# power supply mismatch?



## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

I just was given maybe 14 desktop computers older ones with daul core and p4 

My question is most of them are out of case and power supply too I heard that some power supplies are only meant for specific computers and will ruin other mother boards if they are plugged into them

Is this true and how do I know which power supply will work with which computer one I know is a emachine 

(2.) Also is there a way to test a power supply to see if its OK before I try it its the longer style mb plug in


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## DBCooper (Jun 11, 2010)

Hi zer0118,

First thing first, what is the brand/model of those 14-computers? Are they all different brand/model?


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> Is this true and how do I know which power supply will work with which computer one I know is a emachine


It WAS true many years ago that factory assembled computers from some of the big makers used proprietary PSUs and motherboards in their systems. They "claimed" it was to keep production costs down (and maybe it did save them a couple bucks) but the result was it FORCED consumers to buy replacement parts (at higher costs) from these makers - which defeated the whole point of having the ATX Form Factor standard in the first place. 

If anything, their use of proprietary parts to force users to buy replacement and upgrade parts from then is one of the main reasons the home-built computer became so popular and site like Newegg and Tiger Direct became so popular. 

So for you, depending on the specific model of motherboard and the PSU that came with it, there could be a proprietary issue that could result in damage to the motherboard if a proprietary (non-standard) PSU is connected to an ATX Form Factor standard compliant motherboard. 

As Dan noted, the specific brand and model numbers of each piece needs to be plugged into Bing Google to see if proprietary or ATX compliant. 



> (2.) Also is there a way to test a power supply to see if its OK before I try it its the longer style mb plug in


The easiest and more importantly, the safest way (remember, anything that plugs into the can kill!) for "normal" users to test a PSU is to use a *PSU Tester*. The advantage of this model is that it has an LCD readout of the voltage. With an actual voltage readout, you have a better chance of detecting a "failing" PSU, or one barely within the required tolerances as specified in the *ATX Form Factor PSU Design Guide* (see “Table 2. DC Output Voltage Regulation” below from Page 13). Lesser models use LEDs to indicate the voltage is just within some "range". These are less informative, considerably cheaper, but still useful for detecting PSUs that have already "failed". *Newegg* has several testers to choose from. However, none of these testers test for ripple and they only provide a little "dummy load", not a variety of "realistic" loads. So while not a certain test, these testers are better than nothing. They are also great when using a spare PSU for testing fans and drive motors as they signal the PSU to turn on when plugged in.

Note that Dell and the others got a lot of grief and not-too-kind complaints from MANY users for not complying with industry standards with their PSUs.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

They are a whole variety of models, so if I just Google the model # of the power supply it will say if its proprietary 

(2.) Is there a way of testing the power supply with out buying a tester like with a standard voltage tester like on the old power supplies you could put A paper clip in the green and black wires and it would run it connecting the two wires together


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## Jennifer Law (Oct 30, 2014)

It's 20 pin, 20+4 pin, 24 pin, and whether or not there is an extra 4 pin power connector. 20+4 and 24 pin are the same, I don't think a 20 pin PSU will run a 24 pin motherboard, and I don't think you can get a 24 pin to fit a 20 pin board. I also think you can convert IDE power to the extra CPU 4 pin connector.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

3) if I look up the motherboard does it tell me if its proprietary

4) are there certain brands that are always proprietary like say emachine are there other brands that are as well


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

zer0118 said:


> are there certain brands that are always proprietary like say emachine are there other brands that are as well


The old Gateway with the black and white cow is a good example.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> and I don't think you can get a 24 pin to fit a 20 pin board.


Most do. In fact, with many PSUs, the last 4 are designed to be broken off into a separate 4-pin. 



> Is there a way of testing the power supply with out buying a tester like with a standard voltage tester like on the old power supplies you could put A paper clip in the green and black wires and it would run it connecting the two wires together


First, note that color coding is not mandatory. So you should not go by colors. You need to go by pin number. But still, the paper clip method only fools the PSU to turn on. It does NOT put any load on the PSU and power supplies need a load for proper testing. And just because a PSU powers on, that does not mean it is outputting all the necessary voltages. 



> are there certain brands that are always proprietary


Not anymore. But years ago, must of the big factory makers used proprietary parts. 


> They are a whole variety of models, so if I just Google the model # of the power supply it will say if its proprietary


 Is that a question or a statement? There's a reason punctuation is important.

