# Plumbing Job



## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

not sure if i posted about this seeing as how the job was done this summer but is this standard plumbing procedure? i asked the plumber to install these 2 shut off valves on my basement kitchen supply lines and he does this garbage. he saw that the cold line already had a old style gate valve so he just cuts off the pipe after it and sticks the new valve there. when i called him abuot it, he said "just condemn the old gate valve and keep it open".. ouff, never calling him again.


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## Gadsden (Mar 10, 2012)

I looks like he might have tried to save you a few bucks. The old valve looks pretty close to everything and taking it out probably would have required a bit of replacement of the copper. Plus, old copper can be tough to sweat. If it works with no leaks, I'd be happy.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> If it works with no leaks, I'd be happy.


That should be a given for a plumber. Wouldn't satisfy me.

He could have cut the pipe all the way to the left side of the other valve and installed it there.

This is a patch job to me.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

That's not atypical of common practice. Although its not the most aesthetically pleasing installation, it is functional.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Ok just making sure


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## Fjandr (Sep 26, 2012)

It looks like the other line is providing support for the line with the old gate valve on it. If that's actually the case, I'd have done the same thing.

You're lucky you got a plumber who uses 1/4-turn valves. So many will still replace an old gate with a new gate.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Fjandr,



> It looks like the other line is providing support for the line with the old gate valve on it. If that's actually the case, I'd have done the same thing.


Yeah it thought about that. Im just not satisfied. He could have done it properly wtv it would have required

And no im not lucky, I bought the materials. Through the help of tsfers and youtube i know which are good brand name parts and i supply them i just dont know how to do the labour otherwise id do it myself..corection, i know how to do the labour im just afraid to get stuck with a problem and have the entire building backed up bc of me. If it were my house alone with no tenants, id have bought my steel brush and emery cloth anddone it already..heck, i even have the blowtorch, flux and solder sitting in my garage already.. Id be soldering also if that were the case.

Buti cant afford to practice/learn on a revenue property like this


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Practice before the skill is needed......:grin: If you have the parts laying around, go for it and practice. I'm sure you can find all kinds of videos that will show you how easy it is to solder water lines. One big trick is that there can be no water in the lines....none at all. 

How old is the solder?? If it has lead content you don't want to use it on your water lines. Flux should be OK unless it's water soluable......I only tried that stuff once and threw it away.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Not sure abt solder but plumber bought it and forgot it here when ge fixed shower last year.. Why did u throw ur flux away


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

I would never solder in a connection if I get a compression fitting to do the job.
Especially a repair job.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Ok but if ur not using a compressiong fitting u need the flux for soldering, why did u throw it out


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Solidify said:


> Not sure abt solder but plumber bought it and forgot it here when ge fixed shower last year.. Why did u throw ur flux away


It was water soluable......worthless. I had more failed joints in a small job (relocated a toilet) than I've had in whole house installations. I finally located my old flux and never had a bit of trouble. 

Solder should be good if it's only a year old......lead free has been code for a long time (at least here in my area). 

For the stops, compression is the way to go......it can get tricky when applying heat to do the soldering and is easy to ruin something. Just don't over-tighten the compression nut......the connection will leak if too much torque is applied. Tighter is not better.....:nonono:. I only did that once......and ended up soldering the connection due to time and not wanting to make a trip to the supply house for 1 part. If I have large projects I go to a supply house and stay away from home improvement stores.


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## Flight Sim Guy (Dec 19, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong with it. Without seeing where the pipe comes out of the wall I would say he did it on purpose so the other pipe would support it. It's not because he was taking a shortcut or "patching" it since cutting it off to the left wouldn't be any harder than where he did.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> If I have large projects I go to a supply house and stay away from home improvement stores.


Good idea since I have about 15 valves to install. 

FSG, to me that's a shorcut. If the guy had to sweat the old valve off and put the new one there, that's a good job. Or even if he cut the pipe to the left side and installed it there, would've better a better job than making an existing valve obsolete, in my opinion. More valves means more unnatural joints, thus more chances of leaks. Just my two cents.


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## Gadsden (Mar 10, 2012)

A little off-topic but if I'm understanding your posts, you are supplying the parts for the plumber to install. I understand the savings but most tradesmen frown on this as the markup (10-20% +-) is part of the "making a living" factor. Plus, the plumber has to rely on what you bought and not his preferred brand...maybe.

I have heard it compared to taking your eggs and bacon into a restaurant and asking them to cook them up for you.

Maybe not a bid deal in your instance but something to consider.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I see where you're coming from regarding the markup but with all due respect to tradesmen, that's not my problem. We're all trying to save here.

The phrase "Are you covering the materials?" would not have be coined unless it were valid in these circumstances. You can't expect me, or anyone else for that matter, to deliberately allow the tradesman to supply the parts knowing that he will mark me up on the price. If I can save somewhere, I will. And I'm sure others will feel similarly.

