# Help, power supply ticking



## bearsus (Sep 16, 2014)

Hello TechSupport!  

About a month ago I built my first PC, and originally I was using an AMD CPU and GPU (FX-8350 4,0Ghz and Radeon R9 290). but then I got a very nice deal for a GeForce GTX 780, grabbed it and sold the R9 290. A little bit later I also decided to go with Intel's i5 4670k as it suited my needs more, and with it I got the Asus Z87-A motherboard.

Somewhere along the road my PSU has started to make a ticking sound. Chances also are that it's always been there but I hadn't noticed it because I had a really loud chassis fan which I have now removed. I took a sample of the suond and put it on YouTube:

Power supply ticking - YouTube

Everything works 100% fine, I haven't had any random crashes and generally the computer has been performing like a dream. That sound just not only worries me, but also annoys me.









I first had a Corsair VS650w but when I first noticed that sound, I instantly switched the PSU to a ThermalTake 630w Smart SE. Both produce that same sound, yet I'm 100% sure it's coming from the PSU. So to me this is all very weird.








Has anyone ever had a similar issue?


----------



## Masterchiefxx17 (Feb 27, 2010)

Hi and Welcome to TSF!

First off, a very low quality Thermaltake 630W PSU is not powerful enough for that system. You should be running with a XFX or Seasonic branded PSU rated at 650W.

I would recommend replacing it.


----------



## jimscreechy (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't hear any ticking.


----------



## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

The odds of two PSUs both "ticking" are slim. I'd look to see if you have something that is hitting a fan. However, as stated above, I can't hear anything but normal fan noise in the video you posted.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

I find it hard to believe two different PSUs from different makers would be ticking then same way so I agree with MPR and think you need to look at other potential sources - like a cable too close to a fan blade (be sure to check the CPU fan wires too), or a noisy HD. 

If you REALLY want to prove to yourself it is (or is not) the PSU clicking, pull the PSU out of the case then connect it to a *PSU Tester*. These testers will allow the PSU to start and from there, you will (or will not) hear the sound. 

I do not agree with the comment the TT 630 PSU is not "powerful" enough. If you use the *eXtreme PSU Calculator Lite* to determine the minimum and recommended power supply unit (PSU) requirements, even when padding the results by setting Capacitor Aging to 10% and both TDP and system load to 100%, (and using 3 120mm fans, 1 SSD, 2 HDs, and 1 BR player), you get a minimum 490W and recommended of 540W. So 630W is plenty... ...but...

I agree 100% with the "low quality" comment. And that TT is not one of their better supplies - by a long shot! 

If you look *here*, you can see the supply boasts about an 87% efficiency. And that is outstanding!!! BUT if you look at the "efficiency curve", you can see that great rating is only at one point on the curve. A "bell curve" (not "flat") efficiency rating for a computer power supply is lousy!!! :nonono:

You want a "flat" efficiency rating with a computer PSU because computers present a "variety" of loads on a power supply, from a few watts when idle, to maximum loads when pushed, and everything in between. So to address that, you want a *80 PLUS* certified power supply. 80 PLUS certified PSUs are required to have fairly "linear" (flat) efficiencies. This is important to ensure the PSU is running at or near peak efficiency regardless the load or power demands. 

Understand, power supplies inherently have efficiency ratings similar to that 1-point bell curve. For ANY power supply to achieve a linear efficiency rating across the full spectrum of "expected" loads, it MUST be of a quality design and use quality parts. This is why even once shunned Rosewill are earning top reviews with their 80 PLUS certified PSUs, as seen at *Tweaktown*, *Overclockers*, and *Anandtech*.

That Corsair you had originally is 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified - certified to be at least 80% efficient across the full range of expected loads. 

That TT is junk, IMO. 

I agree with the Master Chief and recommend you at least go back to the Corsair. 

