# whats more recognized in the IT field ?



## bigblokey0 (Dec 28, 2008)

whats more recognized in the IT field is it 


A: Computer science degree ?

B: Qualifications like cisco and Microsoft ?


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

computer system engineering


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## misterecho (Sep 8, 2009)

it depends on what you want to do.

most professional positions here in the uk require a good degree. Cisco and microsoft certifications are VERY likly to be included in most degrees now also.

get experience and qualifications


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

Experience is the most important factor.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

what he said ^

Most employers will take a non qualified/certified candiate who has experience than one who has lots of certs or qulaification but no experience


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## Loope (Jun 10, 2009)

yep yep, schooling and certs aside is it not uncommon to finish school and get certified and still do an internship. Most job apps I've been looking at state that an entry level position requires 1-3 yrs of experience... crazy right an entry level position requiring a yr of experience. I'm currently working towards an A.A.S. in Computer Technology, Information, and Engineering, and hope to get A+ in May and still won’t fully qualify for some entry level positions until my yr internship is done.


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

But do you people think that this is a healthy trend?? Experience is something but everybody has to start from some zero point.. So companies should must take this into account...


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## Loope (Jun 10, 2009)

Right but start point around here now is an internship...


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

In my experience in the US, experience is king. I find it's more important than both to interview well. You want to project your ability to complete the work, and your confidence in yourself without coming across as arrogant.

My personal motto is "LTR" in an interview. "Listen, Think, Respond". It's ok to sit for a moment in silence while you consider your answer, as long as your answer is accurate. If you don't know do NOT try to BS it.


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

greenbrucelee said:


> what he said ^
> 
> Most employers will take a non qualified/certified candiate who has experience than one who has lots of certs or qulaification but no experience


This is very true. I obtained my CCNA last year with a passing score of 910 out of 1000. Every NOC job I applied for after I got the cert opted for the experienced guys over my certification and rightly so. I have the knowledge in my head, but I often refer to manuals and the Cisco support site to sort out issues, that an experienced tech would resolve in 1/10th the time.

If you are not working in the field now, take any support job you can now. Even if it's largely non technical, gaining experience in user interaction and support will go a long ways for you.


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## 2xg (Aug 5, 2009)

It doesn't matter if you have Comp Science degree or Cisco or you're MCSE........I'm with all of you, just like what Eng. Babar said Exp. is the most impt. factor. I had a couple of job interview couple of years ago and 90% of the questions are technical questions and answers are all related to your experience. Certs are now just optional. Interviewers still ask for it but again it's more about your experience.


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
Franklin P. Jones




Loope said:


> Right but start point around here now is an internship...



Rightly said, But do you think that 6 months or 1 year experience is enough to get a good position in any company??


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## Loope (Jun 10, 2009)

Engineer Babar said:


> But do you think that 6 months or 1 year experience is enough to get a good position in any company??


Hardly, but a year and a good referance will help get your foot in the door.


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

Show up, work hard. Spend a bit of your personal time at home learning new skills. If you put forth the effort to separate yourself from the pack, someone will notice. Might be with a new company, but someone will notice.

There is no quick road into a new career.... well maybe real estate. But there is no quick road into a technical career.


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## Loope (Jun 10, 2009)

well said FreeNerd...


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

I think loope also said right.. Nowadays a good reference also plays a role... Consider for sometime that we are the nephews and nieces of Bill Gates and how come we don't get a good position in Microsoft??:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## bigblokey0 (Dec 28, 2008)

well my plan is to do my mcdst course at college whilst trying to get on the job training in the IT field


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

bigblokey0 said:


> well my plan is to do my mcdst course at college whilst trying to get on the job training in the IT field


That is the best idea

Certifications and qualifications along with experience is better than someone who has lots of certifications and no experience but experience can beat everything.

I know a guy who's only qualification is 9 GCSEs he did a school and his best grade was a D in English but because he worked part time in an IT repair shop until he left school at 16 he walked straight into an IT job doing systems analysis.

He now earns £250000 a year and has just moved to the states to work for a company in Boise doing consultancy and he is only 29.

Since gaining experience he has gotten lots of certs including the one (can't remember the name of it) where you can only get it if invited to do it by Microsoft.


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## bilbus (Aug 29, 2006)

Get a degree, you can get a cert later.

Unless you want to be stuck doing tech support for your whole life .. a degree is worth more.


