# Upgraded to windows 10, now taking a LONG time to start



## PC person

You can see it go through all the errors here. It takes almost half an hour, but maybe you don't need to watch it all, just enough to get an idea of what is happening. I was just trying to be thorough.


----------



## spunk.funk

A *startup repair* takes time. What happens after it finishes the startup repair? Does it run well? Did you restart it after you used it for a while to see if it loads right away?


----------



## PC person

> spunk.funk said:
> 
> 
> 
> A *startup repair* takes time. What happens after it finishes the startup repair?
> 
> 
> 
> Windows 10 starts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does it run well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well enough, some lag, but the same as I got with Windows 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you restart it after you used it for a while to see if it loads right away?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This whole process, give or take 10-20 minutes, in the video starts every time I cold boot my computer. In this case (unless I don't know the term correctly) meaning after I shut the computer down completely, using the shut down option in Windows 10.
Click to expand...


----------



## jenae

Hi, could be any number of reasons, first if you have fast start active turn it off.

Next open Msconfig and go to the "boot" tab put a check in "boot log" when you start, a boot log is produced to see this go to c:\windows\ntblog.txt (opens in notepad)

You can also see what is happening at boot , open a cmd prompt as admin and run this cmd:-

reg add "HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System" /V VerboseStatus /t REG_DWORD /d 1 /f

To revert this change the 1 to 0


----------



## PC person

I wonder how long I have to go back to Windows 7. I know you don't want to do that because there are not more updates being made for it. 

But, if I could go back, I'd have more time to go back again if I upgrade to Windows 10, it would reset/give me more time

Someone who helped fix my USB port on my laptop (not my desktop, that this is the problem on in this thread) with a remote session is saying I should run windows 10 one memory stick at a time (I have 6 in right now, totalling 48GB) and see if these problems still happen when I boot, with each. Wasn't sure if he was right, that we should follow what the errors the BSOD's give me when I boot up, they might not mean memory errors.

I did a test with memtest for 11 hours on all 6 sticks and I didn't get any errors, though I have in the past got memory management BSOD's when I was running windows 7 with these same memory sticks in.


----------



## spunk.funk

You have 10 days https://www.dell.com/support/articl...pgrade-to-a-previous-operating-system?lang=en


----------



## PC person

> Hi, could be any number of reasons, first if you have fast start active turn it off.


I don't have the power options app in windows 10 to be able to even see if it's on or off, and it says my system can't run it when I try to open it with search/run.



> Next open Msconfig and go to the "boot" tab put a check in "boot log" when you start, a boot log is produced to see this go to c:\windows\ntblog.txt (opens in notepad)


I've attached it, but this time I had an easy bootup, not sure it will show you any of the problems in the video. I'm sure that bootup is temporary and I will get it again, just didn't today. I'll have to wait until a slow error-prone one happens.



> You can also see what is happening at boot , open a cmd prompt as admin and run this cmd:-
> 
> reg add "HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System" /V VerboseStatus /t REG_DWORD /d 1 /f
> 
> To revert this change the 1 to 0


Am I adding something to the registry? Is that what you mean by reg add.


----------



## Corday

PC person said:


> I don't have the power options app in windows 10 to be able to even see if it's on or off, and it says my system can't run it when I try to open it with search/run.
> 
> Choose what the Power Button Does.


----------



## Stancestans

See https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/4189-turn-off-fast-startup-windows-10-a.html


----------



## PC person

Stancestans said:


> See https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/4189-turn-off-fast-startup-windows-10-a.html


Ok, fast startup is off now.

This time I had a harder time starting up, and here is the new startup log, looks like it doesn't separate each individual startup you do, though. Or maybe you have to delete the log for it record a new one, I'm not sure.

I see a lot of drivers didn't load.


----------



## PC person

Turning off fast startup didn't really make any difference starting it up


----------



## Corday

Remove Emisoft and use built in Windows Defender.


----------



## jenae

Hi, yes use only windows defender it is all a home user needs. Uninstall Acronis (you can reinstall it later) Go to your MB manufacturers web site and download the latest chipset drivers for your machine.

Perform a clean boot:-

https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/help/929135/how-to-perform-a-clean-boot-in-windows


----------



## PC person

> jenae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, yes use only windows defender it is all a home user needs.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been told you can use every anti-malware on the planet and still have malware, though someone told me once hitman has never failed them. Why do you think Windows defender is all you need for ALL your malware? Haven't you ever found some malware with another anti-malware that WD did NOT detect?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go to your MB manufacturers web site and download the latest chipset drivers for your machine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I already have the most up to date ones, no newer ones are being made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perform a clean boot:-
> 
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/help/929135/how-to-perform-a-clean-boot-in-windows
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, I will try this
Click to expand...


----------



## spunk.funk

You cannot have more the 1 Anti-Virus software on your computer or they will conflict. 
Windows Security (Defender) is a part of Windows, they have made great improvements on it and it works flawlessly in Windows and is updated in Windows Update. 
If you install any other AV software (ie) Norton, McAfee, Avast etc, it will disable Windows Defender, because they conflict. All other AV programs have a big foot print and give false positives and block downloads on certain web pages. 
That is not to say that you shouldn't have other Malware removal tools. the Free versions of ADWCleaner, and Malwarebytes or Hitman Pro are great to have in your toolbox. As long as you don't use their Premium versions and have them load at startup, they work in tandem with Windows Security to keep you very safe.


----------



## Sally78

Free upgrade to Windows 10?


----------



## spunk.funk

Yes, Windows 10 Upgrade is still free https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10


----------



## PC person

Ok, I uninstalled Emsisoft and Acronis and did the clean boot of Windows 10. the Clean boot booted a lot easier than any other reboot, only took about 3-4 minutes

But, should we try a cold boot, from when the computer is completely shut down, for comparison? How do you know the two won't be different in thier results of starting up?


----------



## Stancestans

Sure, do the cold boot.


----------



## PC person

Stancestans said:


> Sure, do the cold boot.


Hope I'm using that term correctly, What I mean is my computer is shut down, but it is connected to a power outlet, there is still some power, a few lights on, etc. 

If cold boot means starting it from totally having no power- such as when I unplug it, press down the power switch to draiin the power, then plug it back in and press the power button, then it's not a cold boot.


----------



## spunk.funk

_Cold Boot_= Computer is totally _shut down_, not restarted, Sleep or Hibernation. No fans or lights should be on, except the link light on the Ethernet cable. Start the computer from this state as if it has never been turned on.


----------



## PC person

Turned my computer on from being off twice. Both times it booted into windows in a bout 8 minutes, still seems somewhat slow


----------



## spunk.funk

Make sure *Clean Boot* steps are still enabled. 
Also, download *HDTune*, not Pro from my signature. Go to the *Error Scan* tab, do a full *Error Scan*, not quick. This will take some time. At the end of this scan, If all of the boxes are *Green*, the HDD/SSD is Healthy. If any of the boxes are *RED*, Then there is no reason to complete the test. The Drive needs to be replaced.


----------



## PC person

> spunk.funk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Make sure *Clean Boot* steps are still enabled.
> 
> 
> 
> They are, I get no error messages booting now but it always takes 8-9 minutes
> 
> Also, download *HDTune*, not Pro from my signature. Go to the *Error Scan* tab, do a full *Error Scan*, not quick. This will take some time. At the end of this scan, If all of the boxes are *Green*, the HDD/SSD is Healthy. If any of the boxes are *RED*, Then there is no reason to complete the test. The Drive needs to be replaced.
Click to expand...

Yes, the clean boot steps are still enabled. I don't getany error messages starting up now, just takes 9 minutes. You don't have a signature, but is this it, no newer version? 

https://www.hdtune.com/download.html


----------



## xrobwx71

PC person said:


> Yes, the clean boot steps are still enabled. I don't getany error messages starting up now, just takes 9 minutes. You don't have a signature, but is this it, no newer version?
> 
> https://www.hdtune.com/download.html


Yes, that's it. Get the one that's free for personal use.


----------



## Rich-M

Windows 10 can still be installed free with a Windows 7 code so why screw around with update process that failed in almost every case anyway? Upgrading Windows 7 to Windows 10 just brings forward some incompatible process and tries to meld it into the system but it never will. I cannot remember any free upgrade to Windows 10 that ever ran right so why not just do a clean install here using the Media Creator Disk with your Windows 7 COA? Choose the second option make an iso disk or use usb flash drive:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10


----------



## PC person

The free version of HDTune doesn't have it listed that it's for Windows 10, but do I have to boot from a disk/USB stick that has it on it- guessing not- if that's the case why does it even mention the OS if it's not involved?


----------



## PC person

Rich-M said:


> Windows 10 can still be installed free with a Windows 7 code so why screw around with update process that failed in almost every case anyway? Upgrading Windows 7 to Windows 10 just brings forward some incompatible process and tries to meld it into the system but it never will. I cannot remember any free upgrade to Windows 10 that ever ran right so why not just do a clean install here using the Media Creator Disk with your Windows 7 COA? Choose the second option make an iso disk or use usb flash drive:
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10


You mean, as if I installed Windows 10 on an OS with no OS on it in the first place? Only thing thing with that is I'd need to reinstall everything, which is thing I try to avoid like the plague, I hate when I have to do that.


----------



## spunk.funk

the free version of HDTune is for Windows 10 and all previous versions. If you have a version of HDTune that works then run the *Error Scan*. If the drive is healthy,(ie) All Green Boxes,
then, as Rich-M suggested, you can Upgrade to Windows 10 directly from the link Rich provided while keeping your programs and files.
Or you can choose to use the* Media Creation Tool* on that same page and burn it to a USB Flash Drive. Then, with that in your computer while in Windows, choose to _Upgrade keeping your files. _


----------



## Rich-M

PC person said:


> You mean, as if I installed Windows 10 on an OS with no OS on it in the first place? Only thing thing with that is I'd need to reinstall everything, which is thing I try to avoid like the plague, I hate when I have to do that.


Your choice but upgrades never work right and all the time you have wasted trying to make it work right had you put that into reinstalling programs and doing a clean install you would have been done a week ago.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> the free version of HDTune is for Windows 10 and all previous versions. If you have a version of HDTune that works then run the *Error Scan*. If the drive is healthy,(ie) All Green Boxes,
> then, as Rich-M suggested, you can Upgrade to Windows 10 directly from the link Rich provided while keeping your programs and files.
> Or you can choose to use the* Media Creation Tool* on that same page and burn it to a USB Flash Drive. Then, with that in your computer while in Windows, choose to _Upgrade keeping your files. _


But I've already upgraded to windows 10. Can't upgrade if I already have, unless you mean in some other way. He's saying in his post before this one I will have to reinstall everything.