If a question, then the answer is maybe. 
If a statement, then not sure I agree. What are those model numbers?


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

Was a question

Computer Parts, Laptops, Electronics, and More - Newegg.com

Here's one motherboard does this take any power supply

Its a Asus m2a VM or a mza VM

I can't find any reference to that

2) Can it take a quad core if it fits in there

This is the better of the mother boards is this a time when things were proprietary


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Then the answer is probably no. But if the Bing Google hit says ATX, it should be a standard supply. 

The specs for that ASUS m2a VM motherboard say µATX so it should be ATX compliant. 

I don't see the point of your Newegg link. 

As for quad core - that's a totally different topic. 



> I can't find any reference to that


Why not? Let me bing that for you


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

I didn't know what to look for

1) Next question is can proprietary motherboard ruin a non proprietary power supply

And vise versa

2) Can a proprietary power supply ruin a nonproprietary motherbard

3) what do I look for on motherboard specs that say its a proprietary motherboard


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## Jennifer Law (Oct 30, 2014)

I'd suggest you rethink your overall plan.

1) Divide all the computers into standard vs. proprietary.
2) Identify which standard machines are worth fixing, and work on those.
3) Consider scrapping those that aren't worth fixing.

Dual core and P4's are not that old, and I have never seen non-standard PSU in either of those. They might have a resale value of $75 to $125, maybe. Maybe less. Some people only want to browse the internet and check their email.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

zer0118 said:


> I didn't know what to look for
> 
> 1) Next question is can proprietary motherboard ruin a non proprietary power supply
> 
> ...


 These have already been answered above. But think about this for a second and the answers should be obvious. 

The very purpose of the ATX Form Factor Standard is to ensure any ATX PSU from any maker will apply standard voltages on standard pin configurations to support any ATX motherboard from any maker in any ATX case from any maker. 

Isn't it common sense that applying the wrong voltage to the wrong pin may cause damage?

You seem to be in denial here, refusing to accept or heed the advice and suggestions of what anyone is telling you.  So I am going to assume you are just going to do it anyway. Do make sure you have a plan to kill power at the wall upon sight or smell of smoke, or sounds of arcing, and keep a fire extinguisher at hand to douse any fires that may erupt should a potentially faulty PSU fail to shutdown immediately upon detection of non-compatible voltages on the wrong pins.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

It wasn't my intention to take shortcuts I was going to research first then try it hoping to avoid any damageing of anything 

One computer had all parts still together so I know they were meant to go together the light would show on the motherboard but when I pressed the power button it kicked the circuit breaker two times I then tried just the power supply by it self it worked when I already had the green and black wire connected but when i had the paper clip out and then quickly connected it, it then kicked the circuit breaker so I'm assuming the power supply is at fault.

Just giveing you an update not really asking a question

Sorry if I asked a question twice I was in a hurry at the time i asked it


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> the light would show on the motherboard


There is no standard for those lights either. So it means different things on different motherboards. But most commonly, it simply means the power supply is providing its required +5Vsb standby voltage to several points on the board when the computer is turned off, but still plugged into the wall (and, if the PSU has a master power switch on back, it is set to on ("1").

It does NOT indicate if the PSU is capable of delivering its required other voltages. 



> Just giveing you an update not really asking a question


Updates are good! :thumb: Keep them coming.


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## Jennifer Law (Oct 30, 2014)

zer0118 said:


> Sorry if I asked a question twice I was in a hurry at the time i asked it


This could be a very slow and tedious process. More of a "every single tree" type of project, vs. trying to deal with an entire forest all at once. This is why I recommend doing a survey of all the computers, and pick only those, particularly the 1st one, that is worth doing. You might discover that it is way more trouble than it is worth.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

UPDATE
ok I took the computer mentioned before about the power supply issue looked up another power supply and it seemed to be ok and I had it in another computer that did work but only has 2 ram slots I want 4 so I took it out of there and tried it in that one and it turned on but no video but it stays on and to turn it off I have to press and hold the power button for 7-10 seconds or so I am still going to try other things like maybe the cpu is bad or ram maybe or take the mb card off there (wire connected to mb to a card )

I might also try that other asus motherboard that was mentioned earlier maybe that will work to

also half of these motherboards are ddr1 and other half is maybe ddr2 so that helps in the decision process maybe