BTW, I am disappointed with TT and that PSU! Note the 87% Efficiency "logo" they use on the supply and the webpage. Then note the 80 PLUS logos in the link above and note how similar they are. I feel TT is engaging in misleading (if not illegal) marketing tactics by trying to deceive users into thinking this supply is a "quality" and "80 PLUS Certified" supply - when it clearly is not. :angry: I am reporting TT as soon as I figure out who I should report them too.


----------



## bearsus (Sep 16, 2014)

Hello and sorry for the slow response, i've been at school and work most of the day and then fiddling with the PSU.

frankly I feel a bit like an idiot at this point hehe  I took a piece of plastic and stopped the PSU's fan while it was running - and guess what - the sound stopped. It continued as soon as I let the fan start spinning again. so the culprit is in the fan. I took a flashlight and took a look at the fan. I couldnt see anything hitting the fan's blades though. Maybe its the bearings?

Thank you for your in depth answer Bill  And everyone else, as well!

I must agree this TT PSU is a bit dodgy, with the 87% efficiency logo. I noticed it right away myself too. And I must say my initial thought was, when I looked at it, "hey this must be a good PSU then". 

However the VS650w as far as I know isn't 80+ certified either (the legit way lol). I dont plan to overclock any time soon so I will be keeping this TT PSU in the rig until I get my next paycheck, will look into one with a proper certification, and one that has a proper fan too.

thank you everybody!

P.S: Taking recommendations for a good, solid PSU! I work in a garden shop but sadly my money tree hasn't bloomed yet. So a reasonable price would be nice.


----------



## Masterchiefxx17 (Feb 27, 2010)

> I do not agree with the comment the TT 630 PSU is not "powerful" enough. If you use the *eXtreme PSU Calculator Lite* to determine the minimum and recommended power supply unit (PSU) requirements, even when padding the results by setting Capacitor Aging to 10% and both TDP and system load to 100%, (and using 3 120mm fans, 1 SSD, 2 HDs, and 1 BR player), you get a minimum 490W and recommended of 540W. So 630W is plenty... ...but...


Nvidia recommend a minimum of 600Ws for a GTX 780. We do not want to recommend minimum and add 15%. You would want a 650W PSU for a system running a GTX 780 unless you want to have a low power ratio to the system. 630Ws is not plenty...


----------



## bearsus (Sep 16, 2014)

Masterchiefxx17 said:


> You would want a 650W PSU for a system running a GTX 780


Which PSU would you recommend?: )


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> We do not want to recommend minimum and add 15%.


Nobody's doing that!



> 630Ws is not plenty...


Oh, but 650W is???  Come on. That's barely 3% more! 

I did NOT say _that_ TT630, is plenty. I said 630W is. But to be sure, if me, I would probably go for a 750W 80 PLUS certified. Why? To ensure my PSU had plenty of headroom for any future (known or unknown) upgrades, and so it would not be straining under the computer's maximum load, thus would run cooler and, in turn the fan would run slower, thus quieter.

Too much PSU does not hurt anything, but maybe add a few $$$ to the initial costs. I note for just $10 more (with rebate), you can go from an Antec 600W to an Antec 750W 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified.


----------



## Masterchiefxx17 (Feb 27, 2010)

bearsus said:


> Which PSU would you recommend?: )


My recommendation is a XFX or Seasonic branded PSU rated at 650Ws.



Bill_Bright said:


> Nobody's doing that!
> 
> Oh, but 650W is???  Come on. That's barely 3% more!
> 
> ...


And yet, everybody is doing that.

Power supplies rarely hit their 100% efficiency. So a 630W PSU may only operate that the minimum Nvidia requirement of 600Ws. So yes 3% can make a difference.

You're right on the brand of TT. I'm not going against your argument there.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> And yet, everybody is doing that.


No they aren't! And for sure, I didn't! So please don't attempt to speak for "everyone"! Extremes and absolutes don't set the rule. 

For one, I used the highly regarded *eXtreme PSU Calculator Lite*. Then I added buffer space by bumping Capacitor Aging to 10% and both TDP and system load to 100%. And I added additional fans and drives to get a minimum of 490W. 490 + 15% = 563.5W. 

