# First Build (Mid-End)



## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

I've been thinking about building my own pc for nearly a year now, after my latest purchase was a flawed, outdated and terribly overpriced system that is now merrily grinding to a halt with a busted DVD burner, crappy fans, unresponsive front bezel I/O interfaces and a near-failing hard-drive which was apparantly screwed to the front of the case.

Over the past months I've been looking at various components, but was pretty much dumbfounded whenever I started looking at CPU's and motherboads. I can't begin to make an intelligent decision when it comes to this, which is why I'm typing this now. I was originally planning to build a relatively cutting edge system, but have rather lost interest in (and time for) gaming so I'm going for a more mid-end system.

I'll put up my answers to the questions in the sticky first:

1. Budget: Something around, preferably less than, 800$. Although with the way prices seem to be converted in the Eurozone, everything will be most certainly more expensive here.

2. Brands: I have a strong dislike for AMD processors after being tricked into buying one because it was reputed to be better for gaming and finding out that it's clock speeds are set a great deal lower than comparable Intel CPUs. On the other hand I vastly prefer ATI GPUs.

3. Multitasking: I'm not sure how to answer this question, but I do tend to do quite a lot of stuff all at the same time. Transferring files, editing in Photoshop, converting music, ripping CD's and all that.

4. Gaming: As said above, I do not plan on playing the most recent games. I would like to be able to play L4D and other recent source games properly. I used to play them on this pc before I upgraded to a 21" monitor running 1680x1050. Now it's pretty much impossible to get a decent framerate on these games. All I need is for it to run Source engine and older games natively on 1680x1050 with a consistent FPS.

5. Calculations: I used to convert quite a lot of video files to view on my handheld devices, but have given up on that due to my harddrive becoming increasingly slower and pretty much full. I do plan on doing that once I get a new pc and the added storage space, but it will not be a priority.

6. Overclocking: I do not currently plan to overclock anything.

7. Storage: I'm still looking into setting up some sort of home-based file server, but that is most likely something of the future. I've dismissed using RAID and am now looking to use two hard drives, one for my OS and a cheaper 0.5 to 1TB storage drive. I've been considering the WD Raptor/Velociraptor drives, but can't really justify their hefty price tag.

8. Legacy Support: No legacy support is required, although I have been thinking about including a floppy drive.

9. Operating System: I intend to run Windows XP Pro SP2, possibly SP3. I've dismissed dual-booting a Linux distro.

10. Case: This is another one of my grips. I was originally going for an Antec 902/P182 or similar case. I don't really like the style however and have recently discovered the Akasa cases due to their size, ease of installation, build quality and style. I'm most likely going for an Akasa Omega case, although I'm a bit torn about the unreversible door that isn't featured on the older Eclipse.

11. Accessories: I might be purchasing new apparel, but it should not factor into this build or it's budget. (I'm currently using a Logitech G15 keyboard and a Microsoft Habu mouse after my MX518 gave out.)

12. Recycled Components: No internal components.

13. Monitor: I am and will be using a SyncMaster 2223NW 21" 16:10 widescreen monitor. I might be purchasing a smaller monitor to hook up to my old pc but that is not an issue for this build.

14. Stores: I do not know of any online stores that ship to my location (Belgium). I have found one retailer with an online site that has most common components in stock with numerous storefronts throughout the country, but it is quite overpriced. I should be able to get my hands on most components though, Akasa cases seemingly being one of the most hard to find.

15. Location: Belgium.


Well that's the questionnaire over with. Over the past months I've set my sights on ATI 4830 graphics card, possibly a 4850. I've been considering the HIS IceQ Turbo variant of that due to it's nice cooling, but I don't know if it's worth the added cost. As said, I'm most likely going for an Akasa Omega case with an extra case fan, maybe two, to help keep everything cool, although a normal-clocked system should be stable enough with it's stock cooling.