----------



## britechguy

Doing a Windows 10 Repair Install or Feature Update Using the Windows 10 ISO file

One of the beauties of Windows 10 is the repair install, which differs from a feature update only in that you use the same version's ISO that you already have. And you can choose to keep all existing apps and files.

If you upgraded to version 1909, then you're going to have to do a feature update to Version 2004 at this point. If there are problems after that then do the repair install on Version 2004, but I'd be willing to bet the feature update itself has the potential to fix whatever is going on.

It's not common, but it's not unheard of, either, for an upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10 to have issues, particularly if the condition of the Windows 7 on which the upgrade was done was not meticulous to begin with. Doing a repair install tends to "blow out the cobwebs" when that's the case.


----------



## britechguy

Rich-M said:


> Your choice but upgrades never work right . . .


We're going to have to disagree on that assertion. I can't count the number of Windows 7 or 8.1 to Windows 10 in-place upgrades I've done and I think I've had issues with, perhaps, two of those.

And the repair install I just mentioned fixed those two.

I've also found myself Doing a Completely Clean (Re)install of Windows 10 Using Media Creation Tool to Create Bootable Win10 Install Media on a USB Thumb Drive on a couple of occasions, but not because of a failed in-place upgrade.


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> Only thing thing with that is I'd need to reinstall everything, which is thing I try to avoid like the plague, I hate when I have to do that.


We all try to avoid that, but sometimes it's the only sure way to get things working right and is worthwhile in the long run. You get to start fresh, with secure and up-to-date recovery points (backups) compared to clinging onto crippled system images. 

While you're waiting for your system to boot in 9 minutes, and crossing your fingers that it keeps running right afterwards, mine is up and ready for use in 8 seconds from a cold boot! All we can do is offer advice; taking it is entirely up to you.


----------



## Rich-M

Like stancestans my two desktops and laptop are up under 10 seconds every time. You have wasted more time procrastinating and waiting and wondering about whether or not you will have issues than if you had done a clean install in the first place.


----------



## Rich-M

britechguy said:


> We're going to have to disagree on that assertion. I can't count the number of Windows 7 or 8.1 to Windows 10 in-place upgrades I've done and I think I've had issues with, perhaps, two of those.
> 
> And the repair install I just mentioned fixed those two.
> 
> I've also found myself Doing a Completely Clean (Re)install of Windows 10 Using Media Creation Tool to Create Bootable Win10 Install Media on a USB Thumb Drive on a couple of occasions, but not because of a failed in-place upgrade.


I don't doubt what you are saying I just question the reasoning. I have not run across an updated Windows 7 or 8 version recently but in the years when I did, it took me less time to copy out the files and data and clean install Windows than to troubleshoot the many issues which as I remember were always impossible slow boots and networking issues, than to run a repair process which I remember as endless and fixing nothing for me. If that process has improved today, that's wonderful but as I remember it takes 10 times as long as a clean install with Media Creator alone. When I build a system it takes me about 15 minutes to populate the tower, 10 minutes to install Windows 10 and maybe 30 minutes to install basic programs. Now this is for stock units so no files are included but it seems to me that is the same time as repair used to take though this way it is clean and new with no issues. What I don't get is why. I remember when all the free updates were being offered I encountered some of the most screwed up units I had ever seen and I don't remember being able to save any of them. Before the MC was available I do remember starting from scratch installing Windows 7 then updating the OS without issue to Windows 10 because those units had nothing else on them and being successful but look at the time difference to installing 2 OS vs clean install of Windows 10 with newest version so no updates had to be done. The Updates for 7 before doing 10 took on 1 pc took more time than installing Windows 10 clean on 20 pcs. The Media Creator disk has revolutionized the whole process and saved so much time I would never even imagine a reason to use repair on an upgraded system that didn't run properly. But again this is my opinion pure and simple.


----------



## Corday

I'm on an 11 year old laptop (not my go to computer). Done the clean install 4 times on it. Wife uses it on trips (separate account). If you want to make it easier, write down the programs you want to use and everything else should be on a portable backup.


----------



## Stancestans

Rich-M said:


> Before the MC was available I do remember starting from scratch installing Windows 7 then updating the OS without issue to Windows 10 because those units had nothing else on them and being successful but look at the time difference to installing 2 OS vs clean install of Windows 10 with newest version so no updates had to be done.


Yeah, a lot of folks did in-place upgrades from clean Win 7 installs during the free offer just to secure/reserve their digital entitlement license, before clean installing Win 10. Support for Win 10 activation using Win 7/8 keys had not been added yet. Fun times they were, not!


----------



## Rich-M

Quite true Stan!


----------



## britechguy

Rich-M said:


> When I build a system it takes me about 15 minutes to populate the tower, 10 minutes to install Windows 10 and maybe 30 minutes to install basic programs. Now this is for stock units so no files are included


And in the circumstance you describe I wouldn't be doing anything other than what you propose. But that's not what we've been presented with here.

I can, and do (personally), understand why someone with a Windows 7 or 8.1 system that has years of user files and lots of installed software for which media and/or keys may be long ago missing does not want to even think about starting from scratch again. I certainly didn't.

I never go the route of a completely clean reinstall of Windows 10 right after an in-place upgrade that proves to be problematic if the circumstance is as I've described above. A repair install is quick and easy (and really quick if an SSD is in use, slower if an HDD) and well worth trying in order to prevent the need for a nuke and pave. I've yet to have it not prevent the need for a nuke and pave, for which I, and my clients, have been eternally grateful.


----------



## PC person

Think I may try the repair install first. I have done a clean install for viruses and malware, not for an upgrade from one Windows type to another though, think I'll see how the repair install works.


----------



## britechguy

Stancestans said:


> Yeah, a lot of folks did in-place upgrades from clean Win 7 installs during the free offer just to secure/reserve their digital entitlement license, before clean installing Win 10. Support for Win 10 activation uing Win 7/8 keys had not been added yet. Fun times they were, not!


And who ever would have guessed that "the free offer" would never end?

You can still do a free in-place upgrade from Windows 7 or 8.1 to Windows 10, without any need to present a license key.

And the fact that Microsoft is now (and still) accepting Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 license keys to activate fresh Windows 10 installs (provided those keys had not yet been activated for the original version) suggests to me that this is going to be the situation going forward, without any end.


----------



## PC person

So, yes I will be doing to repair install, but ordered a set of USB flash drives that will be coming, will take a few days, before my next post.


----------



## britechguy

PC person said:


> So, yes I will be doing to repair install, but ordered a set of USB flash drives that will be coming, will take a few days, before my next post.


Just so it's completely clear, you do not need USB media to do a repair install, though you can kick one off from USB.

If the machine boots, it makes more sense to download the ISO file (whether on that machine or another - and copy it to the drive on the "hobbled" machine), mount the ISO as a virtual DVD drive, and fire up setup.exe that way.


----------



## spunk.funk

As stated, If you can boot into Windows 10 and have internet access, then go to the Microsoft page, You can Upgrade here, or you can choose to use the *Media Creation Tool.* Here you have the choice of burning it to a DVD or USB Flash drive *OR* you can download the ISO image to your computer. Once downloaded, you can right click the ISO image and choose *Mount*m which creates a virtual DVD drive, Then right click *Setup.exe* and choose* Run As Administrator*, and Upgrade, choosing to *keep your files*, without having to burn to a disc or USB.


----------



## PC person

The USB drives will be coming sometime today. I'm still not sure if I need multiple USB drives if I want several programs to be bootable on the same USB drive, such as memtest, seatools, prime 95, hdtune (was looking for an iso of that)

I'm trying to use Yumi, which can put multiple ISO's the same flash drive with a menu to select the one you want to use, but it presents you with a list of isos, not sure if it can ONLY burn those ISO to a flash drive, for memtest86+ it didn't come with an don't have an ISO, but a zip file.

Before I do this repair install, is there anything that can go seriously wrong during it, possibly making it unbootable. Just if there is I always like to have some kind of backup, I can back to if it does. If it's safe to do, I'll have done it by my next post.


----------



## spunk.funk

This thread is old but the Rescue Boot USB is fresh. It has many of the programs you referred to already built in and it shows you how to add your own favorites. https://www.tenforums.com/software-apps/27180-windows-10-recovery-tools-bootable-rescue-disk.html


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> Before I do this repair install, is there anything that can go seriously wrong during it, possibly making it unbootable. Just if there is I always like to have some kind of backup, I can back to if it does. If it's safe to do, I'll have done it by my next post.


This need not be a question. Things can and will go wrong just because they can (there's always that possibility). You're losing nothing by taking a backup, so just take it.


----------



## Rich-M

Before installing a new program or initiating any major change I always make an image file which is a copy of exactly what is on the Os programs and files. Using Acronis (there are free versions available with certain hard drives) or Macrium Reflect which has a full version with all features free or EaseUs Todo Backup or aomei backupper which is also free. Any of these can be used and you can restore your image file which will taske you back to right where you were before the change or in this case "repair".


----------



## PC person

Using Acronis is what I would have done, and made an image on an external hard drive, so if I can't get into the main C drive on my PC, I can boot with a USB flash drive and choose to use that backup, but I've been told in this thread to uninstall it.


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> Using Acronis is what I would have done, and made an image on an external hard drive, so if I can't get into the main C drive on my PC, I can boot with a USB flash drive and choose to use that backup, but I've been told in this thread to uninstall it.


Acronis isn't the only backup software you could use. Rich-M's previous reply literally gives you alternatives. You could also just reinstall Acronis since you're already familiar with it.