QUESTION
I looked up another power supply it right on the top of the list said proprietary heres the model allied sl-8320btx what does this mean then if its proprietary and how do I know what it will work with 

Im working on this a little by little


STATMENT
being I can make statements about things I would like to mention a laserjet 4050 that I worked on some years back it had smoke damage ( in a fire ) and to fix it part of the problem was the ink cartrage had some marring on it so I took toilet paper and rubbed on it to get it off and also I had to take the printer apart and take apart the laser assembly and clean off a mirror inside of there then the printer works to this date as far as the plasitic I scrubbed it but it still has a hint of grey

MORE STATEMENT
I also got a laserjet 4000 this time and some monitiors 

the laser jet prints it self diagnostic page but after it warms up its lower drawer has problems feeding the paper its sometimes does and sometimes doesnt 50 50 but the manual feeder works just fine (I just set this asside for now work on later

the two monitors one has a bunch of colered lines accross the screen 
and the other will turn on for a second and then turn off the screen while it is still on of course i press the source button(it has two types of plugs) and it will repeat that turn on then turn off, also I press the power button and then turn it back on it will do the same (I set these asside for now for when I feel up to disassembly I may end up saveing these for parts if nothing is obvious.

I am includeing this as you said you wanted a update no response is required except for the one question


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## Jennifer Law (Oct 30, 2014)

zer0118 said:


> QUESTION
> I looked up another power supply it right on the top of the list said proprietary heres the model allied sl-8320btx what does this mean then if its proprietary and how do I know what it will work with


Not sure where you are getting the idea that this (and maybe the other) power supplies are "proprietary". Doing a Google search of the model number "sl8320btx" shows it looks just like any other desktop power supply. The "BTX" throws me a bit, but it cross references as being the same as an "ATX" so IDK if that means anything.

http://www.usereasy.com/product_10072.html

APEX COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY

It looks like it's being sold/distributed by multiple manufacturers, so the "Allied" part of the specs may not mean much.

This looks like a standard, generic, low-end power supply that can be put into just about any computer. 20+4 pin connector, a CPU connector, some peripheral connectors, very generic.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

APEX COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY

This is were I saw it says proprietary it says AL-A300ATX/SL-8320BTX

It says proprietary ic, your link says that too


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## Jennifer Law (Oct 30, 2014)

zer0118 said:


> APEX COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY
> 
> This is were I saw it says proprietary it says AL-A300ATX/SL-8320BTX
> 
> It says proprietary ic, your link says that too


It appears to me that the word "proprietary" applies to the "IC" that's part of the circuitry, and not necessarily to what power is outputted. It may also be that the word "proprietary" means something specific to power supplies in general, perhaps the design/architecture of the electronics, the method used to generate power, etc...

Almost certainly it does NOT mean that the whole power supply is somehow special, different and unique and that it cannot be used with any other computer. That PSU looks highly generic and is in all respects exactly the same as any other PSU.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

then what will it look like under the specs when its proprietary

the way i understand it is propriitary power supplys can fit into non propritary motherboards and end up ruining them because its not ment for it and that they can look the same

also why would they even mention the word propritary if its only internal

your not guessing are you I need to know this, please don't be offended :angry:

QUESTION
also I have some dell motherboards and several dell power supplies im assuming they are compatable right


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

Another thing that was odd to me is I have this emachine (complete) and it has the 20 pin power connector connected to the 24 pin connector but yet it works (boots to bios) why is this what would happen if one were to put a 24 pin power on that is this some sort of emachine trick the manufacturer put in place as a booby trap if you say put the wrong power supply in they get to get big money by you paying them for a new motherboard chaching !


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> then what will it look like under the specs when its proprietary


Probably nothing! There is no industry standard or government regulation that requires manufacturers to post that information. 

Not only we talking about potential proprietary designs, this is "proprietary information" too. They don't have to tell us consumers anything. 

I repeat my earlier recommendation. Get a PSU tester. 



> Another thing that was odd to me is I have this emachine (complete) and it has the 20 pin power connector connected to the 24 pin connector but yet it works (boots to bios) why is this what would happen if one were to put a 24 pin power on that is this some sort of emachine trick the manufacturer put in place as a booby trap if you say put the wrong power supply in they get to get big money by you paying them for a new motherboard chaching !