630W (if 80 PLUS from a quality maker) is more than 28.5% above the 490W minimum required. Not 15%.  

And FTR, I said I would go with a 750W 80 PLUS certified for a 25% buffer over that 600W. 

So clearly - not everyone is doing it! 



> So a 630W PSU may only operate that the minimum Nvidia requirement of 600Ws. So yes 3% can make a difference.




Okay - so you report 600W is the minimum, then are critical of "_everyone_" for adding 15%. Yet you recommend 650W which is just *8.33%* over _your_ 600W minimum!!! *8.33%*??? :banghead:

And let's be realistic about that extra 3%, okay? Yes, _technically_, an extra 3% "can" make a difference. But the reality is, if the demands are such that just 3% more capacity does make a difference, then the supply was too small to begin with! 

A PSU needs considerably more than 3% headroom - ESPECIALLY if it might be expected to support additional hardware (more RAM, added or attached drives, or bigger graphics solution) some time down the road. 

Also, all electronics "age" over time. PSUs are no exception and tend to lose more than 3% of their capacity over their lifespan just through normal component aging! This is exactly why the better PSU calculators allow you to factor in aging. 



> Power supplies rarely hit their 100% efficiency.


 No power supply will EVER hit 100% efficiency. As in NEVER EVER!!! Or at least not in the next couple centuries! And even then, "superconductor" technologies will likely be too expensive for home consumers. 

BTW, you can follow the link in my sig to decide for yourself if I might know a little something about electronics, electronics theory, power demands, and how power supplies in electronic systems work. I am not just an enthusiast or experienced user. 

And to be sure, I am not trying to argue or to point fingers by saying this person is wrong and that person is right. I am just trying to get the best correct information out to the posters. 

****

I have used XFX and Seasonic PSUs and like them too. But just like Antec and Corsair (my preferred brands) or TT and other brands, they all make lessor quality, entry-level, budget PSUs, better quality mid-grade (and mid-priced) PSUs, and top quality higher priced PSUs. So buying just for the brand name is not a good idea. Research the PSU under consideration by specific model number. 

Look at reviews from professional review sites. Do NOT put your total faith in "user reviews" at retail sites like Amazon and Newegg unless there are MANY reports of the exact same problem! Note that most happy users don't complain, or write reviews. And most user reviews are written within a day or two of receiving the product - not after months of real-world use. And most users don't know how to properly test, compare, or review electronics, even if they had the proper test equipment to do so - which they likely don't.

And regardless, until Man can create perfection 100% of the time, there will always be samples coming off the production line that fail prematurely - even from the most reliable makers.


----------



## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

> No power supply will EVER hit 100% efficiency. As in NEVER EVER!!!


Yes, as described in the laws of thermodynamics. In the computer's power supply a lot of manipulation is going on to convert mains AC to clean DC of the required voltages. At each of these steps, entropy dictates that a bit of useful power will be lost to the environment. The result of this power loss is heat, which is why PSUs need cooling fans.

Seasonic PSUs currently are among the better-built ones but this doesn't mean that other brands are all terrible (though some, like Diablotek, certainly are). One thing that Seasonic often does is to actually underrate it's wattage output description. Therefore, the same Seasonic-made power supply may be rated as a 620 W if sold by Seasonic and a 650 W if sold by a re-brander.

The best way to see if a new PSU has enough headroom for component aging while still maintaining its rated output is to go to those better hardware review sites where the techs use the proper equipment to load test them. Here, you may find that a good Seasonic can actually provide 15% more power than it says it will, whereas a mid-quality PSU might be just within specs and a horrible Diablotek literally explode at only 75% of its rated output. The gist of this being that a "fudge factor" is probably more important when considering a cheaper PSU versus a quality one.