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

bilbus said:


> Get a degree, you can get a cert later.
> 
> Unless you want to be stuck doing tech support for your whole life .. a degree is worth more.


Completely inaccurate advice for the technical field. You might need the degree to get to the Sr. Management level, but for technical administration jobs experience is king.

I can recall two or three guys fresh out of college with big degrees asking me questions on how to support technology they had the knowledge to support, according to their degrees anyway.

Most fields the degree is key, in Information Technology proven ability to do the work rules, not a degree. 

If you do want the degree, get a job with a large company doing support and let them cover as much of the degree as possible. Getting the degree first will leave you an "educated idiot" in the IT field.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

FreeNerd said:


> Completely inaccurate advice for the technical field. You might need the degree to get to the Sr. Management level, but for technical administration jobs experience is king.
> 
> I can recall two or three guys fresh out of college with big degrees asking me questions on how to support technology they had the knowledge to support, according to their degrees anyway.
> 
> ...


I totally agree.

In these days a degree is bollocks unless you are trying to get into management, I know people who haven't really got any qualifications but have experience and I know for a fact that they are more valuable to an employer than some douche with a degree who was probably stoned most of the time during his degree.

The best way to do is to get an entry level job, get some some certs whilst working and do a degree part time whilst working. But that being said a degree doesn't mean too much these days especially with all the crap degrees about like media studies etc


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

With the cost of college elevated beyond the reach of most middle class families and the middle class eroding every year expect the degree to mean less and less in real businesses and go back to being a symbol of privilege.

Universities are on the edge of pricing themselves out of relevance, and accredited technical schools are popping up everywhere.

My advice to my son is going to be without a scholarship, pick your field and get to work early. By the time those who went to college graduate he'll have experience and a valuable skill set. With both of them commanding the same salary, the difference will be the graduate has 100k in debts to pay off.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

and he will have money in his pocket and could do a degree part time at night after his work if he wanted to.


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## bilbus (Aug 29, 2006)

lol. Every employer I have ever worked for required a collage degree to work in IT. Thats not to say you would be considered if you did not have field knowledge or tech skills.

Skipping collage is a very bad idea and will severally limit your job choices.

You will not be any level of management without a collage degree. If you want to be making 10$ a hour being in help desk for your whole life skip a degree.


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

bilbus said:


> lol. Every employer I have ever worked for required a collage degree to work in IT. Thats not to say you would be considered if you did not have field knowledge or tech skills.
> 
> Skipping collage is a very bad idea and will severally limit your job choices.
> 
> You will not be any level of management without a collage degree. If you want to be making 10$ a hour being in help desk for your whole life skip a degree.


Go read some online IT job postings. 90% or more say "degree or equivalent". I have beat out guys with degrees for jobs on 2 separate occasions. The only people I know who still try to defend a degree in the IT field are those that have them and want to hold on to what they feel should be an advantage.

I have no degree, I make more now than I was told I would when I completed my degree in college. Friends of mine who stuck it out make less than I do with a degree and know less about systems administration to boot.

Technology changes so fast, that just about everything you learn in year one will be obsolete in year 4 when you graduate. If you want the degree that's fine, but earn it part time with an employer paying for it.

Unless your going to MIT that is....


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## Engineer Babar (Jul 17, 2009)

bilbus said:


> Get a degree, you can get a cert later.
> 
> Unless you want to be stuck doing tech support for your whole life .. a degree is worth more.


I also support this idea.. An Engineering degree with a certification will be best.. As far as the technical field is concerned.. I know a lot of my senior Engineers who recently graduated.. They all prefer CCNA after doing Engineering..


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

Note that the only ones supporting the idea are those who have degrees. The IT field is full of highly qualified individuals with and without degrees.

Get a job working support, get a few certs, let the company pay you for your degree while working and going to school part time. Sure it'll take longer than if you just went to school, but when you do graduate you'll have real world experience, certifications, and a degree. 

Ask people you know how many of them got a high paying technical administrator position with just a degree and no experience.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

FreeNerd said:


> Note that the only ones supporting the idea are those who have degrees. The IT field is full of highly qualified individuals with and without degrees.
> 
> Get a job working support, get a few certs, let the company pay you for your degree while working and going to school part time. Sure it'll take longer than if you just went to school, but when you do graduate you'll have real world experience, certifications, and a degree.
> 
> Ask people you know how many of them got a high paying technical administrator position with just a degree and no experience.