Now, regarding the brand. My plumber always tells me the brands to buy so that's not a problem. But between research and your guys' help, I don't think I have to worry about buying wrong or irreputable brands. someone already confirmed my choice to use 1/4-turn Brasscraft compression valves with steel-braided speedways.

Even tiles-men, painters and drywall crews ask you if you are supplying materials for their job. This isn't any different.

Gadsen, I see your point but I feel no remorse for trying to save money. Tradesmen can't expect their customers to knowingly take the dive for them if they have the opportunity to save. With that in mind, _they_ should find new ways to earn their markup.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Things must be different in Canada......I've never been asked if I am going to supply materials when contracting a job out. I use supply houses when doing my own large scale jobs......never when hiring a contractor. The reason why the contractor asks if you are supplying the materials is to make adjustments to the labor bill......you may be wasting your time and not saving anything. On small jobs the contractor may be losing money when supplying materials......it takes money to maintain an inventory.....it takes time and money to make a run to the supplier.....it takes time (or money) to keep an accounting staff.

Unless things have changed, supply houses do not sell to the public. I was in the trades and knew many people......and had contacts. The company I worked for was a General Contractor and had accounts at many supply houses. But, if I didn't pay cash for personal purchases I was charged 10% by my employer.......it's only fair.


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

A supply house may not sell items in the quantity you want. You said that you need 15 valves, the standard package could be 20. They will not sell you only 15.

BG


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## Fjandr (Sep 26, 2012)

The "standard procedure" really can vary from place to place, so consider you've probably got people answering the question from all over the place, and with varying amounts of experience from the perspective of property owner and/or tradesman. Keep that in mind when reading the replies here.

As long as you told him upfront you were providing parts, that's alright. If not, it screws up cost calculations. If it's a small enough job, and that was the case, he probably just wrote it off. For anything larger, you'd pay for the lost markup in higher labor rates, negating any savings. That's what I'd do as the tradesman if I marked up materials (though I don't do so; after a written warning to the client about the pros and cons to them, it saves me time, bookkeeping, & transport costs, and it's simply more labor hours billed if a client makes a mistake at their own insistence). 

In general, having to rely on property owners is one of the single largest headaches of being a contractor. The more logistical involvement the property owner has, the larger the headaches. Supply problems, which are more likely when you're (the contractor) not running the supply chain, usually cause serious scheduling problems for anyone with a successful (busy) business. There are many places where the top contractors simply won't bid your job if you insist on supplying materials, or the bids will end up having a higher (often significantly) net cost to protect against the much higher chance of time lost. Of course, this is more an issue for jobs involving significant work. Your mileage will likely vary, though, since the trades in Quebec may differ significantly from the areas I've done construction and remodel work in the USA. As SABL, I've never been asked if I'm going to supply materials as a client, nor have I ever asked a client if they were going to supply materials.

As for the pipe support, if there was no other means of supporting it (as is common when fixing older work), he could very well have saved you several hundred dollars in parts and labor. And no, sweating the old fitting off would not have been an option to any plumber with integrity. That's a recipe for failure, and usually sooner rather than later. If cost and looks are that important, the only way you'll get both is by doing it yourself. In that case, practice on down-time is essential.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> If it's a small enough job, and that was the case, he probably just wrote it off. For anything larger, you'd pay for the lost markup in higher labor rates, negating any savings.


There's no way I'd accept a contract if he'd tell me I need to pay him a higher labour rate as a result of providing my own materials. If that were the case I'm just find someone else to do the job, because that's preposterous.



> it's simply more labor hours billed if a client makes a mistake at their own insistence


Depending on the job, I try to find a tradesman that will charge me for the job and not by the hour.



> There are many places where the top contractors simply won't bid your job if you insist on supplying materials, or the bids will end up having a higher (often significantly) net cost to protect against the much higher chance of time lost. Of course, this is more an issue for jobs involving significant work.


You must understand that if I were doing major renovations (i.e.: redoing an entire bathroom or kitchen, or something of that extent, I would just pay the tradesmen whatever they ask and have them supply their own materials. But for a small job like this (valves), where I know that I can easily supply my preferred valves and speedways for less than the plumber would charge me, I will do it.

Contractors don't always ask if we're supplying the materials; it's usually us to bring it up and they don't mind it. but there have been cases when they do ask about it before we even brought it up.



> As for the pipe support, if there was no other means of supporting it (as is common when fixing older work), he could very well have saved you several hundred dollars in parts and labor. And no, sweating the old fitting off would not have been an option to any plumber with integrity. That's a recipe for failure, and usually sooner rather than later. If cost and looks are that important, the only way you'll get both is by doing it yourself. In that case, practice on down-time is essential.