This is all I can think of at the moment, although I might be forgetting something. I hope someone can help me out with my main problem, which is getting a consistent build together.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

The HIS card is a nice solution but expensive, have a look at the $800 build in the this sticky and see how the price converts, it'll give me an idea as to what we need to do.
http://www.techsupportforum.com/f24...-are-6-suggested-models-with-spec-367415.html


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

Yes I figured the HIS products were on the expensive side, but GPU brands is another area where I easily get confused with every card model, for example the ATI Radeon 4830, getting dozens of version from different manufacturers. From what I've learned on the subject, it's simply a matter of ATI supplying the processor at the heart of the unit with each manufacturer building it's own enclosure (and circuit board?) for it. When they then start throwing abstract specs like the memory type, amount and latency, or worse texture fill rates, pixel shaders and other such technobabble it becomes nigh impossible for me to make an informed decision. The main issue is whether a "vanilla" 4830 is enough for my purpose (i.e. running source games in full 1680x1060 resolution)

I've had the chance to check out that sticky in more detail since I made this topic, and while it does seem to add up to the kind of build I'm going for, there are some issues I still have with it.

Firstly, the case: I'm more and more certain that I'll be going for the Akasa Omega, after confirming that the I/O devices are located on the side, not behind the door (an oversight when I posted this thread). Although I dislike the fact that this will pretty much force me to have it located to the right of my monitor, it's not a big concern and I like the look and quality of the case.

As for the CPU and motherboard, I'm wondering if that 3.0GHZ might not be a bit overkill and if I could cut it down to around 100$ which would seem to indicate a 2.7 to 2.8 GHZ clock rate. While I'm aware of the whole Megahertz myth, I can't begin to intelligently compare cpu's across product lines. Newegg seems to have the Intel Pentium E5400 Wolfdale 2.7GHz 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W listed for 90$ (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116076) and I find it difficult to justify a product that costs nearly twice that for what to my eyes is only 0.3 extra GHZ. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037) I have noticed the 6MB cache compared to the 2MB that the E5400 offers but again I have to wonder if the increase in performance will be noticeable enough to warrant it. Basically all I need is for the CPU to be strong enough not to form a bottleneck for my GPU, which should not be anything higher than a Radeon 4850 or comparable card.

And speaking of the GPU, the Geforce 9800 GTX listed in the sticky (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130339) seems to my eyes (again, novice as they may be) to be similar to what HIS does with it's IceQ Turbo line.

On a sidenote, do I need to worry about high-definition format playback? On my current PC 1280x720 or similar high-resolution video files tend to skip during decode-intensive scenes. I kind of assumed that this would not be a factor in new builds, but the scarcity of information on this has left me somewhat puzzled.

Concerning the motherboard, I can not begin to match them up to my CPU. I should be able to verify any recommendations through online reviews to make a somewhat informed purchase, but selecting one out of the myriad that are available is a daunting task and the main reason why I made this topic. I would like to leave the option of future upgrades open, but it should not be a decisive factor.

As for RAM, I thrust that the suggested 4 GB kit (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231209) will be sufficient and it seems the latencies are fairly low for the price. Although I do have my concerns at one of the comments stating that its heat spreaders obstruct the CPU fan. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16820231209 , review by Despair)

As for the CPU cooler, I have no doubts that it will keep the CPU very cool indeed, but I wonder if it is necessary. It is also listed on newegg for 45$ instead of the price of $35 given in the sticky.(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118019)

As for the power supply, I've read enough to know not to cut costs on this component, and I wonder if a similar modular unit would be available. I'm also a bit concerned about the original price being set at $160.

I'm surprised to see DVD burner prices as low as $30 and even more so to see them for another 10 $ less on newegg. Is there any reason as to why I should go with this instead of one of the cheaper versions? I don't intend to burn a lot of discs so write speeds are not of much importance.

The hard drive is another fickle issue for me, and while I'm still considering getting a small but fast drive and a slower, high capacity one, I have to wonder if it will be worth the added expense. The suggested WD Caviar 640 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218) seems to be a reliable product that matches my needs, and I've always had a fancy for WD.

The operating system should not be included in the build price, but will be XP Pro SP2/3. 



Summing up, I'd like to push the total price down to 600$ or even lower if possible, excluding case and OS. Finding all the components here will likely be problematic if not excessively expensive (I've already seen the Akasa Omega case inflate to 20% over it's original market price in UK-based stores.) and I might have to ask one of my more tech-savvy friends to recommend a store. In a worst case scenario I'll have to contact a local retailer to order all the components for me.

