# Adding a Valve



## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

My building has 3 floors. 2 tenants share the top level, 3rd tenant shares half of the basement floor and then my house (landlord) has the full second floor and wtv is left on the basement floor.

Therefore as u see in the video, the water from the city comes from the ground and passes through my part of the basement (where u can see the main) before it goes up and then divides to all 3 tenants.

I know that it is possible to give each tenant their own shut off valve by adding it wherever the line enters their home but would it be possjble to add a shut off for my house only (with this setup) to make it so that when required, i can turn off water to only my house (2nd level and half of basement) as opposed to using the main gate valve that turns off the entire building

My plumber told me that the only way to do this would be to break the ceiling where that main line rises into and find which line is mine that breaks off from the other 3 tenants' and thn stick a valve on that line.. But that would mean having my valve somewhere in the ceiling, depending how far the branch off is

Adding a Valve - YouTube


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Explain again what "wtv" means/stand for.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Wtv = whatever 

Google is your friend! 

Haha i kid, just alwas wanted to say that

Thanks for your help


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

Some narration in the video would help. Drawing it out would help people visualize it even better. You can cut in a valve wherever you need it. 

The broken bonding clamp with the wire attached needs to be repaired. That's an important part of your electrical system.


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## Gadsden (Mar 10, 2012)

Basementgeek said:


> Explain again what "wtv" means/stand for.
> 
> BG



I had no idea what it meant either. Having to google abbreviations make for tough reading.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> I had no idea what it meant either. Having to google abbreviations make for tough reading.


Sorry about that, both of you. Didn't think it would be that troublesome. I have to decipher abbreviations from many of your posts all the time all the time, especially when it comes to construction terms. 



> The broken bonding clamp with the wire attached needs to be repaired. That's an important part of your electrical system.


when we had our new electrical panels installed last year, the electrician went to fix something on that ground piece that's attached to the piping. I'll be quick to bring it up to my electrician. Good eye!

I'll try this again:

Adding a Valve (Part 2) - YouTube​


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I was re-installing my hoses for this spring today and when I went to turn on one of the shutoff valves for one of the hoses, it began leaking at the soldering point between the valve and the water line. Now, I know that this may only mean that the soldering needs to be corrected and that the valve may still work, but since this valve head/handle has been broken for quite a few years (I shut it off and on twice a year for winter and spring with pliers), I figured I would replace it anyways.

I was thinking of going with a ball valve with these types of handles. I find them so convenient.










Onto my question...

This is my valve that's leaking:










It's leaking at the yellow illustaryion. If I turn the valve off (block the water from passing through the valve), it stops leaking. When I open the valve, it starts leaking again. 


Don't mind the mess since it's located in the cold room beside the electrical panel.
On the right side of the valve, there's a tiny dial perpendicular to where the main handle would be. None of my other valves have this. What is its purpose?

Edit: The water comes in from the bottom and then rises.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

It is known as a 'waste' for draining the water line on the controlled side.

What Is A Stop & Waste Valve?


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Ah that makes sense. SABL, since the valve's handle broke off, I'm replacing it. But if the handle were still there and the valve were still functional, would you have said that the valve needs to be replaced to fix the leak, or could you just fix the leak by re-soldering (if that's possible)?


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

I would not try to re-soldering it. It is in too bad of shape 

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Yeah ill just replace it. Is the handle style ball valve a good choice?


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

To me that handle valve is for natural gas, not water. Having the little waste opening is nice as the line should be drained for cold weather.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Which style is used for a hose? I know this is personal preference but still...


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

That style valve has been around for a long time.....I've seen it in many commercial applications for water lines. I have the same valves in my house.....which is 25yrs old. Handle parallel with the line is 'open'....you don't need to look too close to see if the water is on or off. A valve is a valve regardless of whether it's for liquid or gas.....it should not leak.....period.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I was just asking because BG has had a different experience with it:



> To me that handle valve is for natural gas, not water.


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

The valve you showed (post #7) is a valve generally used for a gas line as it threaded on both ends.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Sorry, I meant to show that photo just for referencing the handle style. This is the one I want:

Aquadynamic | Ball Valve 1/2 Inch Forged Brass Compression x Compression | Home Depot Canada

But I see that the same model for soldering is 3$ less. Is there a reason? I read that compression fittings are very good but can make leaks if they are installed on pipes that will move because of the temperature change.

