heating DON'T give them the idea it may be a head gasket


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

How about if I tell them it blows all the water out of the overflow after a little while? BTW, I won't have any more posts until at least Monday. Got my little princess this weekend.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Just say it's losing water.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Will do. Keep it simple = )


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## kjms1 (Jun 4, 2010)

Yeah you can tell them that ... just dont think you should put such a big ticket item like headgasket in their heads


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

well guys, just pulled #6 plug and it was soaked with water and fuel. same head i thought looked as though there was water leaking between head and block. dont think i need to waste time with anymore tests. seems pretty conclusive the front head is a/the problem. any thoughts on that would be appreciated. thanks for hanging! BTW, anybody know the shops manual for hours to repair gasket? assuming thats the problem


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Head gasket, if you pull it apart check the head closely for cracks before and afer cleaning.


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Really of you have a blown head gasket, the head needs to be check and milled if required. 

BG


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Ya thats pretty much what I assumed. Now to find a trailer. Disassembly is free and easy. Anything I should look out for when tearing into this thing? Will I need to check valve lash? I don't really know what that is despite working with the innards of many Ford V8's. Should I change both while I'm that deep or just stick with the one thats bad? They both have been replaced already within 1 and a half years. I have a feeling I will either be starting a new thread or continuing to work this thread for all it's worth. As my name states, I really hate working with FWD!!!


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Also, the plug that was soaked with water wasn't clean much at all. Looked mostly like any other worn plug except only what I could explain as small rust spots on the ceramic part and various other small spots. Test at Autozone said nothing of that cylinder (think it's #6). Any thoughts on that?


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## kjms1 (Jun 4, 2010)

do one last thing to make sure its the head prob ... get a water pressure tester fill system with water then pump the system pressure up to 20 PSI let sit and see if the pressure drops ... then spin it over with # 6 plug out and see if water comes blasting out of the plug hole

Labor time on the left head is about 6 to 8 hours,, about 10 to 12 on both


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok good idea. Any idea if this is a tool that can be loaned by one of the big boy parts store?


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

had to check the plug again and this time it was dry. i did run the car for awhile so maybe it evaporated. ima crank it over wo startn it and plug out


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Not sure if the pressure tester is a loaner item, they are pretty common so it's possible.

Make sure the cooling system is full when testing.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

can someone tell me why the same plug that was soaked with water was completely dry after i ran the car for ten minutes? i did let the car cool off for 30 mins or so and then checked the plug. had no water on it whatsoever.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Did the cooling system have water in it?? 

Have you done a compression test....yet??


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

No compression test yet. And ya I added water but may have forgot to bleed the line. Guess I'll have to try it again heh.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Well......if you keep running the car you may do more damage. Do a few tests to check the integrity of the cooling system and whether the head/cyl is sealed. Testing the compression will indicate if the cylinder and/or valves are working as they should. A leak-down test will determine if the cyl will hold the pressure (compression) or how quickly it leaks or bleeds off. Pressurizing the cooling system with full water and spark plug removed (make sure the suspect cyl's piston is all the way at the top) will allow you to try and observe if water enters that cyl. If water is present you are done and the head will need to be removed to find out where the breach has occured. 

I hate front wheel drive, too!! Unless it is an inline engine....:grin:


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Finally towed the car to my shop yesterday. Cooling system test kit is available at O'Reillys for 150$ deposit, Autozone for 75$ deposit. Will do the compression test before I tear it open. When I start this, I'm probably going to need ALOT of help from you guys. Will be Monday or Tuesday before I get psyched enough to do this. Thanks for the advice so far guys! Wouldn't have made it here without it = ).


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## journeymanjeff (Sep 19, 2010)

hello so what came of this i am having exact same problem with a 2002 malibu was it the heads for sure ? i just can't figure it out


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

I haven't made it to taking the intake off yet so I have not made it that far yet. I am sure I will have more questions. Someone did say that it was very unlikely to have water leak into the cylinder from an intake gasket. I don't know if it's possible or not. Any answer for that guys?


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Intakes usually leak externally.


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## HatingFWD (Jul 9, 2010)

Sounds like I will have to wait and see what the intake gaskets look like. I can't wait! Thanks again.


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## rgreuling (Jul 15, 2011)

I've similar problems with cooling. As mine was always running low on water. I replaced water pump. I stopped the problem by pulling the intake (had to replace the noisy lifters) and installed new gaskets. The oil had water in it, but I couldn't figure out from where. The cylinder compression checks were good, and spark plugs looked good. Replacing the intake gaskets stopped the leaks, and solved the problem of water in the oil. The cooling resivoir looks clean. I've since had the car's cooling pressure-tested and the air bled from the cooling system because I'm experiencing overheating. Radiator shop ran the car to test the system and all was fine. Heated up to 180 and stayed there. Car overheats after I get off the highway or as I pull into my driveway. I can go for 30 miles and it runs fine, until I slow down. Both fans are on - hardwired and run right direction.. All's OK there. I want to pull the thermostat out and check that I have the correct pump. Can anyone tell me the part numbers and how to tell them apart?


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