I seem to have outdone myself when it comes to the length of this post. I must apologise for what seems like an enormous wall of text, but I like to convey my thoughts as accurately as possible. If anyone manages to work his way through it and could advise me on this build I would be very much obliged. :tongue:


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

> Yes I figured the HIS products were on the expensive side, but GPU brands is another area where I easily get confused with every card model, for example the ATI Radeon 4830, getting dozens of version from different manufacturers. From what I've learned on the subject, it's simply a matter of ATI supplying the processor at the heart of the unit with each manufacturer building it's own enclosure (and circuit board?) for it. When they then start throwing abstract specs like the memory type, amount and latency, or worse texture fill rates, pixel shaders and other such technobabble it becomes nigh impossible for me to make an informed decision. The main issue is whether a "vanilla" 4830 is enough for my purpose (i.e. running source games in full 1680x1060 resolution)
> 
> The HD 4830 will be fine for your application in source games as well as HD video
> 
> ...


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

I found a "regular" HIS version of the 4830 on newegg for $87 which seems to fit my need, so I'm probable going for that. I'm slightly concerned about having to flash the BIOS to solve an issue with deactivated stream processors and the lack of a crossfire bridge, but I suppose I'll manage.

The E7400 seems like a good compromise. How noticeable would the difference in performance be between this and the E5400 or the E8400? Would it only be important in CPU-intensive tasks like image and video processing? Or is the latter GPU-based? I never could tell with that.

When you say that the P45 chipset is good price/performance wise, does that mean that the motherboard can also have a significant impact on component performance? I've understood that it is mainly a matter of keeping all the components stable, but does performance also depend on the speed of the north/southbridge and so on? Or is it simply to ensure that these do not become a bottleneck for the individual components and anything faster than the components is plain overkill?

I'll probably hold out on getting a custom CPU cooler for now. I've read that the Intel E7400 is easily overclockable so I might buy one later should I decide to crank up the clock rate. Switching CPU coolers should be a simple procedure from what I've heard. On that note, do I need to worry about thermal compound? I expect it to be included with the CPU cooler that comes with the CPU. Will that suffice or should I invest in a "better" paste with the possibility of overclocking or a new cooler in mind?

The extra $10 for the WD Black line is probably justifieable, so I'll get one of those and keep it at that.


And many thanks for providing your valuable insights wrench97, they are most appreciated. ray:


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Vadigor said:


> I found a "regular" HIS version of the 4830 on newegg for $87 which seems to fit my need, so I'm probable going for that. I'm slightly concerned about having to flash the BIOS to solve an issue with deactivated stream processors and the lack of a crossfire bridge, but I suppose I'll manage.
> If you want better performance you are much better off using a single more powerful card then 2 lessor cards, less hassle, less trouble, and not all apps are written to take advantage of Xfire/SLI.
> 
> The E7400 seems like a good compromise. How noticeable would the difference in performance be between this and the E5400 or the E8400? Would it only be important in CPU-intensive tasks like image and video processing? Or is the latter GPU-based? I never could tell with that.
> ...


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

> If you want better performance you are much better off using a single more powerful card then 2 lessor cards, less hassle, less trouble, and not all apps are written to take advantage of Xfire/SLI.


I don't intend to go with a crossfire setup now or even in the foreseeable future. I just wanted to leave the option open.



> The stock heat sink will come with a thermal pad preinstalled it works ok Arctic Silver 5 is good for a couple of degrees 2-5c lower temps.


I might get that if I find it around here for a comparable price. This build won't need it but later ones might.



> At lower screen resolutions the load is on the CPU the higher the resolution the more the GPU matters, the E7400 is a noticeable difference from the E5400, the E8400 will show it's strength in gaming and video encoding more then anyhing else.


I'll go for the E7400 then.


I found the XFX 4830 on a popular British site with a different design from the one on newegg. (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-125-XF) The official site follows the British design (http://www.xfxforce.com/en-gb/products/graphiccards/HD 4000series/4830.aspx) which is also the one I prefer. It uses a cooler that occupies a second expansion slot similar to HIS' line which will do fine. I'll probably go for this unless anyone should argue otherwise.


With that I've got somewhat of a component list together:

Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 Wolfdale 2.8GHz 3MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115206&Tpk=E7400
$120

RAM: G.SKILL PI Black 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231209
$50

Video Card: XFX ATI Radeon HD 4830 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI (PCI-Express)
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-125-XF
$110

Hard Drive: Western Digital Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Hard Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136319
$75

DVD Burner: Whatever I can find.
$30

Power Supply: CORSAIR CMPSU-620HX 620W ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139002
$150


Total: $535
Excluding: Motherboard, Case


As you can see, I still need a motherboard to match this. Will the suggested Gigabyte EP45-UD3L fit this build or should I go for something more or less expensive?

