# RAM drive slower than HDD?



## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

*RAM drive slower than Hard drive?*

Hello. I've been trying to eliminate frame hitching in open world games, as in when the game freezes for half a second while it waits for the textures and data to be loaded from the hard drive, and I was told to use a RAM drive, and that it would theoretically eliminate all loading lag since RAM is (theoretically) even faster than SSD's. The game I tested was Fallout 3.

I felt it was too good to be true(I mean if it works why doesn't everyone do it?), and guess what, it was. After creating the RAM drive using a program called RAMDisk, I copied the entire game into it, and ran it from the executable in it. The frame hitching not only became twice as frequent, it now lasted longer(for a whole second). So reading from the RAM was even slower that reading from the HDD.
I'm sure I didn't run out of physical RAM, I monitored the graph in taskmgr and the maximum used was 7.1 GB, and I have a total of 8 GB. So isn't 0.9 GB of free RAM space enough to stop the system from slowing sown, or do I need more RAM?


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## LMiller7 (Jun 21, 2010)

I am not really a fan of RAMdisks. They were quite useful back in the old days of DOS but those days are long gone. Modern operating systems have a sophisticated caching system that provides most of the advantages of a RAMdisk with fewer problems. In most situations a RAMdisk is a poor use of memory. The system can usually make better use of it on it's own.

There are legitimate uses for a RAMdisk but not many.

How big is the RAMdisk?

You can't simply move a modern game like that. You may have copied the game to a RAMdisk but that doesn't mean that the game will use it. It may be using the files on the hard disk because that is where the installation registry entries say they are. Every game and application is different.

The memory usage graph in Windows is often misunderstood. It is often believed that the memory not shown as being in use is actually free and unused. Most of it is not. The large portion of this "not in use memory" is on the standby list which is very much in use and essential to good performance. Only memory that is labeled as "Free" is actually unused.

I am not a gamer so cannot say for certain that a RAMdisk is not good here. But I strongly suspect it is not.


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

Actually RAM drives are far superior to OS caching, which would need you to load the data into the RAM from the HDD first before it can be used faster the next times, which would cause lagging in a game every time something new happened(like entering a new area or opening the inventory). But in RAM drives everything is already in the RAM to begin with(as in before you even launched the game), so no lagging and frame stuttering during games will ever happen since the hard drive will never be used in-game. And according to most benchmarks I've seen, RAM drives are exponentially faster than any other disk drives (including SSD's).

I just checked to see it is still using the files on the hard disk: I deleted the original game from the Hard drive so that the only place left where the game files are located is on the RAM drive, and I launched the game successfully, and the lagging is same as before. So that's definitely not the problem.

So we can narrow it down to not enough free space in memory? How exactly can you tell how much memory is actually Free? Cause I'm getting the feeling that I've really run out of physical memory and there's some page swapping going on in-game, cause I could clearly hear those annoying HDD sounds during the game.

Oh sorry forgot to mention, the RAM Drive is the same size of Fallout 3: 5.7 GB, just enough for it to fit.


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## LMiller7 (Jun 21, 2010)

A RAMdrive is superior to file caching in that it exists from the beginning. But you are paying a price for this advantage. You are taking precious RAM away from OS control to store files that may not be frequently accesses, or in some cases hardly at all. The system cache devotes RAM to files that will benefit most from it.

A further problem is that files in the RAMdisk will also be cached if they are frequently accessed. This happens because it is a file cache and Windows knows nothing of where the files are stored or the spacial nature of a RAMdisk. This means further wastage of RAM.

A RAMdisk does indeed speed access to files stored there. But the price is paid in overall system performance. By implementing a RAMdisk you are essentially saying that
you know better than the OS where files should be stored. You may be right, but the odds are against it.

With usage of 7.1 Gb from 8GB you may have memory issues. A screenshot of Task Manager - Performance tab would reveal a lot.