----------



## Masterchiefxx17 (Feb 27, 2010)

> No they aren't! And for sure, I didn't! So please don't attempt to speak for "everyone"! Extremes and absolutes don't set the rule.


Yet, your comment of "nobody" is acceptable? So please don't attempt to speak for "everyone".

Instead of going back and forth in the OP's thread we will end this here. If you would like to continuing the convocation then please PM me.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Gee whiz, was that really necessary? I meant "nobody" in this thread was doing that - which was true! My apologies to "everyone" for not making that perfectly clear.  

I am not here to split hairs, but you suggesting "_everyone_" adding 15% is wrong while you added a mere 8.33% in your recommendation hardly makes sense. :facepalm:

Have a good day. 

***

@MPR :thumb: Thanks for the reiterations and additional detail. I might add that power output is also a function of efficiency and while the better 80 PLUS PSUs have a relatively "flat" curve across a wide range of expected loads (20%, 50%, and 100% - plus 10% for 80 PLUS Titanium PSUs), it is not perfectly flat. And sadly, the ATX Form Factor Standard for PSUs does not stipulate a specific load level to be used to determine the advertised rating. It could be peak at this one load rating (like that TT above) or an average across the entire range - or something in between. But the 80 PLUS Certification standards do stipulate how to establish the true ratings. How marketing weenies :angry: advertise it is for another discussion, however. 

So the actual load values when testing, in addition to tolerance variations between each production line sample is why this professional review site might say 620W and that review site might say 630W. 

Also, arguably, the current available on the +12VDC rail is the most critical value, yet the total "advertised" output consists of the power across all rails, including 5 and 3.3VDC. So technically, the advertised power rating alone is not enough to ensure you get the right PSU for your particular hardware. This is where adding a sufficient buffer to ensure adequate overhead can save you money in the long run - not to mention, sticking with a reliable brand, and model that is 80 PLUS Certified. 

***

@bearsus - sorry for unnecessary distractions. While 620 - 650W is technically enough, I would urge you get a bit bigger - in the 700 to 750W range to ensure the supply will meet your needs 2, 3, or 4 years into the future. Also, a larger PSU will be less strained when pushed and that will help minimize PSU fan noise. 

Remember, the computer will draw only what it needs, not what the PSU can deliver. That is, if your computer (motherboard, graphics, drives, RAM, PC powered USB devices), needs 400W, it will draw from the PSU 400W, regardless if the PSU is rated at 620W or 1KW. And the PSU will draw from the wall 400W, plus another ~60 to 120 watts due to PSU inefficiencies (based on 70 - 85% efficiency) wasted in the form of heat - again regardless if the PSU is rated at 620W or 1000W.


----------



## Tyree (May 10, 2009)

For a GTX780 GPU, you want to be at 650W with a good quality PSU. SeaSonic-XFX-Antec HCG are top quality.


----------



## Tyree (May 10, 2009)

@ Bill_Bright


Masterchiefxx17 said:


> Instead of going back and forth in the OP's thread we will end this here. If you would like to continuing the convocation then please PM me.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

@Tyree - thanks but I don't discuss technical issues via PM. That goes against the very concept and nature of "forums" (not to mention, the rules of the site) where everyone has, or should have, an opportunity to participate, share, and perhaps learn something new along the way.

But to your concerns, I understand fully, and my post above ended my participation in the side issues, and I have replied to the PM I got. 

****

So back on point and @bearsus - I agree, based on what "we know", a 630 - 650W from a quality maker will "probably" meet your needs just fine. Not _that_ TT 630W, but a quality 80 PLUS certified PSU (which includes your 80 PLUS Bronze Corsair 650W). All quality PSUs are designed and rated for "continuous" output so no harm (in theory!!!) will come if the 650W is continuously pushed near its limits. But a pushed PSU will generate lots of heat, and will force the PSU fan to spin at or near full speed - and maximum noise levels - with no room for future expansions and power hungry upgrades. 