From what I can make of the specifications, it does not support a dual-gpu setup on PCI 2.0, can I still run crossfire on this should I ever decide to upgrade? And it seems to support up to 6 SATA hard drives. (I have no idea what the PATA is for) I was about to ask about the DVD drive until I remembered that they also use a SATA interface, but what about firewire? (I don't need it, I'd just like to know what interface that uses since it doesn't seem to be listed on newegg) Concerning eSATA, are there cable adapters out there or would I need to install a converter in a PCI slot? (I've seen a few of the latter but can't find much on the former)


Once again, thanks for the reply and I hope you can find an answer to my remaining questions so that I can get started on this build. Lord knows it's long overdue. :grin:


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

> From what I can make of the specifications, it does not support a dual-gpu setup on PCI 2.0, can I still run crossfire on this should I ever decide to upgrade?


The UD3L has 1 x16 2.0 video card slot the UD3P and the DQ6 have 2 x16 2.0 slots.



> And it seems to support up to 6 SATA hard drives. (I have no idea what the PATA is for)


Pata is also known as IDE



> but what about firewire? (I don't need it, I'd just like to know what interface that uses since it doesn't seem to be listed on newegg)


Firewire is 1394a the UD3P, UD3R & DQ6 among others have it.



> Concerning eSATA, are there cable adapters out there or would I need to install a converter in a PCI slot? (I've seen a few of the latter but can't find much on the former)


The DQ6, DS3R have eSata 

View them this way it makes it easier> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...2E16813128358,N82E16813128372,N82E16813128346

eSata controller card there quite a few choices this is one> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815201016


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

wrench97 said:


> The UD3L has 1 x16 2.0 video card slot the UD3P and the DQ6 have 2 x16 2.0 slots.


I've done some additional reading on the subject now. I don't need to p



wrench97 said:


> Pata is also known as IDE


Yeah that does ring a bell. ;D



wrench97 said:


> Firewire is 1394a the UD3P, UD3R & DQ6 among others have it.





wrench97 said:


> The DQ6, DS3R have eSata
> View them this way it makes it easier> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...2E16813128358,N82E16813128372,N82E16813128346
> 
> eSata controller card there quite a few choices this is one> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815201016



I've done some more reading and have decided against getting a more expensive motherboard. I don't intend to crossfire and have my doubts at it's efficiency, I don't have any firewire or eSATA devices.

As for the eSATA, it seems there are several solutions to getting these connected to a motherboard that does not have an eSATA connection. The first would be simple cable that converts an internal SATA connector to eSATA to hook up to an eSATA port in a case (the Akasa Omega has one). Another option is a controller card that plugs in on a spare PCI slot and offers an eSATA slot at the back of the case. There seem to be two models for this with the controller either accepting an internal SATA connector and converting the signal without actually being plugged into the motherboard, or an expansion card that does plug in fully into the PCI slot and provides additional eSATA ports. These last also seem to offer internal and/or external eSATA connectors as well as USB ports. I assume there are also similar options for firewire.

One last question I have concerning the Gigabyte motherboards is about the onboard RAID controllers. Are these actually useful or would I require a higher-quality RAID expansion card for these? (I've seen those run into the hundreds of dollars) I wonder if these onboard controllers won't make a dint in the available performance.

The UD3L doesn't have onboard RAID, and I don't feel that it justifies going to a higher category, but I'd still like to know. :wink:



My build so far:


> Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3L LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128372
> $100
> 
> ...


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

I've split this up into two posts to try and break up the giant wall of text. =p


The above build is now semi-complete, with motherboard and CPU pretty much set. Now I have a chance to turn to some other thoughts that crept up as I was looking around.


Firstly, the RAM. I'm most likely going with the suggested GSkill Pi Black 4GB kit (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231209), but was wondering if the difference between this kit for $50 and the Corsair Dominator for $80. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145214) The dominator has slightly lower timings: 5-5-5-15-2T (Whatever the 2T means) compared to the GSkills 4-4-4-12, but the Dominator boasts a 1066 mhz clock as opposed to Gskill's 800mhz. I remember the debate on tight timings versus high bandwidth that no one can really reach consensus on, but is the difference in price (150%) justifieable?