----------



## kntowrry

Hi Everyone, Great post.
My win 10 system starting choking on startup real bad, 3 min 37 seconds to the logon screen. The real strange thing also was i heard things loading up behind the logon screen, something was sorely wrong.
I updated and rolled back when that failed the Nividia driver. I uninstalled multiple apps and was wondering like the OP should I just reinstall. I read about the boot log though and duh! So i set that up rebooted in Safe mode was a bit quicker but it doesn't load as many drivers. Looked at the boot log and it seemed it kept looping on 
BOOTLOG_NOT_LOADED @OEM5.inf,%nvidia_dev.1380%;NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750 Ti
BOOTLOG_NOT_LOADED @msports.inf,%*pnp0500.devicedesc%;Communications Port and then some driver processor for about 10 times then it would loop again for 116 times then it continued the boot. 
Hearing the things load up behind the logon screen I was thinking it might be video lagging, hummm. Then when I booted up in Fallout 76 it was doing the same thing. As the game booted up I heard the normal sounds as if I was already in the game. I was looking at a new card. 
My old tech savvy though said wait there is also a communications port looping so I dis-connected all the connected USB devices, drives keyboard, Fitbit charger and even went so far as to use a usb mouse no keyboard and walah!! It booted great again. 
I connected my Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse and that was fine. Grins all around!! 
So, over the weekend I will slowly reconnect my usb devices drives mostly and see what was bringing it down. I found Acronis to be pretty good and my motto is if I think I should backup I do.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> This thread is old but the Rescue Boot USB is fresh. It has many of the programs you referred to already built in and it shows you how to add your own favorites. https://www.tenforums.com/software-apps/27180-windows-10-recovery-tools-bootable-rescue-disk.html


That's kind of separate issue in this thread, but I used rufus to make a flash drive bootable, putting it on the flash drive, then tried to boot with it. It booted into windows 10 saying "Welcome to Windows" since this was different I figured it was what I put on the drive. But, I saw all my icons on the desktop were the same. Not sure why it showed me this.

I figured maybe it didn't boot correctly, so I went to my BIOS and saw the boot order of devices, the USB drive wasn't even an option, even though it is plugged into a USB port, a 3.0 port on the front of my computer.


----------



## PC person

I reinstalled Acronis and will use that to create a backup. Just.......I don't know how long it will take, and I don't want my computer tied up all weekend so it will have to wait until Monday. 

I also recall I was having trouble using (but not creating) the bootable media if Windows won't start with Acronis.


----------



## spunk.funk

Create a bootable USB of Acronis If burning the ISO with Rufus, under *Partition Scheme* choose *GPT/UEFI *. 
If you have a UEFI Bios, the USB will now show in the *Boot *options. 
Boot off the Acronis USB and choose to *Backup*. Create an Image file of the Whole HDD that Windows is on, including all partitions including the Hidden ones. Save the Image to a different drive, like a USB External HDD.


----------



## PC person

I was able to create the backup overnight. Didn't take as long as it told me it would. Told me at 12AM it would take 12 more hours, but it completed it at 2:13AM of my 740GB of 2TB hard drive, but wonder why the whole progress bar wasn't take up, as you can see in the picture


----------



## xrobwx71

That's not a process bar but a data map of what kind of files are placed.


----------



## PC person

> This thread is old but the Rescue Boot USB is fresh. It has many of the programs you referred to already built in and it shows you how to add your own favorites. https://www.tenforums.com/software-a...scue-disk.html


This time I managed to get this to boot. For some reason, even when the bootable USB drive is in a USB port it does not show under EITHER the boot options or the boot overrides. Yes, it shows it in the bios picture I have posted, but it is not always there and I don't know why. Nor is it, as you can see, a boot option I can choose. You can't see boot option one as it is above the picture (I'd have to scroll up/couldn't fit it all in one picture.) 

I tried a few USB ports and sometime it showed it in the BIOS sometimes it didn't. When it did show it as an option I was able to boot into and quite like it, though I'm not sure what a lot of those programs do. Something like memtest I'm guessing couldn't be run from it, because that requires access to all of the RAM, that part of it is being used by the Windows OS being used from the USB drive. I saw that the Acronis TI Version is 2017, and wasn't sure that would work to load the backup I made with Acronis TI 2020 so..............

I went ahead and made a bootable USB rescue drive with a blank 32GB flash drive. It was a rocky road booting with it. As when booting to Windows 10 on my hard drive, I got several errors messages before it successfully loaded. But, I'm grateful it was able to actually load it, that's the most important part. Perhaps, after I've done the repair install I can make another bootable drive that doesn't have the problems the current ones does............now I'm totally set to do the repair install.


----------



## spunk.funk

Is you Bios setup as *UEFI* only or* UEFI/Legacy (CSM)*?
Did you burn the ISO image with* Rufus*? If using Rufus, did you change the _Partition Scheme_ from MBR to *GPT/UEFI*? 
Any programs off the USB Rescue disk you are not familiar with, you can Google it. There is very little RAM used when you boot off of a USB Flash Drive so _Memtest_ can easily be run from the flash drive to test the Memory (RAM). The Acronis version off of that Boot Disk should also be able to access your previous Backup.


----------



## PC person

Ok, I tried the repair installation according to the instruction Brit gave me. Here's what happened, in the pic.

This has some suggestions https://windowsreport.com/installation-failed-safe_os-phase/


----------



## britechguy

And if the things the article recommends don't work, you really need to consider cutting your losses, backing up the user data on that drive, and doing a completely clean reinstall of Windows 10, using the instructions I gave earlier or any of many out there that document the process.

Given the number of difficulties you've been having, and that a repair install fails, that's what I, personally, would already be doing. That "number of difficulties" suggests a system so unstable that getting back to a known functional clean baseline install would set you up for a far more typical update experience moving forward.


----------



## Rich-M

Time to copy your files and data and do a clean install.


----------



## PC person

britechguy said:


> And if the things the article recommends don't work, you really need to consider cutting your losses, backing up the user data on that drive, and doing a completely clean reinstall of Windows 10, using the instructions I gave earlier or any of many out there that document the process.
> 
> Given the number of difficulties you've been having, and that a repair install fails, that's what I, personally, would already be doing. That "number of difficulties" suggests a system so unstable that getting back to a known functional clean baseline install would set you up for a far more typical update experience moving forward.


I'm not even sure a clean install of Windows 10 would do it, if the incompatibilities are hardware based, hardware that existed before Windows 10 did, but if that's what I have to do, I will.

What about the hit-or-miss situations I'm having? Windows will eventually start up, just it will have to restart several times and only have a chance of successfully doing so. Kind of like throwing a golf ball at a chain link fence, it may bounce off backwards, or may go through a hole, eventually with enough tries, like it does it will go through. It's not like there is one error message it just can't get beyond, more like a brick wall in this analogy it can't through no matter what.


----------



## joeten

Hi ok 1 do as advised and do the back up, next you may or may not know that some installs and upgrades can be hampered by things like one drive behaving weirdl, now I am not saying that is the issue but using it as a point, that is you do not at this juncture know nor do we why things have taken this turn however procastinating is not getting you any further forward so a fresh start is far more sensible than going round in circles,you have 2 very experienced techs giving you advice it would normally be to your benefit to follow it, if you decide not to that is your choice and they can and should step away from your issue. They have given you their best advice and that is as much as they can do the rest is in your hands.


----------



## PC person

Ok, I'll do the clean install, just I wonder if there is an easier way rather than installing my programs back one a time. 

I had something called PCmover which let me migrate programs from one computer to another, wonder if there's something that can also do it from a backup. Also Laplink diskimage let me view disc images I would make of my hard drive as hard drives .omg files, but the new version doesn't support that feature anymore, wonder why I thought that was the whole purpose of it.


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> Ok, I'll do the clean install, just I wonder if there is an easier way rather than installing my programs back one a time.
> 
> I had something called PCmover which let me migrate programs from one computer to another, wonder if there's something that can also do it from a backup. Also Laplink diskimage let me view disc images I would make of my hard drive as hard drives .omg files, but the new version doesn't support that feature anymore, wonder why I thought that was the whole purpose of it.


No, there is no easier way. If there was, you would have heard about it by now. Also, a clean install means *starting afresh*. Migrating programs from a crippled backup is NOT starting afresh. *Doing so makes it an unclean installation*. No program should make it back from the backup to the clean installation, period. The only thing you should migrate from the backup are your user files. Everything else gets a start from scratch. If we were not clear enough about a fresh clean install, I hope this makes it clearer once and for all.


----------



## Corday

In addition, migrating software brings stuff you never knew existed and you'll wonder about it when it shows years from now.


----------



## PC person

Ok, sorry, didn't mean to irritate you guys


----------



## britechguy

When one has to do a completely clean install it's also a great opportunity to do "spring cleaning" as well.

If the system that's going to have the clean install done on it still allows you to boot into it, it's worth getting Belarc Advisor or similar and using it to get an inventory of the installed software (and the keys for same for some of them, anyway) that's on that computer.

After the clean install, *only* put back the stuff you know you are going to be using in very short order. The rest can wait, as if you have that list you can always look at it later when you need to. It is often the case that a lot of the stuff you had installed becomes "no longer relevant" over time and you'll never have any reason to install it again.

But there is no way to figure out what's going on given the number of variables already mentioned without having some sort of known baseline to start with.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> Is you Bios setup as *UEFI* only or* UEFI/Legacy (CSM)*?


Says Legacy under System Summary for the Bios mode. And, the BIOS is American Megatrends Inc 4901 5/14/2014. There are no new BIOS versions that my motherboard manufacturer supplies. But, do you HAVE to go with the BIOS of your motherboard manufacturer? I know that usually bios is stored in rom chips, but it can be flashable/updateable.

I'll do what you suggest with Rufus, It can be used to just to put a bootable ISO on a flash drive right? You don't have to do that AND format with it at the same time, right?


----------



## britechguy

Rufus always reformats a drive being set up as bootable and gives you a prominent warning to that effect.

You can choose the option that Rufus gives for CSM, and it says that in the Rufus dropdown shown enclosed in purple here (which happens to have the WRONG choice shown - as it's UEFI non-CSM):


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> But, do you HAVE to go with the BIOS of your motherboard manufacturer?


Yes.



> I'll do what you suggest with Rufus, It can be used to just to put a bootable ISO on a flash drive right? You don't have to do that AND format with it at the same time, right?


Why is formatting the drive a problem?


----------



## spunk.funk

A Bios update is provided by the computer or motherboard manufacturer on their driver download page. You should not try to Flash your Bios with any other Bios Update, other then the one provided by the manufacturer.
As stated, If you Bios is set to *Legacy (CSM)* then in Rufus, change the Partition Scheme to MBR not GPT.


Stancestans said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> Why is formatting the drive a problem?


When you create a bootable Flash Drive the process Erases (Formats) the flash drive before creating the bootable app. So, you don't want to use a Flash drive that has stuff on it your want to keep. It's best to go to the store and buy a fresh new Flash Drive for this process.


----------



## PC person

Just downloaded Belarc Advisor, good program. I used to use Everest too, would be good if there was one combined for hardware and software, or that Belarc would tell you what has changed in your software since that last time you opened it, or Acronis could from the last update.