Edit: just noticed your most recent post. A RAMdisk that is 5.7 GB in size out of a total of 8 GB is much too large. Memory pressure is probably quite severe and that is most likely the cause of your problem. What you have left barely meets the minimum requirements for 64 bit Windows 7.


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

I believe I have definitely found the problem. I need more RAM. 
Not only can I still hear heavy HDD sounds coming from the case during gameplay(which I shouldn't if there was enough physical memory available); 
but then I also tried to place only the savegame files into a 1GB RAM Drive and leave the rest of the game on the Hard Drive. So I then launched the game(from the hard drive), and all the saved games appeared *instantly* whereas when the the savegame files were located on the Hard Drive it took them about 5 seconds to appear, indicating that the RAM drive worked as it should if its size was small. But if I place both the game and the saved games on a large RAM drive then the saved games will take even longer to load then if they were on the hard drive. I think it's clear that 8 GB just isn't enough.

So if files in the RAMdisk will also be cached, should I disable windows caching? If so how?

Here is a screenshot of task manager:








Edit: The usage part where I was playing Fallout 3 is that highest line you see reaching well above 7GB, cause this screenshot was taken a few minutes after I had stopped playing.


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## LMiller7 (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't know anything about disabling caching but hardly think this would be desirable. Creating a RAMdisk and proposing to disable caching is like saying "I know better than the system memory manager." That kind of thinking puts you on very shaky ground.

I am a firm believer in letting Windows manage memory as it wills. Manual intervention is almost always harmful.


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

Hey I can always turn it back on. As you said, files in the RAMdisk will also be cached if they are frequently accessed causing unnecessary RAM usage, so it's worth a try.

Is there some kind of tutorial on how to disable it? I don't even know what it's called, is it called windows caching? Or maybe RAM caching?

Just figured it out. It's called "Windows 7 SuperFetch". It can be disabled very easily:
1- Load the Services window by typing services.msc in Start Search. Once open, locate the SuperFetch key.
2- Now double-click the SuperFetch key and it will open the Properties dialog window.
3- * To stop superfetching just for now, hit the Stop button.
* To disable it permanently, change the dropdown to Disabled.

Disabling this service is really useful if you're running a game on a RAM drive with insufficient physical memory.

Small note: Disabling Superfetch didn't work. Obviously the system still needs more than 8 GB of RAM. I guess the only fix is upgrading to 16 GB of RAM.

Large note: Disabling Superfetch doesn't stop Windows 7 from using lots of RAM for caching, I guess there's something else to turn off.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

Windows doesn't _need_ 8GB of ram. Windows 7 can run quite well under 1GB or even 512MB.

What you need to look into is your disk. That is the bottleneck. Not the ram. Messing with the ram is just asking for issues.

Try to defrag the disk, and possibly check a SMART report. If your cpu and graphics meet the requirements for the game, but you are still getting small instances of lag when you load, the issue is the hard drive.


Or if you want to take the hard path, why don't you buy a "ramdisk" that is a _dedicated_ disk?
It is called an SSD. A 32 or 16GB SSD can be gotten for a reasonable price for dedicated programs or for cache


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## Tyree (May 10, 2009)

What processes are you doing?
8GB of RAM should be more than enough unless you're doing very intense graphics work or running CAD.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

He is making a 5.7 gb ramdisk to put the entire game into, leaving only 2.3 usable by windows and the game in memory. By far not enough


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

If your hearing lots of noise from your hard disk you need to test it because a HDD should not make lots of noise. 8GB is plenty for games and windows.

RAMdisks are not needed since dos 6.2


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

wkw427 said:


> Windows doesn't _need_ 8GB of ram. Windows 7 can run quite well under 1GB or even 512MB.
> 
> What you need to look into is your disk. That is the bottleneck. Not the ram. Messing with the ram is just asking for issues.
> 
> ...