The problem is, no one here knows what you have in your computer! We don't know how many hard drives, SSDs, case fans or RAM sticks you have installed. And neither does your graphics card maker. We don't know what, if any, attached devices (without separate power supplies) you have attached to your system via USB or eSATA. Or if you have any installed cards, besides the one graphics card. 

We don't know if you are thinking about adding more RAM, more drives, more fans or a second or bigger graphics card in the next year or two. We don't know if you might want a bigger 130W i7 instead of that 84W i5.

So 650, or even my 750 are just guesses and opinions. 

That's where the *PSU calculator* comes in. No guessing!

Oh, and btw, I recommend the Pro version of the calculator for enthusiasts and for those who provide technical support. $10 for a lifetime (well, 200 years anyway) license is worth it, IMO. The pro version not only allows you to factor in upto 6 graphics cards and actual current on the 3 rails, but will calculate UPS requirements too. Very handy since we all have our computers and network gear on a "good" UPS with AVR, right?


----------



## Tyree (May 10, 2009)

The GPU is the primary consume of power so if the PSU has sufficient power for the GPU, you're good.
630W would be sufficient for the GTX780 but the PSU's we use/recommenced have no 630W models.......so we suggest 650W.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> 630W would be sufficient for the GTX780 but the PSU's we use/recommenced have no 630W models.......so we suggest 650W.


 Thanks for that!

I see a Seasonic 620W on the list, but it makes sense to "round up" rather than down. 

That said, I note the site's [excellent!!!] Power Supply Information and Selection guide containing your suggested 650W supply also recommends the use of the eXtreme Power Supply Calculator I mentioned above. But it clearly says,


> We highly recommended that you use the capacitor ageing feature set to 30% or add 30% to the total watts the calculator determines


I was more conservative with 10%, but nevertheless, if using the guide and the recommended 30%, with 1 SSD, 1 SATA HD, 1 DVD, 2 120mm fans, 2 sticks of DDR3 RAM, and CPU utilization and Load set to 100%, I get a minimum of 549W and recommended 599W. 

650W provides barely 9% headroom, and the user may have 4 sticks of RAM and more drives and fans. We don't know. But I personally would like more headroom if I expect the PSU to carry me through several years of service and upgrades. So I stick with my recommendation for a good, 750W 80 PLUS. The recommended Corsair TX750, which is what I have, BTW, seems like a good choice.


----------



## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

power supply calculators are only good if actually know how to use them properly.

You have to factor in things such as capacitor aging and such.

I always go by the old rule although its not really needed these days due to high efficiency but I take the recommended psu wattage for the gpu and add 30%. I always go seasonic for my power supplies and most are 90% or more efficient.

Seasonic put 90% on their PSUs but most are actually higher than this. They are actually working on their newer designs at the moment and one model it is claimed to be 97.5% efficient.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> power supply calculators are only good if actually know how to use them properly.
> 
> You have to factor in things such as capacitor aging and such.


Know how to use them? All you do is plug in your components. If you don't know what components you have, you probably should not be selecting your own PSU. 

As far as "capacitor aging and such", that's what the instructions at the bottom of the calculator page are for. And regardless, the card maker may, or may not be making those adjustments. This maker might while that one may not. So again, guesses and assumptions - not specifics as would be used with the calculator. 



> I always go by the old rule although its not really needed these days due to high efficiency but I take the recommended psu wattage for the gpu and add 30%.


Old rule? I've been supporting PCs since the original IBM PC with the AT (years before ATX) Form Factor and never heard of that rule. I am not saying it does not exist, but it sure is not widely used as a rule of thumb. I have seen, however, multiplying your total requirements by 1.2 to add a 20% buffer. 

The fact is, that is just an arbitrary number because as I noted before, the *graphics card makers have no clue* how many drives, number of RAM sticks, or which CPU you are using. You could easily be using a slow dual-core CPU with 2 sticks of RAM and 1 HD, or a power hungry 6-core with 4 or more sticks of RAM and 6 hard drives. Picking the card's recommendation as a baseline does not take any of those variables into consideration. 