----------



## xrobwx71

PC person said:


> Just downloaded Belarc Advisor, good program. I used to use Everest too, would be good if there was one combined for hardware and software, or that Belarc would tell you what has changed in your software since that last time you opened it, or Acronis could from the last update.


Maybe this? LastActivityView - View the latest computer activity in Windows operating system


----------



## simmi453

Maybe everyone has a different experience with the upgrade and installation of Windows 10.
About Windows 10 updates.




__





Get the latest Windows update


When the latest Windows update is ready for your device, it will be available to download from the Windows Update page in Settings.




support.microsoft.com




About Windows 10 installation (With Windows 10 bootable disk).




__





Top 11 Windows Password Recovery Tool Reviews in 2022 - Free and Paid


Here are the top 11 Windows password reset tools that recovers your Windows password along with my views on them, which includes their pros and cons.



www.windows10passwordreset.com


----------



## PC person

I think if I start fresh, I will have 2 full backups with 2 chains of incremental upgrades, possibly on two different physical hard drives. I've had it happen before that I couldn't restore an Acronis backup because it was corrupted. The only thing I can do about that, I suppose is have more than one copy of the backup.


----------



## britechguy

If you have your backup software perform an image verification as part of taking the backup (and it happens right after the backup file creation is done) you can be assured it can be restored from PROVIDED you don't do something to corrupt it afterward (e.g. drop the drive, edit it somehow by hand, etc).

You should be taking backups on a regular, cyclic basis [mine are monthly] and, if possible, on two different drives, alternating the drives each month (even month drive and odd month drive). It is as close to impossible as it comes for multiple backups (keep, say the last two) across multiple months stored on multiple drives will all be bad.

These days 4TB external USB 3.0 (and soon, I hope, 3.1) backup HDDs can be had for well under $100 when there are sales. If you don't need that much space to keep multiple backups, lower capacity backup drives can be had for a song these days. Get one or two, and religiously take full system image, and separate user data backups. File History, the Windows 10 built-in utility, is absolutely excellent for maintaining versioned backups of user data files.


----------



## xrobwx71

britechguy said:


> These days 4TB external USB 3.0 (and soon, I hope, 3.1) backup HDDs can be had for well under $100 when there are sales. If you don't need that much space to keep multiple backups, lower capacity backup drives can be had for a song these days. Get one or two, and religiously take full system image, and separate user data backups. File History, the Windows 10 built-in utility, is absolutely excellent for maintaining versioned backups of user data files.


Brian is spot on as always.
This is similar to how I run backups on both of our house paint tint machines at work. The computers that came with them literally have no space or connections for a second internal drive. There is a ton of info regarding specific paint colors for specific customers that can't be lost. I simply bought a SATA SSD and a usb to SATA adapter. It works like a charm. As you know Brian, Macrium is my go-to. Reason? I've never had a problem in years with Macrium.


----------



## PC person

Now I can probably access the omg files with Windows 7 using Hyper-V, just wish laplink could still mount them in WIndows 10, which is why I'll have to use a VM and Hyper-V. Maybe it would be possible to back them up as Ogms AGAIN, or equivalent (basically the whole drive I can view the files of) so that windows 10 can mount and/or view them.


----------



## PC person

I can mount the omg files as drives, if I mount them in hyper-v running Windows 7. I've been able to do it Since I can't mount them anymore as drives even with the new version of laplink disc image running windows 7 what I thought of doing was extracted all the file from the mount drives, into a file folder. There's a problem with that though, occasionally I'll get pop ups saying a file name is too long and it can't do it, or that it's a system file and it can't copy it.

Maybe I can make VHD files from them, which can be opened/explored in windows 10, if I create them from the mount omg files.


----------



## Stancestans

Add a second VHD to the VM and restore the omg image to the VHD. I tested the latest version of Laplink DriveImage on Windows 10 and it mounted omg files just fine. No matter, use the restore option (not manually copying files from the mounted image).


----------



## PC person

Stancestans said:


> Add a second VHD to the VM and restore the omg image to the VHD. I tested the latest version of Laplink DriveImage on Windows 10 and it mounted omg files just fine. No matter, use the restore option (not manually copying files from the mounted image).


Yes, if you created with with the latest version of laplink diskimage you can mount and view the files just fine, but I created them with an earlier version of diskimage running windows 7, those old omgs can not be mounted in Windows 10.


----------



## joeten

Sorry but from a simple stand point your problem is the version of laplink being outdated and that you have control of.


----------



## PC person

joeten said:


> Sorry but from a simple stand point your problem is the version of laplink being outdated and that you have control of.


Why do you think that would work? The files are old and created with another version of Laplink diskimage running windows 7. You think mounting them with the latest version of Laplink diskimage on Windows 10 would work even though they weren't created with that version and OS?


----------



## joeten

Going on the possibilty that a new version may be backward compatible, but do your due dillingence and check it out as to whether the new version is.


----------



## britechguy

Latest LapLink DiskImage User Guide.


----------



## spunk.funk

Numerous posts on the same subject Creating vhd or vhdx in Windows 10 with disk management


----------



## PC person

joeten said:


> Going on the possibilty that a new version may be backward compatible, but do your due dillingence and check it out as to whether the new version is.


Just tried mounting the old omgs I created with laplink disk image 5 with laplink disc image 10 and windows 10, it doesn't work I get an error message.


----------



## Stancestans

Which error message? Specifics help.


----------



## PC person

Above is the message I get when I try to mount the omgs using Laplink 5 In windows 10. Below is what I get when I try to mount the image in Windows 10 Using Laplink 10. I've talked to Laplink and they're currently investigating it/their techs are on it.; They told me I wouldn't be able to mount it in Windows 10 using Laplink 5, but with Laplink 10 it should be working and isn't for some reason.


----------



## spunk.funk

isn't this the same issue? Creating vhd or vhdx in Windows 10 with disk management


----------



## Stancestans

You have other options besides mounting the images. Restore the images to VHDs then retrieve what you need from them. You can also try converting them to VHD using Laplink.


----------



## PC person

Stancestans said:


> You have other options besides mounting the images. Restore the images to VHDs then retrieve what you need from them. You can also try converting them to VHD using Laplink.


This is exactly what I want to/have been trying to do. Mount the images then make VHDs out of them (though didn't know laplink can convert OMG's to VHDs) See this thread

Creating vhd or vhdx in Windows 10 with disk management in post one, I link to the instructions, but I am confused because I don't remember it containing this many steps, all I need was create the VHD/VHDX and mount it with disc management, I don't recall having to do the steps beyond step 8.

To be clear, a VHD/VHDx is an image of the entire hard drive, correct? That's what I'm trying to create and mount since I can't mount the omg files.


----------



## Stancestans

Instead of getting confused by the number of steps in that Windows Central tutorial, why don't you simply follow them? They are detailed, precise and illustrated. It doesn't get any simpler or clearer than that.

Alternatively, since you have a Hyper-v virtual machine running Windows 7 and Laplink 5, add an extra disk (vhd or vhdx) to the virtual machine using the hyper-v manager. This will show up as an extra disk in the Windows 7 vm. Using disk management in the vm, initialize the extra disk, format it then copy the files you need from the mounted omg files to it. See add disk to hyper-v virtual machine - Google Search


----------



## PC person

Ok, hope no one minds that I brought back this thread, I have decided to do a complete reinstall of windows 10, method 1 like Britechguy was saying, just I upgraded to Windows 10 from Windows 7, just hope I don't need a license key


----------



## spunk.funk

If you have finished the Upgrade, go to* Settings/Update and Security/Activation* it will tell you if Windows 10 is _Activated_ or not. It shouldn't need to be. If need to, click _Change Product Key_ ;link and type in your Windows 7 Product key.,


----------



## PC person

I;m trying to do the final steps before the reinstall. The last two things I wanted to do were make a full backup of the hard drive with Acronis, that is done. The very final thing I wanted to do was make a disc image with laplink disc image, mount it and explore it- see if I can see and access all the files.

Unfortunately with that last step, I have tried to do so and ran into problems. I tried to mount the image with laplink, but it blue screen on me, which has happened on two different computers running windows 10- 64 bit professional. With my desktop, it is (was- keep reading ) hit or miss whether it wil successfully start up, though it takes about 15 minutes. It would usually do if I cold booted the machine. I would remove the power plug from the back, drain the rest of the power with the power button, then wait several minutes, then plug it back into the desktop, turn it on and that it would successfully start eventually. But, now it won;t. It will try to start up, take about 15 minutes, then I get the rotating circle of dots with a black screen, and eventually that will stop rotating/the computer freezes. I have tried to cold boot it three times now, all them have ended like I just described.

Since I can't get into windows on my desktop, I am writing this on my laptop, As I mentioned above, I tried to mount the image, it blue screened on the laptop as well. I tried to convert the omg to a vhd file, but I got a message saying it thinks there is some damage to the omg and if I wanted to continue, Since I can't boot up my desktop, I can't make another image. IIRC laplink said the images you can mount are no longer explorable/viewable like a hard drive image, so in that case they'd have to be vhd to be mounted in disk management in order to explore them.

Maybe there still is a way to boot into it to make another image, safe mode? Or booting from a flash drive which in turn could give me access to the main hard drive?


----------



## Stancestans

Why don't you explore the Acronis image and forget about laplink? It's amazing how you insist on using the problematic laplink. Besides, the installation you're wasting time on is clearly hosed. As has been said before, you're better off with just a backup of important data and NOT the crippled OS. As long as you have a copy of your data, go ahead with the clean installation. I don't know what you expect to use a system image of a hosed installation for. It's like saving rotten eggs.


----------



## Rich-M

If you have a full backup with Acronis done then that really is all you need to copy out files and data. With a damaged image file for certain it won't retore to a new drive so you need to make up your mind the best way to do this anyway is install Windows, then install your programs and then transfer your files and data for the best running pc. As Stan suggests Laplink is a flawed program and super expensive waste of time in my opinion also and I am surprised Acronis would even copy it frankly as Acronis usually will not do that on a less than perfect drive.


----------



## PC person

"Why don't you explore the Acronis image and forget about laplink?"

Ok, if I can do that then I;m all set, just have to create boot from the flash drive with windows 10 and reinstall.


----------



## PC person

Ok, if I can explore from tthe acronis image I won't use laplink. Here the instruction I will follow, think you linked to them earlier in the thread. It's for my laptop, making it for my desktop.



Download Windows 10



And, the reason I am saving the whole hard drive is just in case- so that I have everything, I don't intend to reinstall/restore the entire hosed installed, just so I have it all and can get programs from it to reinstall after I reinstall windows.