Loading lag is a fact with all open world games.
And SSD's won't get rid of it, they're not fast enough. I would only believe an SSD would eliminate loading lag if I see a side by side video comparing the performance of an SSD to an HDD while running a game. 90% of what I've read says that SSD's will eliminate load hitching without any proof, but the other 10% that have personally bought an SSD and compared it with an HDD have said that the hitching did not go away. I've learned not to believe anything I read on the internet unless its backed up with videos or benchmarks. Same as all those dipsticks who kept saying that quad core CPU's are the best and coolest for gaming, far superior to dual cores which would bottleneck, and how they "felt" it was much faster and smoother in games, which I believed and which made me buy one. And then I saw the actual game benchmarks of how the dual core i3's were performing just as well as multicore i5's and i7's, and in some cases the i3 outperformed them, even on the most modern games.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

ssd's help with loading times and with games where they keep saving to the ssd. But you can use them for dedicated apps and games only which make those apps and games run a lot faster.

My system for example takes 14 seconds to boot and I run most of my games of steam. I am yet to have any game slow down or have any loading lag and I run everything at high or ultra depending on the games settings.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

HDDs are horrible for random reads/writes.
If a game has to load a 3MB texture, the platters have to spin into position for the head to read it, and if fragmented, the head must read from more then one spot on the drive.

SSDs have massivly faster random read/write speeds. There are no moving parts. 

Truth be told, since I've started to put select games on my SSD (like skyrim), I have ZERO open world lag, or slowness.

SSDs are better than conventional HDDs in _every_ aspect with the exception of capasity and in older models, lifespan

Quad-core CPUs are also superior to dual core CPUs if:
-The program is optimized for more than one core
-If optimized for only one, allows windows to do more on the OTHER cores freeing up power for the one core


OR, 
A new race car is faster than the '86 voltswagon your grandfather gave you.
Four dollars is better than two dollars.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

wkw427 said:


> HDDs are horrible for random reads/writes.
> If a game has to load a 3MB texture, the platters have to spin into position for the head to read it, and if fragmented, the head must read from more then one spot on the drive.
> 
> SSDs have massivly faster random read/write speeds. There are no moving parts.
> ...


This

I run skyrim I also have the patch that includes the quad core optimization and the one that uses more than 2GB RAM. I have never had lag since I got my ssd and that patch.


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## Tyree (May 10, 2009)

The primary, and about the only, advantage to SSD's are in fact there fast loading and access time.


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

Is there any way to clear the RAM cache?
Cause I think the game is using the hard drive cause whenever I fill the RAM drive with a game, the RAM cache will immediately jump from 700MB to 4 or 5 GB leaving 0 free RAM. I think windows memory management never took into consideration that someone would want to use the RAM as storage space.
I have tested games as small as 2 GB on the RAM drive, I still get the same result, long load times and in-game loading lag.
So does anyone know how to free up the RAM?


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

delete half the crap you have running in the background i.e processes.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

When you say "ram cache", are you refering to the ramdisk you created? If so, delete the files/folders you put on the ramdisk.

If you're asking how to remove programs from memory as Windows puts them in there, just exit the program.

Testing smaller games on the ramdisk isn't going to help if the ramdisk is still 5.7GB.

Here is a rundown of how windows manages open programs.

Program that is NOT running: 5.7GB on the disk. Disk not being accessed
Program that IS running: 5.7GB on the disk, ~2GB* in memory (ram)
Program that IS running AND loading: 5.7GB on disk, ~2GB* in memory (ram), disk being accessed to load

*=not all programs can use or will use more than 2GB of memory. If Fallout is anything like Skyrim, without any modifications it won't use more that 2GB of ram.