This ^

Unfortunately in todays society a degree doesn't mean a great deal but a degree with experience does.

Trust me when I say this. An employer will take anyone who has experience and a normal education over someone who has no experience and a degree it is as simiple as that.

Would I want someone with a degree and no experience running my network or would I want someone with networking administration experience even if the were a high school drop out. I'd take the latter.

Think of it this way someone who doesn't work with CISCO gear shouldn't be going for the CCNA because it would over certify them for their experience level if someone came to me for a job and said they had the CCNA and no cisco gear experience I would refuse their application but if they did work with CISCO equipment or had job experience of it and had no certifications or qualifications I would hire them and advise them to study the CCNA.

This is how the world works today

And just to add if anyone out there is studying a degree for IT make sure your on a degree that provides a placement year in a job, make sure your doing a placement that you want to do and be prepared for the shock that IT isn't paid aswell as it was 10 years ago and never believe these adverts on TV that claim the average IT salary is 37k because it isn't unless you have atleast 5 years experience in a high level position.


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## bilbus (Aug 29, 2006)

lol ccna? haha that is nothing .. its like network + but slightly harder.

37k? wow i bet those people don't have degrees

Regardless, a degree is a smart investment ... disagree if you want, but having a degree is always better then not. Plus not having a degree is just embarrassing.


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

bilbus said:


> lol ccna? haha that is nothing .. its like network + but slightly harder.
> 
> 37k? wow i bet those people don't have degrees
> 
> Regardless, a degree is a smart investment ... disagree if you want, but having a degree is always better then not. Plus not having a degree is just embarrassing.


A degree used to be a smart investment. College is so expensive that if you don't have a scholarship or a company covering most of the cost the tuition is a huge burden.

You can't file bankruptcy on college loans... College itself is more about big business than educating students.

37k is what I was told I could make with my Network Administration degree. I took a job during school and with my support experience I surpassed that salary mark in less than a year. I am now even farther along in my career and struggling with the concept of returning to get a degree that will ultimately get me nothing more than I make now.

I will return to it one day, but for now I am too busy learning and doing every day to worry about a degree.


*Conclusion::
Go to work now, get certs that are relevant to your current position and if possible attend school part time on the company dollar.*


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

37k is what most training providers that over certify people spout as the what someone will earn in IT (in the UK they do anyway).

These places need banned.

If I could go back in time I would have worked and got certs and then my degree part time. I got myself in to loads of debt and have been paying it off for years. I would have been in better position experience wise, financially wise and more secure in my job role.

Not everyone who gets a degree gets a good paying job straight away and in some peoples cases it can take years regardless of how good a degree they got.

A degree used to be a magic qualification that secured peoples futures they don't anymore.


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## bilbus (Aug 29, 2006)

Well, if you get a degree in anything, you can switch out of IT later. If you don't you will be a uneducated person looking for a crappy job. I would prefer to have a CS degree and look for a management job somewhere then just a HS degree find that IT is not working out and be SOL

I prefer to hedge my bets.


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## FreeNerd (Sep 16, 2009)

bilbus said:


> Well, if you get a degree in anything, you can switch out of IT later. If you don't you will be a uneducated person looking for a crappy job. I would prefer to have a CS degree and look for a management job somewhere then just a HS degree find that IT is not working out and be SOL
> 
> I prefer to hedge my bets.


True. But you'll have a years old degree you have not used in years, and while you may edge out others with no experience at all, you'll be beat by candidates with recent experience and no degree in the field.


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## bilbus (Aug 29, 2006)

A degree is a degree.

If you have a old degree, you would have to have experience .. unless after collage you went traveling the world.

I would prefer to have no experience and a degree, then no experience and no degree.

You can get a degree and certs at the same time they are not exclusive.

All i am saying is you are selling your self short by skipping a degree.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

we are all agreeing here just that we are crossing.

IT these days is not exclusive to people who have degrees it's only the HR departments who hire but know nothing about IT epsecially the ones who advertise for a MCSE candidate to work on a help desk.

Yes a degree can help you but regardless of your qualifications experience is king.

I know a lot of people with degrees and I can categorically state you that some of those people do not have a clue when it comes to operating in the 'real world'. 

I would rather hire someone who has a bit of 'real world experience' and on the job experience rather than some rich boy who doesn't have any experience.