----------



## spunk.funk

If you are installing on a Desktop, You can remove your old HDD with your files on it and install a brand new HDD or better yet SSD and do a clean install of Windows. You then can install your old HDD as a secondary drive and copy the files from it to your new Installation.


----------



## PC person

trying to reinstall windows, see this thread now..............









Windows media creation tool won't boot from USB...


I created a bootable USB flash drive with the windows media creation tool and burned it to a USB flash drive. I tried setting the bios to boot from the drive. There is even an option in my bios to do a boot override and select directly from the bios what device I want to boot up with right there...




www.techsupportforum.com




\

Is there a way for me just to post the link itsel, instead of it showing the post? Happened with a link I tried to post to another forum, I just want to post the link itself, not part of what is on the page it links to.


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> trying to reinstall windows, see this thread now..............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Windows media creation tool won't boot from USB...
> 
> 
> I created a bootable USB flash drive with the windows media creation tool and burned it to a USB flash drive. I tried setting the bios to boot from the drive. There is even an option in my bios to do a boot override and select directly from the bios what device I want to boot up with right there...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.techsupportforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> \
> 
> Is there a way for me just to post the link itsel, instead of it showing the post? Happened with a link I tried to post to another forum, I just want to post the link itself, not part of what is on the page it links to.


That is just a preview of the page that you linked to. This is controlled by forum software and unfortunately you cannot disable it in account settings. Simply ignore it. What's important is that you posted the right link.


----------



## Rich-M

Usb booting on older pcs can be problematic, the main reason I always use bootable dvds.


----------



## pencil90

Windows 10 Upgrade 
tutorial Turn On or Off Fast Startup in Windows 10


----------



## PC person

Rich-M said:


> Usb booting on older pcs can be problematic, the main reason I always use bootable dvds.


It's 9 years old, don't think that's old enough to be problematic is it? It won't fit on a booable 4.7GB DVD, maybe a dual layer, but not sure my drive can burn those/use those.


----------



## spunk.funk

Most people upgrade to a new computer after 5 years or so. Holding on to old stuff is fine, and it's probably not an issue, but it may not take newer software as easily as a newer computer would, making it...... well, problematic.
The Windows 10 ISO image from this link Download Windows 10 fits on a 4.75GB DVD disc.


----------



## Rich-M

PC person said:


> It's 9 years old, don't think that's old enough to be problematic is it? It won't fit on a booable 4.7GB DVD, maybe a dual layer, but not sure my drive can burn those/use those.


Oh yes definitely old enough!


----------



## Stancestans

To add, some older hardware such as yours, have compatibility issues with the latest version of Windows 10. You may have better luck with an older version, say 1909, then if it boots just fine, you can do an in-place upgrade to v20H2. To download a previous build and burn it to flash drive, you can use Rufus.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> Most people upgrade to a new computer after 5 years or so. Holding on to old stuff is fine, and it's probably not an issue, but it may not take newer software as easily as a newer computer would, making it...... well, problematic.
> The Windows 10 ISO image from this link Download Windows 10 fits on a 4.75GB DVD disc.


which link on the page are you talking about in particular, the one withj the tool is the one I've been using that doesn't work on a flash drive, it says I need a dual layer dvd to burn it to.


----------



## PC person

Rich-M said:


> Oh yes definitely old enough!


Thought it would have to be older than that, USB flash drives and booting has been around longer.


----------



## spunk.funk

My Bad, I haven't burned a Windows DVD in several years, it looks like the install size has increased to 4.89GB, so it won't fit on a 4.75 GB Disc, that's why we suggest using brand new, never used USB Flash drives of 8GB or larger.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> My Bad, I haven't burned a Windows DVD in several years, it looks like the install size has increased to 4.89GB, so it won't fit on a 4.75 GB Disc, that's why we suggest using brand new, never used USB Flash drives of 8GB or larger.


Sounds kind of like a pain to need a buy a flash drive for one use only, or at least just to do one thing, one time. I am going to be trying a dual layer dvd, however, to boot it from. I think I should re-connect the hard drive.

At least with a pack of dual layer DVD-R's I could use the other ones for other things.


----------



## spunk.funk

A flash drive can be reused and repurposed for several things. A DVD-R Dual-Layer is a one time burn and cannot be repurposed., that is if it doesn't fail the burn or failed to be read by the DVD drive. It's always a good idea to have a Windows installer to troubleshoot your Windows OS.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> A flash drive can be reused and repurposed for several things. A DVD-R Dual-Layer is a one time burn and cannot be repurposed., that is if it doesn't fail the burn or failed to be read by the DVD drive. It's always a good idea to have a Windows installer to troubleshoot your Windows OS.


Well, I could pick up an 8GB flash drive tommorrow along with the DVD's when I get them. Perhaps I should.


----------



## Corday

Good idea. You'll find the flash drive useful. Not just a one time thing you mentioned.


----------



## PC person

Corday said:


> Good idea. You'll find the flash drive useful. Not just a one time thing you mentioned.


You think I should specifically get an exactly 8GB flash drive?


----------



## spunk.funk

The size of the flash drive should be 8, 16 or 32GB, a 64GB or larger flash drives may not be recognized on an older PC.


----------



## PC person

Well, I just tried with a dual layer 8.5GB dvd, it didn't work. It is somewhat similar to the flash drive. I inserted the disc went into the bios and chose boot override for the optical drive. A message came up saying "press any key to boot from cd/dvd" I did.

Then, it shows me the bios startup screen again- republic of gamers, with three swirling dots, I let it try to do this for a few minutes, then I got a BSOD.

One of the things that was different is, this drive shows the disc as being the full 8.5GB, on this laptop, under windows10 SEPE it shows the disc as being completely full at 4.56GB and no bytes remaining on the desktop. I'm using a program called vso inspector, to see what formats the drive can play and write. VSO Inspector: free CD, DVD and Blu-ray scanning reporting tool for testing your medias and burners 

It shows the desktop can write DVD+R DL (I burned in on this laptop, though.) but not whether it can read dual layer dvds.

Even though it says you're creating the disc for another PC with the media creation tool, I wonder if it would make a difference if I downloaded the media creation tool and burned it on the desktop instead. When I download and burn it on this laptop it boots.


----------



## spunk.funk

PC person said:


> I burned in on this laptop


 Can you boot into Windows? If so, just download the Windows 10 ISO to this computer right click it and choose Mount. This will load a virtual DVD, double click Setup.exe. To upgrade your version of Windows 10.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> Can you boot into Windows? If so, just download the Windows 10 ISO to this computer right click it and choose Mount. This will load a virtual DVD, double click Setup.exe. To upgrade your version of Windows 10.


I'm not trying to upgrade windows 10, on any computer right now. I'm trying reinstall it on my desktop. Three flash drives and now a DVD+R DL have now failed to successfully boot first with the media creation tool (with the flash drives) and now the iso on the DVD+R DL

Unless what you are saying is I could boot with the flash drive with windows10 SEPE on the desktop., mount the iso there, and use that reinstall windows on my desktop's hard drive.


----------



## Stancestans

What was the error message in the bsod?


----------



## spunk.funk

You don't even need the Flash drive. If you have the Windows 10 ISO image on your HDD, just Right click it and choose *Mount*. In the Virtual DVD,. Double click *Setup.exe* and start the install. It will give the option to install and_ Keep_ your files, _OR_ do an Install and do _not_ keep Any files. Not exactly a Clean Install, but it will overwrite your current Windows 10 with a fresh one.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> You don't even need the Flash drive. If you have the Windows 10 ISO image on your HDD, just Right click it and choose *Mount*. In the Virtual DVD,. Double click *Setup.exe* and start the install. It will give the option to install and_ Keep_ your files, _OR_ do an Install and do _not_ keep Any files. Not exactly a Clean Install, but it will overwrite your current Windows 10 with a fresh one.


I'd still rather do a clean install. There MUST be some reason why I can't boot from a flash drive and a double layer DVD with the windows 10. Like I said though, not sure that computer can read them, I don't know why it says the whole disc is full when it isn't when I boot with Windows10 SEPE, do you? Why does the Windows10 PESE bootable flash drive work on the desktop but NOT the windows recovery tool on a flash drive or dvd.

Even if I could do a clean install, I'm told I shouldn't format the hard drive and reinstall windows 10, that doing so would erase the product key, but I didn't enter one, I put one in when I got the computer and when I reinstalled Windows 7 on it a few times, but it didn't ask me for one when I upgraded to Windows 10. 

But, I read something else that said if I try to reinstall windows 10, it will just ask me for my previous windows 7 key, which I have, maybe that's ONLY if I don't reformat the drive.


----------



## PC person

Stancestans said:


> What was the error message in the bsod?


I'm getting driver pnp watchdog- this one How to Fix the Stop Code DRIVER PNP WATCHDOG - Appuals.com

I could try some of these suggestions.


----------



## spunk.funk

PC person said:


> I'm told I shouldn't format the hard drive and reinstall windows 10


 If you are running a UEFI Bios, the product key is saved in the Bios. If needed, not usually, you can type in your Windows 7 Product key, it doesn't matter if the drive is formatted.
A Clean Install would Delete *All *Partitions, you would be _formatting_ your drive. If you follow the instructions in post *#125 *you will _Overwrite_ the previous Windows installation. 


PC person said:


> I don't know why it says the whole disc is full when it isn't when I boot with Windows10 SEPE


 I'm not sure what you mean? The disk will be Full because it has Windows on it already. 
The only reason you can't boot from a USB Flash Drive or a CD/DVD is because 1. The drive is not the First Boot Device, 2. It was not burned correctly and the boot disk is not being read correctly 
To boot from a USB Flash drive, burn a Brand New, Never used Flash Drive. In the Bios, under the Boot tab, select UEFI and CSM/Legacy boot. Save and Exit.


----------



## PC person

> If you are running a UEFI Bios, the product key is saved in the Bios. If needed, not usually, you can type in your Windows 7 Product key, it doesn't matter if the drive is formatted.
> A Clean Install would Delete *All *Partitions, you would be _formatting_ your drive. If you follow the instructions in post *#125 *you will _Overwrite_ the previous Windows installation.
> I'm not sure what you mean? The disk will be Full because it has Windows on it already.


I mean the dvd disc, not the hard drive.