Is soldering more secure against leaks than compression?

My valve is in the coldroom, which reaches temperatures of -35C in the winter since it's not insulated (basically outside under balcony). Does this mean I should opt for soldering the new valve as opposed to compressing it?

Edit: 



> ANY movement can cause a compression joint to leak. I would never put one where it was not visible, or even where it would be difficult to replace it some time in the future. So to answer your question, they are not as permanent as solder, or flare for that matter, connections.


Are compression fittings as good as soldering?


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Is it a good rule of thumb to always solder a joint where the room permits while resorting to compression fitting where it is a tight fit?


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Never heard that, but I am not plumber either. 

I have used both but only on a clean / bright copper pipe.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

A plumber will be coming to do change the valve next week. He said he will charge me $50 and will put a new ball-valve with those large handles (soldered). I've seen a lot of videos online of this replacement being done but all of them show the person doing the replacement on a piece of piping that case be pulled toward the new valve once installed. How do you install the valve if you can't move the two copper ends after you cut off the existing pipe? I can't find a video demonstrating this.

This is the same pipe but after I removed the thin wall:


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I hope this isn't what he's going to do, it's so many pieces: 

How to Replace a Water Main Shut Off Valve - YouTube


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Not a hard job, pretty standard thing.

BG


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## oscer1 (Jan 27, 2010)

You would use a slip coupler. That's a coupler that has no stops on it.


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## oscer1 (Jan 27, 2010)

The video shows it. That's what your person should be doing.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

There looks to be plenty of flex available to get a new valve installed.....the bottom section will just be pulled out of the way. I don't know about cutting any pipe.....that will be determined by the length of the new valve. If it's much shorter, the pipe can be cut because new pipe will need to be added. The plumber will desolder the joints and use an outside brush to clean the old solder away while the pipe is hot and the solder still in a fluid state.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Sabl, he said he was going to cut the old valve off, is it better if i ask him
To sweat it off?

EDIT: nvm i think i understand now, if the new valve's body is longer than the existing gate valve he will have no choice to cut some pipe. The only way sweating will work is if the new valve body is smaller or equal to the length of the current valve body, am i getting that tight?

Because naturally id like to have as few unnatural connections


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't think cutting is really needed but I'm not the person doing the job.....I'm only expressing the way I would do the job. If there is enough flex to move the lower pipe out of the way I would never do any cutting. Best I can say is to trust the person you have hired as long as he is a professional. 

BTW....only another opinion. The valve replacement in the video was not done the way I would have done it.......but again, I was not the one doing the job. When using the slide connections IMO it is better to work from either the center or outside pipes. Sliding the connections on the inside or outside pipes allow for maximum pipe length. Notice how the person worked one outside and one inside connection......the pipes were not as long as they could have been and he only got 1/2 of a joint. What I call the outside is the existing pipes and the slide connections should have been placed on those pipes and slid completely out of the way to allow the new valve and smaller pieces of pipe to be placed between them.....maximum length and max joint surface.

EDIT:

Can be done either way.....as long as the slide connections can be slid completely out of the way to allow max pipe length.


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

I would have fixed it by rebuilding the old valve in place. No soldering needed.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

BG, what do you mean by rebuilding?


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Replacing the washer and the packing.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

The washer is fine, its the soldered joint that leaks. Bit i figured why go through that trouble.. Ill just put a ball vàlve


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

OK, up to you as you are the owner.I have a couple that I know will drip a little if I turn them off. I never turn them off.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Well this is the shut off for the outdoor spicket which needs to be used seasonally


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

The plumber passed by while I was at school this morning (sis let him in). I guess he decided to put a compression fitting. The valve I'm holding in my hand is the valve I'd bought to supply him incase he was going to charge me more for the parts but he kept his 50$ figure for the entire job including parts and labour.

I noticed that he used a hacksaw to cut the pipe (crooked cut) since his cutter didn't fit behind the pipe. Also, it's shame the new valve doesn't have a stop.