On a further comparison of the WD Caviar drives, I'm going for the Black line. The price difference is negligible and the increased buffer should go a long way.

As for the Caviar Black, I'm going with the 640GB drive. I've considered the larger drives but have no real need for the storage at this time. Furthermore, the 640GB model uses two 320GB platters with the larger capacities using 3. This should cut back on noise (which is supposedly one of the downsides to the Caviar Black), power consumption and access time. Price per GB is similar.



> Value Comparison - WD Caviar Black Line
> Capacity - Price
> GB/$ - $/GB
> 
> ...



As for the power supply, can someone confirm that both the Corsair 620HX (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139002) and the first suggested Corsair 650TX (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005) will be (more than) adequate for this build, keeping in mind that I will likely install several additional hard drives in the future. I want to make sure that I get a power supply that can stay stable under such a load.



And with that I'll end my two-part brainstorming session.


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## oldjoe (Apr 13, 2009)

Corsair RAM $33.00 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145034


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

oldjoe said:


> Corsair RAM $33.00 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145034


I'm not sure what you mean by this unless you're suggesting I reduce the total RAM to 2 instead of 4 GB? Their specs seem to be the same, with the Corsair kit being slightly more expensive with smaller heat spreaders as well as using a low-quality circuit according to one reviewer.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

On the Raid controller Raid is faster when setup for data stripping however it can also become trouble some if 1 drive fails in a 2 disk array you lose the whole array, redundant arrays are more popular for business where back up is important where you have 2 or more drives set up in a redundant array 1 is the main drive and 2 or more are back ups of the exact same data, for 95% of personal use it is unnecessary. High dollar raid controllers are mostly used in business data base use where rebuilding the data from a failed drive can cost thousands of dollars or more. Or fast access across multiple users is required.
I do not use a lot of Raid set ups when ever it can be avoided.

Ram the DOMINATOR 1066 is better performance ram for overclocking then the G Skill at 800 how ever I find the DDR2800 to be more stable and durable.

Both the corsair supplies are very solid units and will handle the load the only thing that would make suggest a larger supply is a more powerful video card or a Quad core cpu or if course both, in modular units it's hard to find a more stable unit then the 620HX.


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

oldjoe said:


> Corsair RAM $33.00 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145034




*very good choice of memory for the price; its performance memory*

however; for gaming you will probably need more than 2 gigs (so adding two more sticks of this same memory would give 4 gigs / and 4 sticks) two sticks of memory produces a much easier and higher overclock than 4 sitcks of memory does, your system is spec'd be to an overclocker 

IMHO; the 2 x 2 gig is the way to fly ................. but its your $$$$

so be careful and think things over well



BTW: the lower the Cas numbers and the lower the "2T" the faster the ram is ....... just make sure which ever one you choose is rated for 2.0 volts or higher; so when you are ready to overclock the ram will be too!


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

wrench97 said:


> On the Raid controller Raid is faster when setup for data stripping however it can also become trouble some if 1 drive fails in a 2 disk array you lose the whole array, redundant arrays are more popular for business where back up is important where you have 2 or more drives set up in a redundant array 1 is the main drive and 2 or more are back ups of the exact same data, for 95% of personal use it is unnecessary. High dollar raid controllers are mostly used in business data base use where rebuilding the data from a failed drive can cost thousands of dollars or more. Or fast access across multiple users is required.
> I do not use a lot of Raid set ups when ever it can be avoided.


Yes I already knew what RAID was, just wondering about the onboard RAID controller, but since I won't be using it the point is moot.



wrench97 said:


> Both the corsair supplies are very solid units and will handle the load the only thing that would make suggest a larger supply is a more powerful video card or a Quad core cpu or if course both, in modular units it's hard to find a more stable unit then the 620HX.


All right then, thanks.



wrench97 said:


> Ram the DOMINATOR 1066 is better performance ram for overclocking then the G Skill at 800 how ever I find the DDR2800 to be more stable and durable.