> The only reason you can't boot from a USB Flash Drive or a CD/DVD is because 1. The drive is not the First Boot Device, 2. It was not burned correctly and the boot disk is not being read correctly
> To boot from a USB Flash drive, burn a Brand New, Never used Flash Drive. In the Bios, under the Boot tab, select UEFI and CSM/Legacy boot. Save and Exit.


it's not the first one. I choose boot override to boot from the device right then and there in the BIOS, it has not worked with any of the flash drives or the DVD with the windows iso on it. It's not the second one because I have burned it multiple times, I'm doing it right, I doubt even a brand new one will work but I can try it.

Maybe someone will have an idea what the BSOD has to do with it, it happens during the boot. I even took a couple videos of me trying to boot from both the UEFI DVD drive on the desktop and the P4 (that's the other option to boot from the dvd drive in the bios)


----------



## spunk.funk

Sounds like you are not doing a Clean Install (ie) Deleting* ALL* Partitions on the Drive at the _Where to Install Windows _area of the setup.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> Sounds like you are not doing a Clean Install (ie) Deleting* ALL* Partitions on the Drive at the _Where to Install Windows _area of the setup.


No, I'm not. I can't even get to the setup, the drive with it on it doesn't successfully boot on my desktop.


----------



## spunk.funk

Remove or unplug the HDD and try to boot to your external media. If that is successful, the HDD needs to be replaced. If it also fails, then the RAM has an issue, try removing one RAM stick and boot the removable media. Swap the RAM and slots around, replace if it fails.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> Remove or unplug the HDD and try to boot to your external media. If that is successful, the HDD needs to be replaced. If it also fails, then the RAM has an issue, try removing one RAM stick and boot the removable media. Swap the RAM and slots around, replace if it fails.


I've already disconnected the hard drive and tried to boot with my flash drives and DVD, that didn't work either. What about the BSOD I mentioned, maybe that's what I need to solve.


----------



## spunk.funk

spunk.funk said:


> then the RAM has an issue, try removing one RAM stick and boot the removable media. Swap the RAM and slots around, replace if RAM fails.


 you can also run *Memtest *to test each RAM Stick separately from a Rescue Boot USB Flash


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> you can also run *Memtest *to test each RAM Stick separately from a Rescue Boot USB Flash


Yes, I've done that before, but are you sure it's probably the ram and we shouldn't foillow any of the suggestions first (or other ones) before doing this regarding this specific BSOD?


----------



## spunk.funk

There are 3 things that cause a BSOD, The HDD/SSD drive, the RAM or a Hardware fault on the motherboard, or the Power Supply Unit on a desktop. If you remove all drives (ie)HDD/SSD, CD/DVD drive and all externals and it still BSOD's then it's got to be the RAM or the Motherboard.


----------



## Stancestans

Regarding the BSOD, the age of your hardware and the fact that the Windows 10 PESE media boots just fine while the MCT media doesn't, suggests there is a compatibility (driver) issue between a component on your system and a bundled driver in the MCT media. Like I said before, try an older version of Windows 10. You can use Rufus to download a previous version of Windows 10. Some systems won't upgrade beyond a certain version of Windows 10 because of incompatibility with certain integrated components.


----------



## PC person

Stancestans said:


> Regarding the BSOD, the age of your hardware and the fact that the Windows 10 PESE media boots just fine while the MCT media doesn't, suggests there is a compatibility (driver) issue between a component on your system and a bundled driver in the MCT media. Like I said before, try an older version of Windows 10. You can use Rufus to download a previous version of Windows 10. Some systems won't upgrade beyond a certain version of Windows 10 because of incompatibility with certain integrated components.


Or another route I could take, if possible is reinstall windows 7 on it, then without putting anything on the hard drive yet, upgrade to windows 10.


----------



## PC person

> You can use Rufus to download a previous version of Windows 10. Some systems won't upgrade beyond a certain version of Windows 10 because of incompatibility with certain integrated components.


What build would you go with, if I wanted tot totally play it safe, the first/original one I'm guessing.


----------



## oscer1

i would go with 1909 the older ones like 1803 is not supported


----------



## Corday

PC person said:


> Or another route I could take, if possible is reinstall windows 7 on it, then without putting anything on the hard drive yet, upgrade to windows 10.


On a machine that still had a recovery partition I did exactly that as for some reason the ISO didn't work and 10 was corrupted.


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> Or another route I could take, if possible is reinstall windows 7 on it, then without putting anything on the hard drive yet, upgrade to windows 10.


That could work too, but bringing Windows 7 up to date with the required updates for an in-place upgrade to 10 is a painfully long process. Downloading an older version or two of Windows 10 is still way faster.


PC person said:


> What build would you go with, if I wanted tot totally play it safe, the first/original one I'm guessing.


1903 or 1909, not older than that.


----------



## PC person

Neither 1909 or 1903 is an option in rufus goes from 180364 to 19041 thinking I should try the latter.


----------



## spunk.funk

Rufus is just a USB Flash drive burning software, it doesn't offer any Microsoft Windows 10 ISO images. You can download Windows 10 1909 from this page. Windows 10 Version 1909 - English 64-bit ISO : Microsoft : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> Neither 1909 or 1903 is an option in rufus goes from 180364 to 19041 thinking I should try the latter.


1909 = 19H2 while 1903 = 19H1.


spunk.funk said:


> Rufus is just a USB Flash drive burning software, it doesn't offer any Microsoft Windows 10 ISO images.


It actually offers downloading any release of Windows 10 using a powershell script. The downloads offered are straight from MS servers. For example, the link for 1909 International English 64-bit version is https://software-download.microsoft...1616186750&h=8217130a00408ab234cb5dca02e1a8c9. See screenshots:


----------



## PC person

It didn't work, when I tried to boot up with the 32GB flash drive formatted with 1903. But, I notice a common trend that has happened with it and other flash drive boots is it STARTS to boot correctly, then goes back to the bios startup screen with the swirling dots. Maybe finding out why this is happening is key to solving it.

I always choose the boot override menu to boot with right then and there in the BIOS, sometimes the same device will be listed twice there as UEFI and non UEFI but neither one works.

I have recorded (and can post) videos of boots with both the 1903 (legacy and UEFI) and boots with the 20H2 (legacy and UEFI) with the DVD, all of them end in the same PNP watchdog BSOD error.


----------



## Stancestans

See How can I fix "Driver PNP Watchdog" error if window's won't boot? for possible solutions.


----------



## PC person

Actually, I found this, this is a little more accurate as to what I was doing Driver PNP Watchdog Error

Basically, they're saying the same thing you and spunk have said, that my computer is old. It's just the computer cost about 3.6K when I got it in 2012, want to see if I can squeeze the most life out of it as possible. I can see what drivers are old and also what hardware needs to be replaced. I didn't install Windows 10 directly on the computer, but upgraded from Windows 7. I've attached a receipt of the computer when I bought it and it's components, some of them have changed, I replace all the ram it has like 48 GB of it right now, no water cooler anymore (didn't need it since I don't overclock)

You said that if I installed Windows 7, I would have to wait a long time to install all the updates. So, are you saying I can still download all the old updates- up until the point they stopped making new ones available?

What if just installed windows 7, didn't download any updates- just upgraded to Windows 10 immediately then installed the updates for that? 

If the only choice is to buy a new computer, then I will do so, probably won't spend as much this time, probably use my tax refund. I still think there are uses for this one however. It wouldn't make it useless if I can't run Windows 10 on it.

At the very least I just want to know why Windows 10 PESE boots from a flash drive while other builds don't, not that I'd be able to do anything about it.


----------



## Stancestans

See my previous reply. The suggestions there might work for you too. What version of Windows is your Windows 10 PESE media based on?


----------



## PC person

Stancestans said:


> See my previous reply. The suggestions there might work for you too. What version of Windows is your Windows 10 PESE media based on?


Says when I boot with under help- about windows under system that it is version 1607 OS OS builld 14393

I don't fully understand all those suggestions in the thread, one of them was to change the sata controller to IDE, when I do that I get a different error message when I try to boot from the flash drive, saying that something is wrong and needs to be repaired rather than the pnp watchdog error.

Right now, the hard drive is in the desktop, but is not connected to either power or the motherboard. Since I'm booting (trying to) boot from a flash drive I don't see how the OS/hard drive is involved, at least not the full version of the OS on the hard drive,

All that is involved is the bios trying to boot from the flash drive, but the new error message may about the hard drive being disconnected and it can't boot from it. Again, not sure what that has to do with the flash drive and the iso on it itself, but you had said earlier in the thread to disconnect the hard drive and try it, which it is now.


----------



## Stancestans

> It didn't work, when I tried to boot up with the 32GB flash drive formatted with 1903. But, I notice a common trend that has happened with it and other flash drive boots is it STARTS to boot correctly, then goes back to the bios startup screen with the swirling dots. Maybe finding out why this is happening is key to solving it.


The swirling dots are the Windows 10 boot animation. They are normal and expected. They are an indication of the boot progress. When you boot in UEFI mode, you'll see the OEM brand logo and the swiring dots, but in legacy boot mode, you'll only see the swirling dots. We've already established that booting is failing as a result of a BSOD, most likely caused by unsupported hardware configuration.



> It's just the computer cost about 3.6K when I got it in 2012, want to see if I can squeeze the most life out of it as possible...I still think there are uses for this one however. It wouldn't make it useless if I can't run Windows 10 on it.


Unfortunately, a high price tag doesn't guarantee compatibility with ALL OS versions. You can repurpose old hardware in many other ways if the solutions offered here don't work.



> You said that if I installed Windows 7, I would have to wait a long time to install all the updates. So, are you saying I can still download all the old updates- up until the point they stopped making new ones available?


Yes



> What if just installed windows 7, didn't download any updates- just upgraded to Windows 10 immediately then installed the updates for that?


There are required updates that need to be installed prior to performing an in-place upgrade, but at this point, you have nothing but time to lose, so you could always try it and see how it goes.



> At the very least I just want to know why Windows 10 PESE boots from a flash drive while other builds don't, not that I'd be able to do anything about it.


Here's your answer:



> Says when I boot with under help- about windows under system that it is version 1607 OS OS builld 14393





> I don't fully understand all those suggestions in the thread, one of them was to change the sata controller to IDE, when I do that I get a different error message when I try to boot from the flash drive, saying that something is wrong and needs to be repaired rather than the pnp watchdog error.


What exactly does the new error message say? At this point you surely must have noticed that being specific helps us help you better.