 Did you read what was posted earlier? Most 24-pin PSU connectors are designed to break off the last 4-pin portion to make a 20-pin connector. This should tell you the first 20 pins are the same - at least on ATX compliant PSUs. The extra 4-pins are for extra power to the CPU. Some older motherboards have a separate 4-pin connector for that - which is why PSU makers make the connector so the 4-pin extras can be broken off.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

They are called 20+4 pin connectors this means when you look at the power cable it will be 24 pins 4 of those pins are designed to snap off to be used to provide the cpu with power.

As for your question about the dell power supplies you have, they all should be but I wouldn't use a dell power supply as a book end I couldn't trust it to keep the books on the shelve if you get my meaning.


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## Jennifer Law (Oct 30, 2014)

zer0118 said:


> the way i understand it is propriitary power supplys can fit into non propritary motherboards and end up ruining them because its not ment for it and that they can look the same
> 
> also why would they even mention the word propritary if its only internal
> 
> your not guessing are you I need to know this, please don't be offended


As a general rule, they aren't going to manufacturer a plug that looks the same, fits the same but delivers bad/destructive voltage. If it's "proprietary", it's going to be different in all aspects. And yes, I'm "guessing" and not offended. It's a good idea to wonder who is giving you advice and not blindly obey what people say online, because there are a lot of dummies that tell people to do a lot of stupid things. However, the fact that no one in the thread has disagreed with me should indicate it's safe to plug your so-called "proprietary" power supplies into whatever motherboard will allow the plug to fit.

I've been doing computer repair for about 10 years and have never once seen a non-standard power supply. They change in size, shape, etc... but the 20/24 pin power connector is always the same. I think you've read the word "proprietary" and interpreted the word very literally. Suspect that for the most part it's a marketing gimmick, to create the illusion that a cheap, low-end power supply is something special. Also, I'm not offended. It's a good idea to do this kind of thing with eyes wide open.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Jennifer Law said:


> If it's "proprietary", it's going to be different in all aspects.


NO!!!! That is wrong, Jennifer. Sorry, but that is the problem!!!!! They weren't different!! 



> And yes, I'm "guessing" and not offended. It's a good idea to wonder who is giving you advice and not blindly obey what people say online, because there are a lot of dummies that tell people to do a lot of stupid things. However, the fact that no one in the thread has disagreed with me should indicate it's safe to plug your so-called "proprietary" power supplies into whatever motherboard will allow the plug to fit.
> 
> I've been doing computer repair for about 10 years and have never once seen a non-standard power supply.


Only 10 years? Then I won't hold your youthful lack of experience against you! :grin: 

I've been disagreeing with your claim since my first post in this thread 6 days ago. And I'm no dummy here. You can follow the link in my sig to see how far back I go and whether I might be qualified to discuss electronics. 

In the "somewhat distant" past, with these "proprietary" PSUs and motherboards, they "looked" 100% identical to ATX compliant PSUs and motherboards. The power connectors on these non-compliant PSU cables and motherboards were identical (same part numbers too!). The ONLY difference was some of the wires and motherboard traces where connected to different pins in these identical connectors than the ATX Form Factor compliant PSUs and motherboards. 

Visually looking, even formally trained electronics technicians could not tell the difference. We had to actually map out the pin layouts using a multimeter. 

And the problem was, because they looked exactly the same, many users with failed proprietary PSUs were attempting to replace them with ATX standard PSUs. But as soon as they applied power, because the main 20-pin power connector was wired differently, it would short out, and often damaged the motherboard and the new PSU too. Better PSUs would just shutdown via their self protection circuits, but sadly, not everyone buys better PSUs.



> Suspect that for the most part it's a marketing gimmick, to create the illusion that a cheap, low-end power supply is something special.


 It was not a "marketing gimmick". It was done to cut costs and increase profits. 

Remember, these offenders (Dell, HP/Compaq, and Gateway) deal in massive volumes. So they could go to ASUS, ChainTech, Deer, and other big OEM suppliers and promise to buy 1,000,000 motherboards and PSUs over the next whatever period of time. With that purchasing power, they could, and did dictate proprietary changes. 

What that did was force us users to buy replacement parts from the "dealer". And parts always cost more from the dealer. 

But what happened is Newegg, TigerDirect and other sites started promoting parts for self-builders and self repairers and it was because of USER DEMAND that Dell and the others had to change their tune. 

Note because there is no ATX Form Factor standard for notebooks, nor is there a user demand for self-building notebooks, we are stuck with replacement proprietary parts. 