I'll stick with the GSkill then.



linderman said:


> *very good choice of memory for the price; its performance memory*
> IMHO; the 2 x 2 gig is the way to fly ................. but its your $$$$
> so be careful and think things over well
> 
> BTW: the lower the Cas numbers and the lower the "2T" the faster the ram is ....... just make sure which ever one you choose is rated for 2.0 volts or higher; so when you are ready to overclock the ram will be too!


After some more digging I've worked out that the T2 means the number of clock cycles per request, what does this make the GSkill since newegg didn't provide that information? T1? T2?

I've made up my mind to go for the GSkill 4GB kit, but could you elaborate on that final point you made linderman? According to newegg, the GSkill's voltage is set between 1.8 and 1.9 volts. Is this what you mean by "rated at" or are you referring to the voltage the RAM can handle without burning up? =p I don't really plan on overclocking, but I can't say I won't be curious to push my system up a few hertz. ;D



Build for reference:



> Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3L LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128372
> $100
> 
> ...


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

the real bang for these cpu's and system is they are easy to overclock when you want more speed

yes the 1.8 - 1.9 is the capability of the ram to run at higher voltages

this is probably your best bet for cost and performance

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145215


$34.00 after rebate ............ it takes 8 weeks to get the rebate, but its still a darn good deal


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

I might use that 4GB kit instead of the GSkill depending on what I can find at what price. Remember that I live in the EU so not only can't I use the rebate, I can't order from newegg at all. =p


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

In europe OCZ memory is probably your best choice / look for some OCZ platinum 2 x 2 DDR2-800 ram with the same performance values

CAS 5-5-5-15 at 2.1 volts


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

I've received a few other suggestions to go with a cheaper power supply . People have suggested the modular Corsair HX450 (Link: http://www.corsairmemory.com/products/hx450/default.aspx) Which is apparantly only available in Europe or a Corsair VX 550 (Link: http://www.corsairmemory.com/products/cx/default.aspx). Some even suggested going as low as 400 watts, although it sounds a bit low, this build supposedly only pushes 250 watts at maximum load.

The (semi-)modular HX450 strikes my fancy at the moment, since it should supply adequate power, has modular leads (although several seem to be hardwired), seems to be of good quality and is very affordable. (I've found it for as little as 60EUR, about 78USD)


They also suggeste that I could in fact make do with just a Radeon HD 4670 (Link: http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...-christmas-08-gpu-performance-part-ii-10.html). The price difference between the 4670 and 4830 I feel is negligible and with the 48XX line being the latest and greatest I'll stick to that.


Someone suggested GSkill's DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) 4 GB kit to me instead of the DDR2800. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231166) For only 8 dollars more, this runs at a higher clock, has the same timings as the suggested Corsair 2GB kit, is rated up to 2.1V and looks a hell of a lot better. I'm really digging the light blue, and it should match pretty well with the dark blue motherboard. 

Another remark someone made, is that there wouldn't be much performance difference between the Intel E7400 and the E5400. I kind of have my doubts about this with the E5400 still classed as a Dual Core compared to the E7400 being a Core 2 Duo (Although I don't know if this is anything other than marketing-related), the 2MB L2 cache compared to 3MB and the 800mhz FSB compared to 1066. Pretty much following wrench's reasoning on that.

About the FSB, is it true that it would only "fill up" with RAM running at twice the FSB's clock?


And once again, thanks for all the suggestions.



Build for reference:


> Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3L LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128372
> $100
> 
> ...


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

The HD46xx series is 128 bit data transfer where the HD48xx series is 256 bit.

I would not use a 450w with any modern system, it just does not have the horsepower to push the components to fullest ability for a long time.


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

In europe look for the OCZ 700 watt power supply


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

I must say I have strong doubts about that statement. My system should use around 250 watts on peak load, a 450W power supply seems more than adequate even if I start overclocking.


An interesting reply I've gotten elsewhere was this, and I'll just copy it in full:



> The E5x00 & E7x00 both use the same architecture
> One just has a lower FSB with higher multiplier while the other has a slightly higher FSB with lower multiplier
> The E7x00 has 1MB extra cache which won't benefit you at all
> The rule of thumb is (so far until someone wins the multi vs FSB battle) is that as long as they are the same frequency there are no real world differences
> ...


Can you agree with this person's claims? It seems to make a lot of sense to me at least. 