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## oscer1 (Jan 27, 2010)

looking at the pictures it does have stops on it. i have not seen a ball valve that not had them.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

sorry i meant a waste, not a stop.. like the old valve he removed (where im holding from).. i dont see a waste on the new valve


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## oscer1 (Jan 27, 2010)

with out the waste on it you won't be able to drain out the line. so if its for an outside spicket it could freeze and split the pipe if water is not drained. did you ever drain that line before winter?


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Yes, it's for an outdoor hose. With the old valve, I never even used the waste. I would simply turn on the hose all the way outside, then come inside and turn off the water inside and let the remaining water drain outside. We've done this for 10 years and never had a burst pipe. I guess it's because there isn't much water left in that portion of the pipe to burst it when and if it freezes.


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## oscer1 (Jan 27, 2010)

then i would say you dont need to worry about it having a waste on it then.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Perfect. Thanks again oscer.


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## oscer1 (Jan 27, 2010)

Your welcome


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

You have no idea how it was cut as you were not home. I doubt it was a hacksaw, not enough room.

Got to say who ever soldered in the first valve was not a plumber. Good plumbers don't burn wood.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Bg, look at the saw grooves on the wood and also with the old valve in my hand, its crooked as hell.

Across several jobs in this house ive seen those burn marks across a lot of the wood behind plumbing. Keep in mind this house was built 40y ago so they probly didnt care the way they did stuff then. After all, once the wall is up thrull never know until they tear it down


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Looks like the plumber _chewed_ the old valve off......:laugh:. Compression was the way to go......didn't have to drain the whole system. You can't sweat copper if there is any water present.

Waste is not needed in this case.......except to allow air in to back-drain the outside lines. When getting ready for winter, shut the valve off, open the spigot that's below the valve, and open the outside faucets. Once the water has drained turn the outside faucets back off. All I do for winter is remove any hoses that are connected.......I have 'frost proof' bibs and the valve is well inside the walls.

I know many plumbers and have seen quite a few scorched studs/joists. Sometimes you hear about buildings catching on fire due to a plumber. I am not a plumber......I'm a carpenter and don't like to see scorched wood. I use a piece of sheet metal to protect any wood near a sweat joint. One house I did was 80 years old and the wood very dry.......I'm proud to say that I did not set the place on fire even though many joints were right against wood framing.....:thumb:


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> Looks like the plumber chewed the old valve off....... Compression was the way to go......didn't have to drain the whole system. You can't sweat copper if there is any water present.


There wasn't any water present. The day he came to look at the issue he asked to show him the main and I did. I'm guessing he needed it to turn off the main water so he can cut the old valve off without water spraying everywhere.



> open the spigot that's below the valve


That's very smart, so that the remaining water that wasn't drained outside will get drained downwards inside. Thanks SABL, never thought of of that.

Because the water comes in from the right and then goes upwards and then over the room towards the outside spigot:







The blue spigot you see in the photo is not the outside spigot I'm talking about. That's just another one in the coldroom we don't use.

How can I tell if a hose bib is frost proof?

And yes, about the burns.. That's one thing that bothers me too. But what you gonna do.. the house was already built lol


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Even though the main is shut off does not mean that water isn't in the system......it's just not under pressure. The smallest amount of back-drain will prevent you from soldering a joint......it only takes a few drops of water.



> Because the water comes in from the right and then goes upwards and then over the room towards the outside spigot


Forget opening the blue tap......I thought the supply was from above!! DON'T DO IT!! The new valve should have had a waste.....unless there is another valve further upstream on the supply side which will allow opening the blue one.

Frost proof bib will have a longer body, and stem, to put the valve further inside where there is less chance of freezing. Disregard the anti-syphon that is shown......you probably won't have that.










I've got scorch marks in my house.......I didn't do the plumbing. No big deal unless the plumber would have set my house on fire.....:nono:


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> The new valve should have had a waste.....unless there is another valve further upstream on the supply side which will allow opening the blue one.


And by upstream you mean more towards the right, where the water comes from? In that case, no, there isn't another valve in that direction.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Upstream will be the supply side of the system. I thought the supply was coming from above and I was completely wrong. If you've never had to open the waste when prepping for winter you may be safe.....the waste was there for a reason to add a little insurance against the hose bibs from freezing. Had I been doing the job I would have installed a valve with waste....but that may have been a waste.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Ok so i think ill be fine


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