If I have kids and when they grow up ofcourse I want them to get a degree but I would be telling them to seriuosly consider their options before embarking on a degree especially if they wanted to work in IT.

There are so many people out there now wanting to get into IT and so many of them using braindumps and cheat sheets to pass certs to help them get into IT that this has devalued the IT field and so the wages have dropped for new starters a lot.

This is why I say get the experience and some certs first before a degree.


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## dadof3 (Oct 15, 2009)

Experience trumps certs and degrees. 
I worked I.T. for the las vegas casinos, my last few years on the job in vegas I worked the swing shift. The company I worked for liked to hire temps and test them out, so my shift was the training shift. 

Long story short, most of the temps that had numerous certs or college degrees were the biggest failures. The temps with at least 5 years of exp. were the best.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

dadof3 said:


> Experience trumps certs and degrees.
> I worked I.T. for the las vegas casinos, my last few years on the job in vegas I worked the swing shift. The company I worked for liked to hire temps and test them out, so my shift was the training shift.
> 
> Long story short, most of the temps that had numerous certs or college degrees were the biggest failures. The temps with at least 5 years of exp. were the best.


exactly my point.


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

Certainly an interesting thread. Not too long ago, it was rare to find someone with a degree and a goal towards Systems or Network Administration. Certifications were golden. I suspect employers are looking to whittle down huge lists of electronic applicants. Hmmm, If I filter out applicants without a CCNA, I get 500 remaining. Too many. If I filter on CCNA and an AS Degree, 30 matches... And those 30 get an actual human looking at them. 

Of course the other elephant in the room is age. Youth is king for breaking into the IT field right now. In part due to the cost of private background checks, which cost the employer significantly more for the older potential employee. 

As for experience, it is a strange fact that those that are employed in the field now will continue to find employment, even though they may not be the best employees. Those that have been victims of the economy and seek employment are considered second rate potential applicants. Which to me contradicts the logic of hiring someone who can truly appreciate a less than desirable position only after being without one for so long.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

Suncoast said:


> Certainly an interesting thread. Not too long ago, it was rare to find someone with a degree and a goal towards Systems or Network Administration. Certifications were golden. I suspect employers are looking to whittle down huge lists of electronic applicants. Hmmm, If I filter out applicants without a CCNA, I get 500 remaining. Too many. If I filter on CCNA and an AS Degree, 30 matches... And those 30 get an actual human looking at them.
> 
> Of course the other elephant in the room is age. Youth is king for breaking into the IT field right now. In part due to the cost of private background checks, which cost the employer significantly more for the older potential employee.
> 
> As for experience, it is a strange fact that those that are employed in the field now will continue to find employment, even though they may not be the best employees. Those that have been victims of the economy and seek employment are considered second rate potential applicants. Which to me contradicts the logic of hiring someone who can truly appreciate a less than desirable position only after being without one for so long.


Good point although I disagree on the youth thing. I'd take a 60 year old if they knew what they were doing over some kid who thinks he knows what he is doing.

As for certs there are too many brain dumpers at the minute, some don't realise they've been cheating but most do. This makes it hard to whittle those people down.


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## perryny (May 11, 2009)

As someone who hires consultants, and I've hired several dozen over the years, I can tell you that when I'm looking at a resume, I'm looking at experience first.

I'm going to be sending this prospective employee into my client's offices. These customers of mine are going to be evaluating this new consultant to see if he seems as qualified as the other consultants I have servicing them.

Real-world experience will give this new consultant the best shot at making a solid first impression.

After experience, I place equal weight on both college and technical training. Both show initiative towards self-improvement, discipline and an effort to excel.

My business supports small businesses exclusively. So I believe any intelligent computer tech I hire should have the mental capacity to quickly learn the systems he's been hired to support. Seeing on their resume either a college degree or certification training will help instill this confidence for me.

But then I'll conduct the interview and the story often changes dramatically.

-Robert


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## Suncoast (Jul 28, 2009)

My reference to youth had to do with employers looking to fill entry level positions. Such as those being retrained through career transition programs by many community college and tech schools. 

As for the Certification issue, there are those that earned that knowledge through formal training. Do you look at that as well? What kind of grades did they receive? Was the training done in a "hands on" environment or a virtual one? I keep a copy of my College grades, yet I have never been asked for them. 