Plus, many graphics card makers do NOT even publish that information - so again, a good calculator with those values in its database comes into play. 

That said, I think adding 30% is a good, safe, choice. 

I like Seasonic PSUs too, but it is a mistake to assume all Seasonics are created equal. Just like Antec, Corsair, or TT, they have a wide range of products, some great, some not as great. For example, Seasonic still sells a variety of 80 PLUS Bronze supplies, which typically are in the low 80% range. Still excellent because, being 80 PLUS Certified that 82 - 85% is across a variety of loads.

That said, using the information in this thread, the card's recommended 600 W plus your 30% extra would yield 780W. So with that your recommendation would be a 800W supply! 

I think that is overkill. It will certainly work, but with a bigger ding on the budget. 

Using the card maker's recommendation for a base line is little more than a guess. Because again, they don't know what else your PSU is supporting.

To be sure, the ONLY PSU calculator I would recommend is the eXtreme calculator mentioned as only it (AFAIK) allows you to factor in specific cards, CPUs, etc.


----------



## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

I agree on extreme calculator as for the wattage I would actually drop my 30% for a 600w to 750 and not 780 as it would be. The reason I do the 30% thing is because as you say the makes don't know how may drives and devices you have but unless you have some sort of mega build with tons of hard drives and your running 127 usb devices at the same time and overclocking then 30% is a sensible way to go imo.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> unless you have some sort of mega build with tons of hard drives and your running 127 usb devices at the same time and overclocking then 30% is a sensible way to go imo.


Well, again, based on what starting point? The graphics card recommendation which is based on some arbitrary system made up by each card maker? There is no consistency this way. 

Many less powerful, older CPUs consume lots more power than many of today's more powerful CPUs. And I know many users of less powerful systems who just keep adding drives as space is consumed. Or they pull their drives from their old systems and install them as secondary drives in their new system so they have access to their old data. 

I am saying you don't need a mega build to consume lots of power. 

If all you know is what the graphics card maker recommends, then I agree adding 30% is a sensible way to go - to be safe. That is, to ensure you do not go too small. 

Too big is fine, too small is not. 

But if you want to select enough power with enough headroom to carry you through the foreseeable future, without going overboard and unnecessarily bust the budget, learn to use the calculator! It is easy, and is based on actual power demands for you specific components. With the calculator, you are not hazarding a guess based on some arbitrary number made up by the graphics card maker that may, or may not apply to your specific hardware requirements.

I see no shame in using a quality tool like the eXtreme Calculator to calculate power supply requirements. I see that as significantly more professional, not to mention accurate, than "guestimating" based on some arbitrary number posted by some arbitrary card maker. 

Something else to consider. Note the following PSU requirements for essentially the same card by different makers: ASUS and Gigabyte GTX 760 Ti. ASUS' suggestion is actually more valuable to me as an electronics technician, but I don't believe most computer users would understand the ASUS value, or what to do with it, compared to Gigabyte's. Not a worry with the calculator.


----------



## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

yes well I used to test power supplies for a living. The system we used and I use isn't guessing at what you need.

You take what the power is for the psu and double it or just about (thats what the gpu manufacturers use) then you add the 30% for everything else. A cpu at an an extreme overclock with a high voltage, RAM and 10 or so drives and your good.

With a simple system that contains one hard drive and a cpu at stock your still good because your not cutting into the efficiency of the psu.

Now for instance you had a basic setup with no overclock, 1 hard drive etc and say a gtx 570 I would still say 650w but if you were to get a psu that was 1050w you would be limiting the psu efficiency and it would degrade faster than normal.

Also to note most of the 80% efficiency thing is just what manufacturers state to say they have met a basic set of standards there is actually no set authority to test power supplies.

But there is 3 main rules that we used, if a psu uses gold high grade capacitors then there's a good chance its a good one. if its aluminum throw it in the trash. If it uses seasonics specifications or produced by them then it will be a good one.