> Right now, the hard drive is in the desktop, but is not connected to either power or the motherboard. Since I'm booting (trying to) boot from a flash drive I don't see how the OS/hard drive is involved, at least not the full version of the OS on the hard drive,
> 
> All that is involved is the bios trying to boot from the flash drive, but the new error message may about the hard drive being disconnected and it can't boot from it. Again, not sure what that has to do with the flash drive and the iso on it itself, but you had said earlier in the thread to disconnect the hard drive and try it, which it is now.


It's common for the BIOS/firmware to store a boot entry of the OS that was installed on the internal boot drive and try to boot from that entry even if the drive is not present anymore. This, as expected, results in failure to boot. It seems when you manually select to boot from the flash, the bsod happens and the system restarts/resets automatically (the bios splash screen appears again) and tries to boot from the saved boot order starting with the saved boot entry that points to a non-present HDD. If changing SATA mode to IDE still doesn't work, then there's nothing else left to do. That BSOD will most likely still happen if you use the Win 7 to 10 upgrade path, or slow down to a crawl if the BSOD doesn't botch the upgrade.


----------



## PC person

Here's the error message I get when switching it from AHCI to IDE











enter doesn't work, I tried F8, didn't give me any settings to choose IIRC- just restarted again, not sure about escape

I wonder if all I'd need to do just replace the hard drive itself and my system would be able to run later Windows 10 builds. I could see which hardware isn't compatible with it and what I'd need to replace, may be less expensive than buying a whole new computer.


----------



## Stancestans

Changing from AHCI to IDE should not bring up that error IF you're booting from a USB flash drive. Your system was definitely not booting from the flash drive when it threw that error, but instead, was trying to boot from the detached HDD. Look at the saved boot order entries in your BIOS and confirm that there are no entries pointing to the detached HDD. The entry may be named "Windows Boot Manager", created after your last attempt to upgrade to Windows 10. Delete that entry since it's useless now. Also, change the boot order and place the USB flash drive on top of the list. I also recall instructing you to set boot mode to Legacy only (disable UEFI boot) due to the age of your system, to limit booting to legacy mode only. Then, and only then, should you try booting from Windows installation media while SATA controller mode is set to IDE.

The SATA controller is an integrated component of your motherboard (part of the chipset) and could no longer be compatible with the AHCI driver that's bundled in the Windows installation media you're trying to boot from. Changing to IDE mode forces Windows to use a different driver instead of the unsupported AHCI driver. Fixing incompatibility is not as simple as replacing the HDD, but that should be part of the plan considering the age of the drive. It's not a guarantee that the SATA controller is the offending component, though. It could be something else altogether, such as the Asmedia usb controller. Any incompatible or defunct device/drive could trigger the PNP watchdog BSOD. Defective touchpads on laptops are known to cause the same issue.


----------



## PC person

> Changing from AHCI to IDE should not bring up that error IF you're booting from a USB flash drive. Your system was definitely not booting from the flash drive when it threw that error, but instead, was trying to boot from the detached HDD. Look at the saved boot order entries in your BIOS and confirm that there are no entries pointing to the detached HDD. The entry may be named "Windows Boot Manager", created after your last attempt to upgrade to Windows 10. Delete that entry since it's useless now. Also, change the boot order and place the USB flash drive on top of the list. I also recall instructing you to set boot mode to Legacy only (disable UEFI boot) due to the age of your system, to limit booting to legacy mode only. Then, and only then, should you try booting from Windows installation media while SATA controller mode is set to IDE.


I did all of this, set the mode to IDE, set it to legacy booting only. The drive the flash drive I am trying to boot from is build 1903. As you can see here in the BIOS. Here's a screenshot of my BIOS, with the boot order and boot override menu, I was thinking also, as I think spunk funk suggested disconnecting everything, the 3 other devices are two external hard drives and the optical dvd/cd drive.













the bottom one highlighted looks a little hard to see. it says vendorcoproductcode 30,000 MB (the flash drive I'm trying to boot from)


Rather than choosing/changing the boot order and rebooting, I always pick the boot override to boot from what I want right then there- saves time. There;s no difference is there? Other than booting with the boot order set will try to boot from EACH device in order, but when I choose boot override it will only try to boot from the device I specify, correct?

Also, the hard drive was connected to the optical drive in the system, and it showed as a device when I had it connected in the bios, but it's ok that isn't connected to the optical drive- and that is connected to the motherboard, I recall IDE drives had a master/slave relationship setting, not sure about SATA.

And, here is the screenshot when I try choose to boot from the flash drive with build 1903 on it, as we can see it doesn't work in legacy, booting with it in UEFI gives the PNP watchdog error.














> The SATA controller is an integrated component of your motherboard (part of the chipset) and could no longer be compatible with the AHCI driver that's bundled in the Windows installation media you're trying to boot from. Changing to IDE mode forces Windows to use a different driver instead of the unsupported AHCI driver. Fixing incompatibility is not as simple as replacing the HDD, but that should be part of the plan considering the age of the drive. It's not a guarantee that the SATA controller is the offending component, though. It could be something else altogether, such as the Asmedia usb controller. Any incompatible or defunct device/drive could trigger the PNP watchdog BSOD. Defective touchpads on laptops are known to cause the same issue.


Maybe there's a way to see exactly everything (hardware and software) that isn't compatible with current windows 10 builds and it may be an upgrade/overhaul of my systems's hardware and software which may be less expensive than buying a whole new system.


----------



## spunk.funk

Disconnect _both_ of your WD USB External Drives, and any other external drives on the computer. Boot to the Bios. Reset HDD mode back to *AHCI*. _Uncheck_ *Secure Boot*, _and_ *CSM.* _Save and Exit_. Place USB Flash drive created in Rufus. Restart with the Flash Drive in, boot back into the Bios. In_ Boot Override_, Select the Flash drive and click the* +* or* -* sign to _Move_ the Flash drive up to _First Boot Device_. *Save and Exit* (again) This should restart and boot to the USB Flash Drive. If so, shut down and insert an SSD or SATA HDD and try booting from Flash Drive again to install Windows.


----------



## PC person

> Disconnect _both_ of your WD USB External Drives, and any other external drives on the computer. Boot to the Bios. Reset HDD mode back to *AHCI*. _Uncheck_ *Secure Boot*, _and_ *CSM.* _Save and Exit_.


Ok, will do



> Place USB Flash drive created in Rufus. Restart with the Flash Drive in, boot back into the Bios. In_ Boot Override_, Select the Flash drive and click the* +* or* -* sign to _Move_ the Flash drive up to _First Boot Device_. *Save and Exit* (again)


Did you mean to say "In boot overide select the flash drive OR click the +/- sign to move the flash drive up to the first boot device? I'm just wondering what the difference is between selecting it in boot override to boot from it right then and there, and moving it up to the first boot device, the saving and exiting to reboot- don't they do the same thing?



> This should restart and boot to the USB Flash Drive. If so, shut down and insert an SSD or SATA HDD and try booting from Flash Drive again to install Windows.


I'm thinking I should also disconnect the CD/DVD drive, if absolutely nothing is listed in the boot menu but the flash drive and it either

1. Gives me the same message I posted above about not being able to boot from the drive in legacy mode or
2. Tries to boot but I get the PNP watchdog error if I try to boot from it in UEFI mode

What will this mean? I'm thinking that I just CAN'T boot from the flash drive/later builds on windows no matter what with my current hardware and software setup, that I must upgrade hardware and software or get a whole new up to date system.


----------



## spunk.funk

In the Bios Override, You need to _move _the USB flash drive to the first boot device, just selecting it in the Bios does not move it to first device, so the Bios goes to whatever is the first device in the list. If one of the drives previously has boot files on it, then it will give you an error because it can't boot to that device.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> In the Bios Override, You need to _move _the USB flash drive to the first boot device, just selecting it in the Bios does not move it to first device, so the Bios goes to whatever is the first device in the list. If one of the drives previously has boot files on it, then it will give you an error because it can't boot to that device.


You understand how the bios override works, right? When I choose the device in it, then It boots from that device right then and there that I choose, regardless of what the boot order is above it. I'm not sure if the boot list would apply, if after I choose the device in boot override it won't try booting from the other devices/follow the order (if it can't boot from the device I chose) will it?

The boot order is for devices when I turn the system on, which is not what I'm doing.


----------



## spunk.funk

If Boot Override is not working, then change the Boot Order in the Bios.


----------



## PC person

It is working, as far as I know. I think the problem it just can't boot from the drive

Anyway, what I'm thinking about doing is removing all the external hardwarem connected to the computer that I possibly can to try and boot, until they only thing it shows in the BIOS is the flash drive that it can boot from.

What about removing the keyboard from USB, at the very least I would need either the mouse or the keyboard to select things in the BIOS, Unless it could be something, as you mentioned, the RAM, video card, etc.


----------



## spunk.funk

If Boot Override was working, it would boot from the USB Flash Drive, so in the Bios, go to the* Boot* tab/Area. With the Flash Drive in, it should be listed under UEFI Boot Manager, move it to First Boot Device, _Save and Exit_. 
As stated, you should not have any other external drives plugged into the computer. You will need the USB keyboard, Mouse and Flash Drive plugged in though.


----------



## PC person

Ok, this time I've actually had some success. As you can see in this screenshot, the only thing bootable is the flash drive running windows 10 build 1903. I disconnected the hard drive, optical drive and the 2 external USB hard drives that were connected to it in the back










I tried booting with it in legacy mode and got this same message











But, I changed to UEFI only (Sata mode is still in IDE) and both with boot override and simply powering off at the bios screen and rebooting I get this same result that I wasn't getting before, this is on my desktop










But, with the hard drive disconnected how I am going to reinstall windows 10 with this?




> If Boot Override was working, it would boot from the USB Flash Drive, so in the Bios, go to the* Boot* tab/Area.


What exactly is boot override and

1. how does it differ, say in the above case from selecting the item in boot override and having it try to boot from it right then and there and
2. Powering off the computer with one (in the above case) device it and turning it back on and having it boot up from it

I thought they aren't any different, but what if

1. I had two devices in the boot order, say a hard drive and a flash drive, the flash drive was set as the first device and the hard drive as second. If I turned on the computer and it couldn't boot from the flash drive it would try to hard drive next, but...
2. If I pressed the button to into the BIOS and selected the flash drive in the boot override, if it couldn't boot from the flash drive would it try to second device next, or does boot override ONLY try to boot from the device you select?