> In europe look for the OCZ 700 watt power supply


700 Watts? Surely that is an insane amount of power for what is essentially turning into a budget build.


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

how much more money is the OCZ 700 compared to the Corsair 450-VX ?


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

The OCZ 700 is around 80 pounds opposed to the Corsair HX-450 at 65. (117 - 95 USD)

Regardless of the price difference, 700 watt seems like an incredible waste of power. Furthermore the HX-450 is modular, not a requirement per se but a huge plus and is a solid, high-quality product. I simply see no reason to go higher than 450W at this point.


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

Vadigor said:


> The OCZ 700 is around 80 pounds opposed to the Corsair HX-450 at 65. (117 - 95 USD)
> 
> *Regardless of the price difference*, 700 watt seems like an incredible waste of power. Furthermore the HX-450 is modular, not a requirement per se but a huge plus and is a solid, high-quality product. I simply see no reason to go higher than 450W at this point.




regardless of price difference ? you just removed one of the ultimate considerations when evaluating* performance vs cost * / especially for a budget minded system!

thats alot of power to give away to save $20.00 


no more discussion necessary on this topic; its all been presented.


what other questions do you have ? :wink:


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

BTW; when you say "waste of power" are you aware a power supply only produces what a system call for ? nothing more

if you are running a system that pulls 450 watts from the wall socket of your house; your power supply will process just the power needed to deliver that 450watts

I wont get into the whole efficiency thing ..........


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

Yes I was aware that the PSU only lists the maximum peak output, I probably should have phrased that differently.

I've been checking some more articles about the power supply and done some tinkering with possible watt usage. Assuming an overclock to past 3GHZ, the 4830, up to 4 hard drives, a DVD burner, 4 120mm fans, between 4 and 8 hooked up USB devices and a front bay card loader, peak power usage reaches 400 watts. I'd like to apologise for acting so brash earlier (manly due to a conflict at Uni pushing my buttons) and do see that I'd need a stronger PSU.

I'm still looking at the Corsair modular HX line, even though their 520 watt unit is on the expensive side, around 83 pounds (92EUR, 122USD), it's modular design and 520 watts of *sustained* power should be enough for this build, even with all the listed upgrades in mind. Suggestions?

At that price, it is only slightly more expensive than the OCZ 700, a price range where the Corsair HX520 still holds my favour.


EDIT: Also, can anyone provide an opinion about the post I quoted above, stating that the E5400 and E7400 use an identical architecture with the E5400 being more suitable for this build?


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

I would agree the E5400 can be "pushed" to reach about the same goals as the E7400

however; once these goals are reached, which cpu will have lash marks all over its back ?

in other words, the E5400 will be under much more stress

common and smarter system building IMHO is the use of about 20% overclock ....... now which one is in the lead ?


as for power supplies; we are now into the realm of personal taste. I for one discount any modular power supply when the word "budget" is used

modular is a term equal with luxury ............

I have built untold numbers of systems and dont see the value really to a modular PSU ...even though the onecurrently in my system is a modular unit [but its getting replaced with a Corsair 850 soon]

when I build systems I always reserve the very top 5.25 drive bay to tuck away the uneeded wires on a non modular power supply ........... [top mounted psu case of course]

bottom mounted cases I tuck the wires away on the floor of the case; in either situation the uneeded wires are tidy and not restricting air flow ?

the HX 520 and HX620 are premium class units for sure; the OEM for these units is still Seasonic ........... the corsair TX and VX sereis are actually Thermaltake tough power OEM units without the added cost of the modular cabling

not sure if the HX520 has the eight pin cpu power plug ...... you might want to verify that

ohhh well; you are on a better road than previously

enjoy


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

I would be of the opinion that an OCZ 700 watt should be capable of putting out more amps than the HX520 and for less money ?

especially seeing as how you will need to overclock agressively with either one of those cpu's

and one year from now you will be lookign for more video card horsepower; dont think a power supply upgrade at that time will be very palatable


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

As I've said before, I don't intend to upgrade this build in the foreseeable future.

I do see your point about the modular issue, but it's mainly a matter of convenience for me. Hell, I don't need a $120 case, but I can justify it since it looks great, is of good build quality, extremely spacious and convenient.