So let me be clear - *DO NOT PLUG A PRIPRIETARY PSU INTO AN ATX COMPLIANT MOTHERBOARD. PERIOD! *


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

I have to say for once I agree with Bill. Back when I first started building computers in 1993 you couldn't tell the difference and back then you ended up with people who had a lot of spare power supplies because most places wouldn't let you return then because they were fully functional.

As for motherboards a dell so called ATX motherboard looks very similar to a non oem manufactured board until you get close to it and use a magnifying glass and a torche and there will be the odd lane missing and such.

Think of it like this a v8 engine in a lambo will be fully supported and all fully working, put a v8 in a nissan note and your gonna have to cut a few cylinders and make it a v5 but it will look the same when you open the trunk.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

and I forgot to add please don't plug a proprietary psu into a normal ATX board as you may well need a fire extinguisher and some spare cash when your electricity supplier bills you for fixing your houses supply.


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

This thread reminds me that when we needed parts for our Gestetner machine, which looked exactly like the Ricoh who made it, the parts weren't interchangeable. Could only be bought from Gestetner.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Absolutely. This certainly is not limited to PSUs and motherboards. It happens with many OEM/rebranded consumer electronics.



> and I forgot to add please don't plug a proprietary psu into a normal ATX board


As noted in *BIG BOLD LETTERS* in my last post. The other way around applies too. Don't plug an ATX standard PSU into a proprietary motherboard.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

1) this power supply sl-8320btx says the word proprietary ic, I think it was, im assuming that means its proprietary 

your saying often it wont tell you its proprietary in the spec huh

2) I did read your comment earilier about the 4 breaking off I just didnt understand why, I still dont perfectly understand. how do I know when its needed or not?? theres a 24 slot its just not all used?? I dont understand yet and when to know its needed or not needed, I would just assume fill all the plug and the 4 as well

infact most the motherboards I have, have 24 pin connectors plus an additional 4 plug so does the power supply as well have 24pin connector and a 4 pin so I plug them all in

3) ok then dell power supplys are all compatable with the dell motherboards your saying then ok got it, if this is not true someone say so

I know when someone on the Internet sounds like they know what there talking about you just have to feel it out it, like when your talking to a customer service agent they utterly insist they are right about something but you talk to the manager or call back and find out its not true, this happens allot let me tell you, frustrating, they will absolutely not back down even when I know there wrong. I just call back or go to a manager

still havent done more just yet on the project, just about thou


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> how do I know when its needed or not??


If the motherboard has a 20-pin connector, you use a 20-pin PSU connector. If the motherboard has a 24-pin connector you use the 24-pin PSU connector. Common sense. 

If the motherboard needs the additional 4-pin, it will have a socket for it - which should be, hopefully is labeled. 



> 3) ok then dell power supplys are all compatable with the dell motherboards your saying then ok got it, if this is not true someone say so


I don't think anybody said they are "ALL" compatible. That's part of the problem, Dell (and the others) stopped using proprietary supplies and boards in their computers. You need to sort them all (PSUs and motherboards) out by model numbers, and research each model number to see if standard, or non-standard. 

Frankly, if me, it sounds like these are all old systems that may not even work any more. And if they do work, they most likely will not support a modern (and secure) operating system - that is, there may not even be current drivers for these boards. 

There is probably a good reason why the previous owner got rid of them. Maybe you should just consider selling them for scrap. If you have an electronics recycling center in your area, they may pay you, typically by the pound, for the RAM and CPUs, and for the PSUs and motherboards and cases. CRT monitors are often not accepted because the lead and potential mercury content is too hard to recycle safely.

If you are intent in trying to get some of them running, then you really should "invest" in a PSU tester.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

unless your boards are very very old they will be 20pin with a 4 pin cpu connector but then again as I said in my post earlier a dell atx motherboard can be very different from an asus motherboard. There could be bits one has and the other one doesn't.

these days motherboards have a 20 pin and the cpus need extra power so that is what the 4 pin is for.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> these days motherboards have a 20 pin and the cpus need extra power so that is what the 4 pin is for.


Ummm, no. These days, most motherboards have 24-pin connectors and typically a separate 4-pin or 8-pin (2 x 4) ATX 12V connector. 