Also, I know for a fact that windows 7 base with minimal things running uses about 1.8GB of memory out of 8.
So lets do the math

8
-5.7 (ramdisk)
=2.3 GB free
-1.8 (windows)
=512MB free
Windows proiritizes memory usage over applications. Any required memory that goes over what you have goes to the page file, which is on the hard drive, which must be read/written a lot, which leads to disk thrashing, which leads to lower speeds when trying to load the game. So now you have

Program that IS running: 5.7GB in memory used up by the game's directory, 512Mb of memory dedicated to the game, 1.5GB of the game in the page file, page file being r/w on the disk

*So with the ram risk you starve the system for memory, which leads to MUCH more disk activity, which is MUCH worse than if you left everything as it is and loaded normally.*

Also, you haven't checked SMART. For all we know your disk may have read errors which would lead to slow everything period.


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

1- I always run all games with game booster, and even terminate explorer.exe.
2- By Ram cache I mean that part in Task Manager that says "Cached Ram".
3- I always set the size of the RAM disk to the size of the game I'm putting in it.
4- Fallout 3 *does not* use 2 GB of RAM, it uses less that 512 MB. That "2 GB RAM" you see in Fallout's recommended requirements takes into consideration that you have many processes running in the background and eating up RAM. It's a recommendation of how much RAM your computer should have to run the game, not how much RAM the game itself will use.

I still haven't gotten any possible explanation for why load times(loading saved games) are longer and loading lag still happens when using the RAM drive.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

1. any kind of "gamebooster" will do more harm than good. You can either run a game or not. And if you meet the requirements to run the game but need a "gamebooster" to be able to run the game, you possibly have a virus or three dozen unused processes running that YOU should clean out uninstall and delete.

2. That is the amount of free memory windows says can be used by programs. Kill the processes and you'll free up space

3. Stop using the ram disk. 

4. The amount a program will use is dependant on the total memory and FREE memory. If you start the game with only 1GB in free memory ,than the game is going to use less than 1GB of memory. I have 8GB of memory total. At any given time when I'm using windows, I'm NEVER using more than 3GB. When I run any modern game it uses around 2GB. Fallout 3 included. Something you are doing is forcing the game to use less than it should.


Do these
1.Uninstall and stop using the ramdisk
3. Preform a SMART test on your drive and give us the results.

I've helped you all I'm able to. Not taking any advice we give is your decision, so please don't whine and say that you don't want to take any of the steps we reccomend "because you believe you know better". If you knew better, you wouldn't be here in the first place, would you?


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

How many processes do you have running?

Your still gonna get loading lag because of what has been explained already.

You have 8GB ram there should be no way that you should require a RAM disk. You either have too much crap happening at the same time or there is something seriousely wrong i.e your hard disk is knackered.


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## Tyree (May 10, 2009)

greenbrucelee said:


> You have 8GB ram there should be no way that you should require a RAM disk. You either have too much crap happening at the same time or there is something seriousely wrong i.e your hard disk is knackered.


Ditto !


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## LMiller7 (Jun 21, 2010)

A 5.7 GB RAMdisk is much too large for an 8 GB system, no matter what you think Task Manager is telling you. This allows very fast access to the game files but you are paying a heavy price for this. A large amount of system memory is being tied up in storing files that are rarely used and in some cases not at all. At the same time the OS is starved of memory that is needed to run your game. The game files are read very quickly but there is no place to put the data that is being loaded. To make room the memory manager is forced to page out important system software and no doubt portions of the game itself. This is not a good thing but the memory manager has no choice. That is why performance is so poor.

For practical purposes you do not have an 8 GB RAM system but 2.3 GB. That is enough to run a 64 bit OS but not enough to run demanding games with reasonable performance.

Having zero or close to zero free memory is the normal state in modern versions of Windows, or any other modern OS for that matter. Having a large amount of free memory is the abnormality, but unfortunately unavoidable at times with the current state of computer design. The ideal would be zero free memory at all times. But we are not there yet.

Sorry, but can offer you no hope of obtaining good performance as long as you insist on having a large RAMdisk. Changes in system configuration are only likely to make things worse.

I am very skeptical of the advantages of using game booster or other programs of it's kind.