OK, I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Flight Sim Guy (Dec 19, 2011)

Remember too, tradesmen usually get a discount materials, where a regular customer won't. We get 10% off at our contractor supply store because we have a contractors account.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Whenever i get a plumber to do work here and ask the total i can hear him counting the cost of the materials in his head and always see that he beefs up the prices in his head.. Thats the reason i try to supply the materials bc i dont like it when they try to stiff me.. Im all for charging wtv salary u want per hour but dont charge me more for parts than u paid for them.. That just bothers me. Make ur profit margins on the hourly rate


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Nobody is stiffing anyone....you are in need of services and need to pay fairly. If you want a 'low-ball' rate you will have to do the job yourself or hire an incompetent contractor who will not be in business for long. It makes no difference if 'mark-up' or increased labor determines the final cost....you will pay the price. Best scenario is NTE.....set price per hour with a Not To Excede bottom line. The cost will have a cap.....works good if the contractor knows his beans. Both parties are protected to an extent but the contractor may be the one to lose.


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## Fjandr (Sep 26, 2012)

Indeed, what SABL is saying was part of my point. A specific price structure is that way because it saves time and takes into account the vagaries of a job. It's why many contractors make a base bid by square footage of work. They have calculated the average materials costs, and then adjust based on specifics which fall outside of typical jobs. And yes, as was mentioned earlier, if a tradesman is charging straight materials costs, you're almost certainly paying more by buying the parts yourself. I know that's true anywhere in the Sates where supply houses (wholesalers) are barred by law from selling to anyone without a sales tax exemption, and is very frequently true in the States where anyone can purchase from them.

If their prices involve materials markups, there's nothing unethical about surcharging a client who is supplying their own. It's no different than one charging higher hourly or increasing their per-square-foot bids. Where they build in their profit is just bookkeeping. If a client requests a change to a part of their bookkeeping which changes their profit calculations, it's not at all reasonable to expect the contractor to simply eat the loss. Switching to another contractor who accepts your deal means their profit is built in somewhere else; you're not actually going to pay less when the final bill comes due.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

I have done residential work in the past. Owners have supplied materials to me, and I make it perfectly clear that I offer no warranty on those materials.

If I supply parts, part of the margin in markup goes to cover additional costs incurred from new parts that I supply, that may be faulty right out of the box. It happens. That isn't the customers fault they are bad, and I brought them, so its my responsibility to make the situation right. I supply parts that have a reputation for quality. Call backs cost contractors money.

Back to the restaurant analogy. If I'm the cook, and you bring me rotten eggs to prepare for you, and you don't like them, that's on you. If the eggs I prepare are mine, and you don't like them, I'll do everything I can to rectify the circumstance.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Vegas, if I would have made the plumber supply his own parts, he would have installed me wtv he had lieing around in his truck and not new parts (to save on costs) and then still charge me as if he purchased the part new. And even then, if that shut off leaks after a year, and I call him and say hey, this is the one you installed, remember.. so since it's your faulty part, you should replace it (using your logic Vegas). 

Not only do i supply parts to try to save on the cost of those parts but also to ensure i can pick good quality parts. my plumber wont offer me this insurance to come back and fix it a year later if it leaks, even if its his part he installed. 

option 1: i supply the valves and speedways so he only charges me his hourly rate and i pay wtv the cost of the parts are where i purchased them

option 2: he supplies the parts (over charges me for them to make a few more bucks, despite probably having gotten them for cheaper like you're all saying) and then he still charges me the same hourly rate he wouldve charged me in option 1.

This is why option 1 is more enticing


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## Fjandr (Sep 26, 2012)

If your assumptions about parts and parts charges are true, you're working with shoddy contractors anyway. If you're getting good contractors, your assumptions about them installing used parts and charging above-new prices are likely way off base. The two situations are mutually exclusive to each other.

As for quality parts, you don't have to buy them yourself to specify the type used. It's your prerogative to spec certain parts, even if you're not buying them directly. That's how contracts work in most of the industrialized world.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

ah this is so complicated. everyone wants to make or save a buck. it's so difficult to find honest work. just gonna let them use wtv they want from now on.


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## Fjandr (Sep 26, 2012)

It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Most decent tradespeople are honest and willing to work with customer requests. Typically, the easiest way to accomplish that in a way which is easy to accommodate is to simply request parts by type or brand. If that's an issue with the person you're talking to, it's usually not much of a problem finding a brand or style compromise that's acceptable to you both for a given price.

Mostly what it comes down to is knowing what you want, communicating that concisely to the contractor, listening to any concerns the contractor has in relation to what you want, and not immediately assuming the other person is trying to cheat you. The last part is particularly important.

If you have an articulable reason for believing them to be dishonest, I'd strongly suggest not using them in the first place. If you don't, giving someone the benefit of the doubt will usually make both your lives easier in the long run. Chronic mistrust is seriously psychologically draining.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

Its really not that complicated. Best thing for you to do is get references from locals, if you don't want to take care of it yourself. Good guys don't chase work, work chases them.


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## Fjandr (Sep 26, 2012)

> Good guys don't chase work, work chases them.


Truer words have not been spoken.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Good guys are also expensive. I'm asking for too much trying to get the best of both worlds.


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

What is wtv you refer to?

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Nothing specific i just mean ill let them take care of supplies


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