ASUS Example
Gigabyte Example
ECS Example


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

yes sorry I was getting mixed the last 3 boards I bought were indeed 24pin with the seperate 4 pin. All asus boards.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

you misunderstood the emachine I have has a 24 connector on the motherboard and yet they only have a 20 pin connected to it 4 vacant slots on the main power connector and it boots to bios with only a 20 pin connected to its 24 pin but it also has the extra 4 pin on another portion of the motherboard that is connected as well

I am not planning on installing the most recent operating system maybe vista or windows 7

the previous owner didnt have time to putz around with them like I do they consider time important so they dropped it, im also very good at working around problems I as well have been working with computers off and on for 10 years (I know its not very much time, but ive worked with junk computers before and figured them out, and also a small amount of microsoft training, mcse)

I work on these little by little so im not concerned with how much time it will take but I dont think it will take to long


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## Wizmo (Apr 3, 2011)

zer0118 said:


> you misunderstood the emachine I have has a 24 connector on the motherboard and yet they only have a 20 pin connected to it 4 vacant slots on the main power connector and it boots to bios with only a 20 pin connected to its 24 pin but it also has the extra 4 pin on another portion of the motherboard that is connected as well
> 
> I am not planning on installing the most recent operating system maybe vista or windows 7
> 
> ...


Before you go too far with these systems you should see (by checking the manufacturer websites) if there are Vista (YUCK!) or *Win7 DRIVERS* for them. If not, then you are basically wasting your time with them. XP is no longer supported by MS, and there are many malware hobbyists developing exploits now for those still running it. I have already run into these 'in the wild' with stubborn (or poor) people still clinging to XP.

If these systems are indeed old enough to have the proprietary PSU's and motherboards, they likely will not be able to support Vista or Win7. Most of these were designed for Win98 or 2000 at best. *Many may have been set up with XP, but often they performed poorly with the limited RAM (DDR1) or early DDR2 with only 2 DIMM sockets.*

As to your printers with paper feed issues, the pickup rollers on those models are notorious for getting dirty or hardened and failing to feed from trays. It took me over a year to get my employer to get rid of the ones we had that needed rollers cleaned or replaced monthly at times of heavy usage. Our offices went through 2-3 toners a month sometimes, leading to the rollers getting fouled VERY often. For the 4 0f the LJ-4050's it was feed rollers & drums every two months with the volume of use they saw. Even if they are NOT used that heavily, the rollers in those models still get dirty or _DRY OUT_ and need replacing quite frequently regardless. *YMMV*


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

I've had total success cleaning and restoring printer rollers with a product called Rubber Renue. It's a bit dangerous to use so follow the directions. I first discovered it when working on a reel to reel tape recorder and restoring the belts and rollers.


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## Wizmo (Apr 3, 2011)

Corday said:


> I've had total success cleaning and restoring printer rollers with a product called Rubber Renue. It's a bit dangerous to use so follow the directions. I first discovered it when working on a reel to reel tape recorder and restoring the belts and rollers.


I worked on R/R recorders and other consumer electronics for over 20 years. Primary ingredient in that solution is ACETONE, same as in nail polish remover, but without the oils in that to soothe the skin after use. 

As stated, be careful with that! Acetone is used as it evaporates quickly, but is actually destructive to rubber if applied long-term. I tried soaking a severely hardened AKAI pinch roller in it and it actually melted it in about 45 minutes! I should have paid more attention to the soaking process :-(

That may work for the pickup rollers, but they tend to be a bit 'sticky' after such a treatment for a few days or so.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> but is actually destructive to rubber if applied long-term.


Not to mention your lungs and sinus cavities!


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## Wizmo (Apr 3, 2011)

Bill_Bright said:


> Not to mention your lungs and sinus cavities!


Acetone is also most dangerous because it is a solvent, and as such it easily crosses through your skin into the bloodstream. This can be quite toxic.

As advised, use with extreme caution, and then only sparingly.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> As advised, use with extreme caution, and then only sparingly.