You can always find this info out although thats not to say you do get the odd DOA or duff one but not in the same scale as kingwing or any made by sirtec.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> yes well I used to test power supplies for a living.


Well, I used to test and repair power supplies, and the electronics they supported for a living too. And this was not just for computer and network systems, but air traffic control instrument landing and communications systems as a formally trained and certified master electronics technician. So I am sorry, but your information is not correct. Card makers use an arbitrary "average" computer system, then they actually measure the current requirements and power consumption of their cards, add a little buffer, then add that to that arbitrary "average" value of what they are _guessing_ is the average computer. 

And I say arbitrary because that is what it is. There is no industry standard for what constitutes an "average" computer system. So Gigabyte has their average, ASUS theirs, and XFX have theirs. And those average systems are likely different from what NVIDIA and AMD use too. 



> but if you were to get a psu that was 1050w you would be limiting the psu efficiency and it would degrade faster than normal.


Nope, also not true - not for quality designed and built PSUs - thus not for 80 PLUS Certified PSUs. 85% efficient is 85% efficient. Period! It does not matter if the 350W load is being fed by an 85% 650W supply or an 85% 1200W watts supply. 350W + plus 15% is 402.5W being pulled from the wall, regardless! And the same 52.5W is being wasted in the form of heat. 

*IF* these were very basic design, cheap power supplies, they would have a bell curve for an efficiency curve as noted in that earlier TT supply. Note it is only 87% efficient at one load point, and in that case, you would be correct. But this is why you want and we recommend 80 PLUS PSUs because they MUST, to be certified, be efficient across the full range of expected loads. 



> Also to note most of the 80% efficiency thing is just what manufacturers state to say they have met a basic set of standards there is actually no set authority to test power supplies.


Ummm, nope. Not really right either. *ATX12V Form Factor PSU Design Guide, Ver 2.2, March 2005* establishes the standards for all ATX PSUs. But as noted on page 8, they are lousy standards.


> Minimum measured efficiency is required to be 70% at full and 72% at typical (~50%)
> load and 65% at light (~20%) load. The recommended guidance is 77% at full load, 80% at
> typical (50%) load and 75% at light (20%) load to provide direction for future
> requirements.


I agree that the manufacturers can pretty much say what they want - as illustrated by the link to that TT I provided earlier. But if they want their PSU to earn *80 PLUS Certification*, and thus be recommended by hardware review sites and people like us, they MUST submit their PSUs to Plug Load Solutions for certification. If they don't meet those "voluntary" standards, they do not get certified and most importantly, they cannot say they are 80 PLUS certified. 



> If it uses seasonics specifications or produced by them then it will be a good one.


Nah! Not buying that "blanket statement" for a second. NO DOUBT Seasonic makes great supplies. But to suggest a supply "_will be a good one_" just because Seasonic makes it, is unrealistic. 

For sure, look for reliable brands when doing your homework. But buy a specific model because professional review sites say it is good. Not just because it has a reliable brand name stamped on it.

And contrary to what many here seem to believe, there are other good PSU makers besides Seasonic.


----------



## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

I agree with you that there are other good manufacturers other than seasonic, but seasonic have been top for a long time (and I am talking about PCs not other things that have nothing to do with this forum).

second yes there is a standard but nothing that anyone has to adhere to.

And third I can't be arsed talking to someone who thinks he knows everything and basically trolls the forums once in a while.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> (and I am talking about PCs not other things that have nothing to do with this forum).


First, for some reason for which I cannot fathom, so many advanced users and even many self taught computer experts whom I consider my colleagues and forum peers just don't seem to understand that computers are "electronic" devices. And in spite of what these folks truly believe in their hearts, as electronics devices, electrons flow through their circuits just the same as they flow through TVs, microwave ovens, radio receivers, cell phones, coffee pots, etc. And therefore, the electrons flow through these devices in compliance with the Laws of Physics, just like electrons flow in computers, and computer power supplies. This is something anyone with any formal training in basic electronics understands - but so many computer users who don't come from that background seem not to get. 