As I said before, I am a firm believer in letting the system manage it's resources, including RAM, as it wills. Manual changes are rarely beneficial and more often harmful.


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

Here's my post #24:


> 3- I always set the size of the RAM disk to the size of the game I'm putting in it.


Meaning I tried to set the RAM drive as low as 1.4 GB (in the case of the game portal 1), there was still longer loading times. I never insisted on having a large RAM drive, I tried with 5 games already, all below 2 GB, and all gave the same negative result.
And game booster is just a utility that closes all unnecessary processes before launching a game to free up memory, and reopens them after the game is closed, that's all.
And I can bring down windows processes to just 600 MB before launching a game.
So again, what could be causing the RAM drive to perform even slower than the HDD? Please just help me solve this problem, cause I already ordered 8 more GB yesterday when I thought that I was running out of RAM, but now even games as small as 1.4 GB perform the same.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

your had disk being knackered which has been said lots of times already.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

Let me try to put some things into prespective for you so you TOTALLY understand what you clearly do not


OBM-man said:


> Here's my post #24:
> 
> Meaning I tried to set the RAM drive as low as 1.4 GB (in the case of the game portal 1), there was still longer loading times. I never insisted on having a large RAM drive, I tried with 5 games already, all below 2 GB, and all gave the same negative result.


Think of being a chef.
Your counter space is your ram, things you are cooking are right there in front of you so you can access them easy.
Behind you is a drawer full of knives, forks, pots and pans.
When you make the ramdisk, you are dumping ALL of your knives, forks, pots, and pants right on your counter. You can access any utincel you need in zero time, but at the trade off of NOT being able to cook at all as you have no counter space.
That is what the ramdisk is donig. Giving priority to data you do not need to use, or seldom need to use. If you're making a cake, you are going to need a whisk once, and then not at all. You do not need to be holding the whisk in your hand while you are pre-heating the oven or when you are cracking the eggs.





> And game booster is just a utility that closes all unnecessary processes before launching a game to free up memory, and reopens them after the game is closed, that's all.


Basically it is a program that does things you shouldn't need to be doing. Why do you have two dozen processes running? If they aren't malicious, _CLOSE THE PROGRAM_. And if closing the program does not solve the problems, you have more to worry about. If you need to have vegas, photoshop, and anything else open ALL THE TIME and must close them when you play and open them when you are not.. Then sorry, you are beyond help. They do more harm than good. Always.



> And I can bring down windows processes to just 600 MB before launching a game.


no comment.




> So again, what could be causing the RAM drive to perform even slower than the HDD? Please just help me solve this problem, cause I already ordered 8 more GB yesterday when I thought that I was running out of RAM, but now even games as small as 1.4 GB perform the same.


*WHEN YOU USE THE RAM DRIVE
YOU HAVE LESS MEMORY TO USE
THE SYSTEM HAS TO USE THE PAGE FILE
MORE
WHICH IS ON THE HARD DRIVE
WHICH MEANS PART OF YOUR RAM IS NOW ON YOUR HARD DRIVE

RUN A SMART TEST. YOUR DRIVE SHOULDN'T BE THAT SLOW.
STOP USING THE RAMDRIVE. YOU ARE JUST COMPLICATING THINGS MORE THAN THEY NEED TO BE*


:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

wkw427 said:


> Let me try to put some things into prespective for you so you TOTALLY understand what you clearly do not
> 
> Think of being a chef.
> Your counter space is your ram, things you are cooking are right there in front of you so you can access them easy.
> ...


Please stop commenting. Your comments are unhelpful, or you're just trying to make me angry on purpose.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

You are not listening to our advice or providing the answers to our questions. For the last time, please do a SMART test so we can see if your drive is failing or not, because that is what it sounds like is happening.
Secondly, EVERYONE aside from you here reccomends against using the ramdisk.