...and in a well-ventilated room, or outdoors. Note it will suck the moisture out of your flesh too.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

sorry for not updateing but I got one computer working great then after a while I took a cd rom out of it to do something with it then the computer decided to stop working after that. I suspect the power supply is acting up because I took that same power supply and tried it in 2 other computers and still same thing. and one of those computer I had working before but it was a lower spec computer. 

is there a way to just use a multi tester to just manually test every plug on the power supply and just confirm that every power voltage is where it supose to be rather than researching them

for example the 12 is the same spot on both the 5, the 3.3 whatever all in the exact same possition (by crossing the green and the black wires(that are generly in the same spot (i know you said those are not standardized but they are always in the same spot so if there not then ok I will question it)

so if every voltage is in the exact same spot as a normal one then can I just try it without internet research


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> is there a way to just use a multi tester to just manually test every plug on the power supply and just confirm that every power voltage is where it supose to be rather than researching them


You cannot properly test the main 20/24 pin power connector without a properly load on it. That means it has to be connected to the motherboard and powered up while you jam highly conductive meter probes deep into the heart of live electronics. 

But you can connect that main power connector to the motherboard and power up the computer, then you your meter to measure the voltages on the other power connectors - the ones for the drive and fans. Or again, one of those connectors will test them too, and safely. 



> for example the 12 is the same spot on both the 5, the 3.3


I don't know what that means. 12V should NEVER be seen where 5 or 3.3 volts should be. 



> I suspect the power supply is acting up because I took that same power supply and tried it in 2 other computers and still same thing.


I would call that conclusive, not suspect.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

if a power supply has issues on more than one computer then its a conclusive result that its faulty.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

Bill_Bright said:


> I don't know what that means. 12V should NEVER be seen where 5 or 3.3 volts should be.


I thought you were implying that proprietary power supplys mis and match the places where all the voltages are so the 12 is not in the same spot the 5 and 3.3 are also in different possitions than a normal power supply

i dont know where they all are but heres an example the 12 volt is in pin1 on normal power supply, but on a proprietary supply pin1 is 5 volt ( this is just an example to clear my question up, im not saying this is accurate) so if that being the case I could easily see that its not right if the voltages are out of placeses between the two, is this right or am I mis thinking it

thanks


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> I thought you were implying that proprietary power supplys mis and match the places where all the voltages are so the 12 is not in the same spot the 5 and 3.3 are also in different possitions than a normal power supply


Oh, yes. That's true. But note those supplies are for similarly proprietary motherboards. For example, older Dell proprietary power supplies were used on Dell proprietary motherboards. And if you connected an ATX compliant PSU to those boards, you could destroy the board. Fortunately, Dell no longer does that.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

we still have that crap at my work, those power supplies suck apart from they just slide in and out which makes things easy when you need to replace it.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> we still have that crap at my work


There are still many around after all those years - which, ironically, suggests a pretty reliable product.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

Bill_Bright said:


> There are still many around after all those years - which, ironically, suggests a pretty reliable product.


the same cant be said for their motherboards.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Well, not sure about that since they come out of the same time period. So if the proprietary boards are still running, they can't be all bad - at least in terms of reliability as electronics.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

in my experience they have a higher failure rate than HP which we mainly use now at my work.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

ok so were on the same page now, so can I just use a multi tester and just make sure the voltages are in the right possistions and if they are its ok to try it on that motherboard(I know its a normal standard motherboard already)

i would start the power supply by jumping the green and black wire(or at least where it supose to be, you said before thats not standard I know but its typically in the same spot)


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

in order to test a psu properly it has to be under load when using a multi meter. A multi meter testing it without load will only give an indication of voltages but not a 100% accurate result.

You can buy load machines but these are very expensive.

The BIOS is always a good place to get voltages from as the BIOS is more accurate than software.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> so can I just use a multi tester and just make sure the voltages are in the right possistions


As noted above, you cannot use a multimeter to test if a PSU is good without putting the PSU under a proper load. But if you just want to verify it is wired to ATX standards, you can do that. 

See the *ATX Form Factor Power Supply Design Guide, for Desktop Form Factors, Revision 1.2, February 2008* and note Figure 7 on page 34 the main power connector pin-out. 

Or, you could get a *PSU Tester*. Now these testers are not totally conclusive either because they don't test for ripple and only put a small 10Ω load on the supply. But they are safe and convenient and I keep one tool bag in my truck for house calls.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

yes just to test that its a atx form and not a proprietary form as far as it working properly these are junk parts I will just take a chance. 

but my test which you may not think highly of is to take a cd rom or a hard drive that I dont care about and plug it into the power supply and test the hard drive with a usb to ide cable that will be my generic test if it passes that then I would go ahead and put it on the motherboard

I dont want to buy a tester for this, this isnt a big deal if it ruins it, but more than likely it wont

maybe I could test the power supply on a motherboard that I dont care about as much thats a normal atx factor

I have some questions about the picture of power pin locations

where to I ground to to test the pins, com?

also
what are these
com 
plus 12
minus 12

plus 12v1
nc


and what will happen when I test these

pwr ok
ps on# (power on)


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> but my test which you may not think highly of is to take a cd rom or a hard drive that I dont care about and plug it into the power supply and test the hard drive with a usb to ide cable that will be my generic test if it passes that then I would go ahead and put it on the motherboard


It is hardly a conclusive test. 