That is just an observation, not a criticism. I don't expect my fellow experts to be certified master electronics technicians and have a thorough understanding of the Laws of Physics as they apply to electronics, or be experts at electron flow (or is it hole flow? ). But I do expect them to accept that computers are electronics too. 

So my point is, a power supply is a power supply. Just because a switched-mode AC power supply is used to supply DC voltages in a PC, that does not mean the same supply will behave differently than a switched-mode AC power supply that supplies DC voltages in other devices.

Yes, Seasonic has "earned" a reputation for making quality PC PSUs. But that does not mean all Seasonics meet the same very high standards, nor does it mean there are not other brands that produce equally high quality PSUs - perhaps at a less painful price for the one a tight budget seeking our advice. 

The above are just the simple facts. But my personal "opinion" (for whatever that's worth) as a helper on forums like this, is to ensure users get a "quality 80-PLUS Certified" PSU without busting the budget and _technically speaking_, it really does not matter who the maker is. I like Seasonics, Antecs and Corsairs, but I am not going to push someone away from the Rosewill Fortress 450W (assuming 450 meets their need) just because it comes from Rosewill and not one of my preferred brands - even though Rosewill has a "past" reputation for producing lousy supplies. 

Why? Because as I noted before (and you can verify yourself through the 80 PLUS link I provided - and not take my word on it), to achieve a "flat" efficiency curve across the full range of expected loads, and to the "EARN" an 80 PLUS certification, the PSU MUST have a quality design using quality parts and quality assembly techniques - then pass very stringent testing. Brand is NOT a factor! 

And that takes me to your second point,


> second yes there is a standard but nothing that anyone has to adhere to.


 NOT TRUE!!!  Curious? Did you read my last post? As I tried to point out in my last post, with a link to the official source, that is NOT true! The ATX Form Factor PSU Design Guide establishes MANDETORY standards for ALL ATX compliant power supplies that makers MUST adhere to if they want their PSUs designated as ATX PSUs. The ATX Form Factor Standard ensures "any" ATX compliant PSU will support "any" ATX compliant motherboard, and will mount in "any" ATX compliant case. The standard also establishes voltages and tolerances for those voltages, to include minimum efficiency and ripple values. And the mandatory standard even establishes which connectors are used on power supplies, motherboards, and peripheral devices like drives. 

To be sure, manufactures MUST adhere to those standards! *So I am sorry!* But you are wrong to say there is "_nothing that anyone has to adhere to_". 

80 PLUS Certification is not mandatory. So this is where users and advisors need to do their homework, and advisors need to ensure they guide users towards 80 PLUS Certified PSUs, so they avoid mediocre designs. 



 greenbrucelee said:


> And third I can't be arsed talking to someone who thinks he knows everything and basically trolls the forums once in a while.


I feel the same way about someone who stoops to personal attacks when they are unable or unwilling to support their position with facts, or who refuse to accept they posted inaccurate information.  

I research to make sure I am right before posting. I reference sources so readers can see for themselves and don't have to believe me. Why? Because someone will surely point out if post something wrong and I get mad at myself and embarrassed if I give inaccurate advice. But I don't intentionally insult the poster or call them names when I get it wrong and they point it out! I take it as an learning opportunity because contrary to your denigrating accusations, I know there will always be much more to learn in this ever evolving universe of consumer electronics. 

If you want to discuss facts, I am here. If you want to toss personal insults, I am not going there and you won't hear from me again. 

@bearsus - once again I apologize for these unnecessary, distractions.


----------



## Tyree (May 10, 2009)

Tyree said:


> The GPU is the primary consume of power so if the PSU has sufficient power for the GPU, you're good.


Going with a good quality 650W PSU will negate any possible concerns for power, in this particular case.


----------



## T_Rex (Oct 21, 2012)

That's a simple yet very effective solution I agree with Tyree.


----------