What I'm having more trouble justifiying at the moment is a modular power supply. The OCZ 700 does indeed seem like the better choice at the moment. Cable clutter should definitely not be an issue with either, as I can just tuck unused cables away since the Akasa Omega case is big enough to have space to the sides of the PSU. I have never heard of the OCZ brand before though, although I've read that, like Corsair, they originally manufactured memory. I've read great things about Corsair's products, and the company they contract them too, Seasonic.

Right now, I have yet to reach any form of consensus on the E5400 vs E7400 debate or on my power supply, I'll need to crunch the numbers some more to see which ones will ultimately hold my favour.


A more relevant question however is the issue of a front bay Multimedia Card Reader. Are there any specific brands I should look out for or avoid? The one that's currently installed in this PC has the annoying tendency to malfunction if I hotswap the cards too fast, is this a common problem?

Also, linderman, I've read in your signature that you advise against flashing the bios from within Windows, I assume you mean these utilities that run from within a live OS. Do you think I should consider getting a floppy drive for that (or any other) purpose? The medium has been pretty much dead for a long time now, but I might be tempted to get one just for nostalgia's sake.


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

I've been able to track down almost all of the components in British stores, although I'm still waiting on a reply from one of them on whether they ship across the Channel. The only thing I couldn't find was the GSkill memory, of which they have only a more expensive 2GB kit or a slightly slower kit, the GSkill PQ PC2 8000: http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_5291.html which seems to match this on GSkill's website which has complete specs: http://newgskill.web-bi.net/bbs/vie...&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=105

The only differences seem to be a 66mhz drop in clock and a PC2 of 8000 as opposed to 8500. On the upside, the colour matches my mobo better. ;D Do you think this is an acceptable substitute?

Also, I would appreciate any advice anyone might give on the questions I raised in my last post. :3


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

That will work, it may run at 800 and need tweaking to get the speed set to 1000.


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

I've found all the components in one store now, even the right RAM. The only problem is that they don't carry the Akasa Omega case, but I'm working on getting that sorted out.


The only two gripes that remain for me are whether the HX520 will be (more than) sufficient for this build with 4 installed fans and 3 harddrives, and if I should downgrade to the E5400 after all (no UK stores carried it, but I found it locally for 90EUR). Will this significantly impact system performance at stock speeds, and can overclocking pull these two closer together? I'd appreciate it if someone could answer these final issues of mine :3


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

top end over clocking requires one hellva muscular power supply or an oversized one; take your pick

input your numbers (especially the overclocking / voltage section) and you will soon see; overclocking the E5400 to equal the E7400 will take some serious capable power supply. use the thermaltake outervison power supply calculator


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

http://www.thermaltake.outervision.com/


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

some times this stuff kinda reminds me of the story about pulling the thorn from the lions paw.


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## Vadigor (Apr 19, 2009)

My final build:

Motherboard: Gigabyte EP45-UD3L Intel P45 Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?GIG-P4UD3L
111.08 EUR
145.09 USD (98.89 GBP)

Processor: Intel Pentium Dual-core Processor E5400 2.7 Ghz 800mhz Fsb 2mb L2 Cache Lga 775
http://www.exell.be/C2S_Products/C2S_ProdDetailsL10.ASP?ref=27305317
92.61 EUR
121.04 USD
(E7400, 153.90USD, 117.75EUR, http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?IL-E7400)

RAM: G.Skill PK 4GB (2x2GB) DDR2 PC2-8500C5 1066MHz Dual Channel Kit
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?GSK-8500
56.75 EUR
74.16 USD (50.59 GBP)

Video Card: XFX ATI Radeon HD 4830 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI (PCI-Express)
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?XFX-4830
87.74 EUR
114.61 USD (78.19 GBP)

Hard Drive: Western Digital Caviar Black 640GB 32Mb Cache Hard Disk Drive SATAII 300MB/s <8.9ms 7200rpm - OEM
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?WD-6401AA
69.65 EUR
91.01 USD (62.09 GBP)

Power Supply: Corsair HX 520W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant Power Supply
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?CSR-HX520
96.75 EUR
126.51 USD (86.24 GBP)

Total: 514.58 EUR
672.92 USD (460.21 GBP)

Excluding: Case, CPU Cooler, Thermal Compound, Case Fans, DVD Burner, Internal Card Reader

If I decide to start overclocking, additional components will be a CPU Cooler (possibly a Zalman one), Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound and additional case fans. I'll likely get a DVD burner and card reader from a local store.


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