Please note the Design Guide link I provide above. It will answer all your questions but note Table 15 on page 20. Your CD test will not show if a PSU is outputting power within proper tolerances. A motor may spin if the +12V is coming in at 11.35V, but that does not mean other devices on the motherboard will work. 

Com = common, typically (but not always) the same as ground. 
Testing a questionable PSU on a motherboard risks damaging the motherboard and still not tell you anything about PSU compatibility. 

If you don't know what plus 12 and minus 12 is, then I really don't think you should be doing this. 

Many PSUs have more than one 12V rail. 12V1 indicates rail 1.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

I have to agree with Bill if you dont know what -12v and +12v is then it might not be wise to be messing with an electronic device which could potentially cause you serious harm or damage the equipment you have it connected to, the + 12v and -12v are loads the psu uses.

The +12 is usually these days is the rail so depending on the rectifiers etc it determines how many amps each rail can output for example I have had a psu which had 4 12v rails which could output allegedlt 24amps per rail. I prefer single rail units such as my current seasonic unit which has 68 amps on the 12v rail.

I prefer single rail untis because the OCP only has to monitor one rail with all the 12v outputs on it where as in a multi rail system the OCP has to monitor all the wires at the same time which has more room for error.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> I prefer single rail untis


I prefer single rail units because with multi-rail, some reserve power is left on each rail which, in effect means the full capability of the PSU may not be available. 

Multi-rail PSUs have their place in rack mount systems where one PSU supplies power to more than one system and they need isolation from each other. That is not needed in a PC. Multi-rail PSUs for PCs were really a marketing gimmick, IMO, not a technical advantage.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

im very good at electronics so, no need to be concerned. im not planing on takeing it apart or anything it either works or it doesnt. im also good at intricate work like fixing laptops, takeing them apart and fixing it, im also good at soldering, but this is beside the point

what will positive and negative look like on a multi meter will it say negitive and positive on its read out, I will put my negitve on one of the coms and then test with the red side all the other pins one at a time testing it.(all I want to do is just confirm there all in the right possitions nothinng else not even load)

also like I said before, maybe ill take a junk motherboard plug it into that first to make sure it starts then go ahead and try it, also the final motherboard Im going to use its also not a big deal if it ruins it for any reason. ill just take a chance if its an issue then Ill go with another motherboard and power supply no big deal.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> im very good at electronics so, no need to be concerned
> 
> where to I ground to to test the pins, com?
> 
> ...


I am sorry but if you were very good at electronics, you would not be asking these questions. It took me nearly 2 years of formal classroom and on-the-job technical training before I could even think of myself as being "very good" at electronics. 

Anything that plugs into the wall can KILL! With that in mind, along with your questions, I don't feel comfortable offering further advice in this area. 

I mean no disrespect! I just think you should get a tester or take this system to a reputable shop.


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

well I thank you for all your advise so far its been very helpful thank you

I am a do it your self person, im just going to fumble around till I figure it out then :frown:

:flowers:


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

an update, didnt do the power supply change for a long time because of all the red tape involved,

but i went ahead and did the multi tester test and works just fine for my purposes

I just maped what the orginal power supply power pins were on paper (use ing the cross the green and black wire trick)

and then repeated this with all my other power supplies most of them were the same

except a couple only one pin would show a 5 volt

even all the dell power supplies were the right voltages but the cable was too short to wire in there properly but i happeded to have a power supply that did have a long enouth cable and i was able to get that one computer working again at least to the bois I put the hard drive in but windows need to be reinstalled it acts funny(sitting to long) but i will prbably just reinstall windows and be good

multi tester works great for this purposes no problem at all


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

I am glad things are getting sorted out. When you say "multi-tester", what do you mean? A multi-meter or a PSU plug in tester?


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## zer0118 (Dec 7, 2011)

just a simple black and red prong tester, nothing fancy, tells me the voltage, or continuity


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