And at first I was completely surprised hiring firms do not create their own tests as part of the application process. Some resume's simply do not show well, mine included. Instead of filtering out people to hire based exclusively on resume's, what about testing them? Create a basic online test. Bring them in for a more controlled test if they pass that. Then bring the highest scoring back for the Interview process. I know I have the time available. None of the hundreds of applications or the few interviews I have received have done this. For me anyway, the interview itself is so stressful I am not at my best for answering complex technical and logic questions. That type of screening process seems more appropriate to me for the on-site consultant or a help desk position.

And speaking of Consultants, where are the interns? While the Software Consultant has been around for decades, the technical consultant is relatively new. There are many of us that would be very interested in a chance to get into this rapidly expanding specialty field. Even if it started as a no pay to minimum wage internship.

I appreciate your comments and insights into what hiring managers are thinking and looking for in today's job market, thank you.


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## bigblokey0 (Dec 28, 2008)

well for an update Ive actually secured an IT support position in the local hospital starting with a couple of days a week when i was interviewed i asked what it is they look for and they said experience comes top then certs but equal to that was communication skills its no good being a great tech if you cant communicate with customers. The hospital has around 800 pcs that's not including laptops,tablets and pda's so i should gain loads of experience, it will be unpaid work experience but they said they have positions opening up all the time and that i would be offered them in the future gotta say im well chuffed and im really looking forward to it.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

bigblokey0 said:


> well for an update Ive actually secured an IT support position in the local hospital starting with a couple of days a week when i was interviewed i asked what it is they look for and they said experience comes top then certs but equal to that was communication skills its no good being a great tech if you cant communicate with customers. The hospital has around 800 pcs that's not including laptops,tablets and pda's so i should gain loads of experience, it will be unpaid work experience but they said they have positions opening up all the time and that i would be offered them in the future gotta say im well chuffed and im really looking forward to it.


Congratulations 

Yep communication is a key factor if your an IT tech or IT support guy, so if people have customer orientated experience this can help in securing positions in IT all be it low level stuff if the candidate hasn't got loads of IT exp.

Any experience is good experience, if you put on your cv that you have done unpaid IT work along with your communications skills plus a couple of entry level certs like A+,N+ and MCDST then your laughing when you go for further work.

Congratulations again.


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## DarrilGibson (Nov 12, 2009)

Congrats.

Yes. Communications is important, and a signicant part of that is the ability to get along with others. I've seen people get into jobs above their level, but once the company has hired them, the company is willing to help them learn on the job.

On the other hand, I've seen extremely talented people get let go within a week because they can't get along with others. 

You can consider this a test run to see if you can get along with others, as much as a test run to see if you can help them.

I'm not sure what "well chuffed" is but I'll assume it's a good thing. Good luck.

Darril Gibson




bigblokey0 said:


> well for an update Ive actually secured an IT support position in the local hospital starting with a couple of days a week when i was interviewed i asked what it is they look for and they said experience comes top then certs but equal to that was communication skills its no good being a great tech if you cant communicate with customers. The hospital has around 800 pcs that's not including laptops,tablets and pda's so i should gain loads of experience, it will be unpaid work experience but they said they have positions opening up all the time and that i would be offered them in the future gotta say im well chuffed and im really looking forward to it.


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## richncarrie (Nov 30, 2009)

Great thread, especially for somebody like myself who is currently training to switch to the IT field. After 17 years as a chemical processor in a factory, I've maxed out on pay and promotions while aquiring a skill set that doesn't afford me many options in the current economy. I'm attending the school everyone hears about on the radio (I know, I know) but for my situation it seems to be a decent choice as it offers hands-on training as well as job search/interview services. I'm honestly not that worried about finding employment when it's time, because my wife was in a similar situation three years ago when the factory she was working for shut it's doors. She was actually in over her head with the schooling, but interviewed well and found a position at a local school district earning about what she did as a production line leader while earning that oh-so-valuable experience, all before finshing her classes and without ever passing a certificaton. Long story short - she moved on to another employer after 18 months and makes over $40k. Not bad, considering where we live and her minimal training.

I'll have to agree that communication skills and experience are heavily weighted in the hiring process. But then, I won't find out for myself until next summer...


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

Employers value experience over everything because there are degrees out there that undervalue proper degrees just like there are people cheating to get certs which have undervalued the certification industry and the IT industry as a whole.


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