Do you want me to answer your question?
You are lagging in the game because you are using a ramdisk.
If you stop using the ramdisk and you are still getting lag, your drive may be at fault.

Three options
1. Stop using ramdisk so we can troubleshoot like normal
2. Leave the thread, because you seem to be unwilling to help
3. Get 32gigglebites of the ram and a SSD faster hard drive so you can run your unoptimized tweaks the way you want to.

Seriously. We are trying to help you, you are unwilling to accept the help we are providing.


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## Tyree (May 10, 2009)

Simple try. Stop using RAM disc as well as game booster (well known for problems) and see how it goes.


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

I already know how it goes with the HDD, that's why I want to use the RAM drive(which I've only started using yesterday). I already ordered 8 more GB of RAM yesterday which I will get tomorrow in hopes of 16 GB being able to handle the 5.7 GB Fallout 3 file, but if 8 GB cannot handle a 1.4 GB RAM drive(as said above), then what difference is 16 GB of RAM going to make?
Everyone who has used RAM drives has said that it not only eliminates loading lag during a game, but also loading an actual game is almost instantaneous, as opposed to taking seconds or minutes with HDD's and SSD's. But I don't seem to be getting these upgrades even with a 1.4 GB RAM drives.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

I am going to unsubcribe from this thread as you are not understanding or listening to what we are saying about why you are getting loading lag.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

Ram drives don't "eliminate lag in a game". 

They eliminate _disk access_.
The make it so the hard drive does not have to read.

You have eliminated disk access to the game directory with the ram drive
You have increased disk access for the page file by lowering the amount of memory available to the system.


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## joeten (Dec 4, 2008)

I think you have had it explained to you quite clearly, so the fact is it is not working and is not going to, so stop using it and follow the advice given to check the drive,asking for advice and not taking it seems a waste of both your time and the good folks here who volunteer their time in order to help you,no one here is out to get you angry they are trying against all odds to help


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## OBM-man (Jun 8, 2009)

You people still don't get it, the Hard drive, i.e. the "page file" is only accessed if you run out of physical memory, which I didn't, as in there's 8-1.4 GB= 6.6 GB of available memory. The fact that I don't reply to your stupid comments doesn't mean I don't understand what you're trying to say. And just cause RAM drives aren't the coolest hippest thing you read about on the internet doesn't make them any less effective.


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## LMiller7 (Jun 21, 2010)

> the Hard drive, i.e. the "page file" is only accessed if you run out of physical memory


Wrong.

The pagefile in Windows is not some kind of overflow area used only when RAM is exhausted. That would be highly inefficient. It is used at all times as an area to store rarely used data. This is really very complex and I will not attempt to explain it further.

In any modern OS there is hardly ever room in RAM to store all of the code and data that is currently in use. With 2.3 GB RAM available to Windows you can change that to never. Nothing in Task Manager will tell you this. For this reason the memory manager must choose what is to be on disk and what will be in RAM. Since there is a great deal of data that is only rarely used this is not a problem. Frequently accessed data is kept in RAM while the remainder is left on disk. All desktop and server versions of Windows have been doing this since NT 3.1, released in 1993.

The more RAM you have, the larger the subset of code and data that can be kept in RAM. The memory manager always tries to use as much RAM as possible for this purpose. Free RAM is wasted RAM.

With only 2.3 GB RAM available to Windows the memory manager will be forced to make many changes in what is stored in RAM and that means disk access. That is causing your problem.

Windows has a highly efficient and very complex memory management system. Unfortunately most computer users have a hopelessly outdated concept of how this is done. This leads to many misconceptions and confusion about what is going on.


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## wkw427 (Nov 9, 2008)

You have, yet again, another user, this time with a big fancy red name tell you that you are wrong, and explain to you why you are wrong.

Consider marking this thread as solved, as we have given you an explanation as to why you have an issue, what you can do to rectify said issue, and that you will not be willing to accept our advice or try to understand our explainations
Thanks


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