Edit: Also, this time, since I disconnected both the optical drive and the hard drive, the sata power cable went first to the optical, then the hard drive. Just now, a few hours from the above post-I reconnected ONLY the hard drive to the first connector on the chain for power (those are hard to connect to the drives, at least for me) and now the hard drive isn't showing in the bios

Either because 
1. didn't connect the power cable properly, or 
2. it has to be a certain connector on the power cable, OR 
3. It matters which data cable I connect to the drive, not just any one will work.


----------



## spunk.funk

spunk.funk said:


> Disconnect _both_ of your WD USB External Drives, and any other external drives on the computer. Boot to the Bios. Reset HDD mode back to *AHCI*. _Uncheck_ *Secure Boot*, _and_ *CSM.* _Save and Exit_.


If you follow the above instructions with the HDD plugged in, and you are booting from the USB flash drive, it should load the Windows installer, as seen in your last pic. Then choose your *Language*, then *Custom Install*. In_ Where to Install Windows_, if it shows your HDD, Delete *all* Partitions so the drive is *Unallocated Space*, then press *Next*, Windows will do everything else.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> If you follow the above instructions with the HDD plugged in, and you are booting from the USB flash drive, it should load the Windows installer, as seen in your last pic. Then choose your *Language*, then *Custom Install*. In_ Where to Install Windows_, if it shows your HDD, Delete *all* Partitions so the drive is *Unallocated Space*, then press *Next*, Windows will do everything else.


But the drive was set to IDE when the flash drive successfully booted and is right now. Hope that won't change it successfully booting from the flash drive.

It's just I may not understand the SATA power cables, that THAT is the reason I can't see the hard drive as bootable in the BIOS because I have to use the next available connector in the chain, not say the second of third without using the first for something first, OR because it's not set to ACHI in the BIOS, or both

Here, it does show the hard drive under the HDD mode part of the bios, but not under the bootable devices










Doesn't show as bootable either under IDE or ACHI. I haven't tried booting from the flash drive with the HDD attached, first I want to know why it STILL only shows the only bootable device as the flash drive.


----------



## PC person

Also, I appreciate your help, Stan and Spunk, but this is getting pretty tedious for me. It's less of a problem when it's something that doesn't actually prevent your computer from booting, that can wait, but I've been without being able to use my desktop for what is 3 weeks today.

I figure a more costly, but less time consuming alternative would be to have someone visit my house, and do all the necessary tests/scans whatever. If something doesn't work, they could try something different right then and there, rather than me having to wait a day or so for the next step, but I may not be able to contact someone until Monday, so until then I can keep trying................I'm not complaining you have been helpful, it just seems one problem leads to another. I got it to successfully boot, now it doesn't show the hard drive as bootable in this bios and I don't know why.

If I had to do this over again if I knew it was going to be this lengthy and complicated, I would have had some visit the first time. Or, at least someone with me in real time (remotely I suppose) who could tellme the next step without long delays in-between.


----------



## Stancestans

I wouldn't worry about the HDD not showing up under boot(able) devices. Now that you've (finally) successfully booted from your Rufus-created UEFI bootable Windows 10 media and reached the Windows 10 setup welcome screen, and have re-attached the 2TB HDD which is detected in BIOS, why don't you boot from the flash drive and begin the installation? Let's worry about Windows setup detecting the HDD and NOT its absence in the boot menu. The goal is to successfully install Windows 10 on the HDD and NOT get distracted by every teeny tiny tiddly bit of observation you're making in the BIOS. Let's make some actionable progress for a change, shall we?


----------



## PC person

Stancestans said:


> I wouldn't worry about the HDD not showing up under boot(able) devices. Now that you've (finally) successfully booted from your Rufus-created UEFI bootable Windows 10 media and reached the Windows 10 setup welcome screen, and have re-attached the 2TB HDD which is detected in BIOS, why don't you boot from the flash drive and begin the installation? Let's worry about Windows setup detecting the HDD and NOT its absence in the boot menu. The goal is to successfully install Windows 10 on the HDD and NOT get distracted by every teeny tiny tiddly bit of observation you're making in the BIOS. Let's make some actionable progress for a change, shall we?


Well, I wonder how it would boot if it's in the boot list in my BIOS once the Windows 10 Pro 64 bit is installed. It tried reinstalling, it asked me for a license key, but there was an option for "I don't have license key" It told me I chose this option it would validate it later, all I have is the Windows 7 license key on the side on my computer when I first bought it.

There is one thing I'd like to do before I wipe the system clean and reinstall Windows 10, which I can make a new thread for, or maybe I could use acronis as I made a full backup before this started. 

I just want to be able to boot from the hard drive in it's current state, see a few things before I wipe the hard drive clean and reinstall windows 10.


----------



## Stancestans

PC person said:


> Well, I wonder how it would boot if it's in the boot list in my BIOS once the Windows 10 Pro 64 bit is installed.


Let's leave that for the firmware. If it doesn't, we'll address it then.



> It tried reinstalling, it asked me for a license key, but there was an option for "I don't have license key" It told me I chose this option it would validate it later, all I have is the Windows 7 license key on the side on my computer when I first bought it.


You've already been advised about this.



> There is one thing I'd like to do before I wipe the system clean and reinstall Windows 10, which I'll be making a new thread for. I just want to be able to boot from the hard drive in it's current state, see a few things before I wipe the hard drive clean and reinstall windows 10.


You're taking us back 100 steps! It's already been established, done and dusted, that in its current state, the installation of Windows 10 on that disk is hosed and unserviceable. There is no booting from it successfully in its current state. If you want to go back to the futile exercise of trying to boot from the botched Windows 10 upgrade installation, be my guest, but that's where I disembark from this train of indecisiveness, backtracking and procrastination. You could barely boot from a flash drive, do you honestly want to attempt repairing the botched installation that doesn't even boot? You already have a backup image of the drive, why don't you explore that image to see whatever it is you want to check? Oh well, this is most likely my last reply to this thread and any other that branches off of it, so good luck in your next course of action.


----------



## spunk.funk

PC person said:


> there was an option for "I don't have license key" It told me I chose this option it would validate it later, all I have is the Windows 7 license key on the side on my computer when I first bought it.


 As discussed earlier in this thread, choose _I don't have a license_. Once Win 10 is installed, if it's not Activated, you can type in your Win 7 key. 
Don't tempt fate, As discussed at length here, If you can boot to the Flash Drive In _Where to Install Windows_, and it shows your HDD, Delete _*ALL*_ partitions and press* Next*. End of story.


----------



## PC person

Ok, I went ahead and reinstalled windows. The only two things I on my desktop right now are microsoft edge and the recycle bin. It has asked me for my wireless network information before it was fully installed/as part of the installation, so I used microsoft edge to download my video driver.

My plan is install that, install acronis true image, then make a backup image of a nearly clean install with only those things. Then, add several more things and make an incremental backup, such as firefox- it's bookmarks, my email client, my password vault program, feem and a few more. 

Thing is, it asked me to restart after I installed my video driver, and I wasn't sure if it will restart, given it's not in the bios boot menu, but I have a feeling reinstalling the OS isn't the same as a cold boot- the bios looking for a hard drive to boot from.


----------



## oscer1

I would not worry about bios no need to go in their just restart computer as it asked


----------



## spunk.funk

Make sure you have removed your USB Boot Windows Installer, or it will start the install again.


----------



## PC person

spunk.funk said:


> Make sure you have removed your USB Boot Windows Installer, or it will start the install again.


I did, well actually it would bring up the start/install windows 10 screen again, and I'd just say no.

We're getting close to being able to close this thread now, just what I want to understand is why it booted successfully when other times it didn't. In the bios I have IDE selected, I had UEFI only selected and the flash drive as the ONLY bootable device. But, it wouldn't successfully boot when I had the two external hard drives connected and the internal hard drive and optical drive connected.

I hope you won't disregard why, You can (like Stan) choose to help with that or not help, you may think it's not important now that I can reinstall windows it just seems important to me to understand why it worked this time and others times it didn't.

Obviously, the part about my hardware not being current enough to support windows build 1303 was wrong because I am now able to successfully boot and reinstall with it.


----------



## Stancestans

You can now do some experiments and eliminate what caused the boot failure in your earlier attempts. This should give you answers. Here's how you could go about it:

1. With everything else unchanged; power off, detach the HDD, (power back on and) revert SATA mode to AHCI, save the changes and exit then boot from the flash drive that you just used to clean-install Windows. If the pnp watchdog bsod reoccurs, then you know that the sata controller of your system is not supported by the AHCI driver that is being loaded when the Windows 10 Preinstallation Environment is being loaded from the flash. If it doesn't bsod in AHCI mode when loading from the flash drive, then you know that was not the culprit and one of the extra devices that were attached was responsible.

Note that the newly installed copy of Windows 10 on the HDD will not boot because of the SATA mode change. This is because that copy of Windows is configured to load the IDE driver when it starts, and that IDE driver does not work with AHCI mode. Reverting back to IDE will get the system booting again from the HDD. Detaching the drive ensures that the system doesn't try to boot from it when it fails to boot from the flash drive and automatically falls back to the next available boot device or a saved boot entry.

2. Based on your findings in 1 above (AHCI mode is supported or not), create a Windows 10 20H2 UEFI-bootable media using Rufus and boot from it in the supported mode (IDE or AHCI). If your controller's AHCI mode is the culprit, you should be able to repeatedly reproduce the failure to boot and pnp watchdog bsod using the latest version of Windows 10 media (20H2) as well.

3. Power down, reattach the HDD and boot from the 20H2 flash drive in a supported SATA mode (by now you should be knowing for sure whether both AHCI and IDE mode are supported or not) and start the Windows 10 20H2 installation. Proceed with the setup stages until you reach the "Where to install" stage and see if the HDD is detected. If it is, you can at this point decide to clean install 20H2 or not. Since the 1903 installation on the HDD doesn't have much stuff added to it yet, it'll save you time to clean install 20H2 now instead of an in-place upgrade from 1903 to 20H2.



> just what I want to understand is why it booted successfully when other times it didn't. In the bios I have IDE selected, I had UEFI only selected and the flash drive as the ONLY bootable device. But, it wouldn't successfully boot when I had the two external hard drives connected and the internal hard drive and optical drive connected.
> 
> I hope you won't disregard why, You can (like Stan) choose to help with that or not help, you may think it's not important now that I can reinstall windows it just seems important to me to understand why it worked this time and others times it didn't.


Every extra (storage) device that is present is a potential boot device and gets enumerated as such by the firmware, especially hard drives, and it's not just their physical presence that affects the boot process. Like I explained before, some firmware will save a boot entry for an OS and this entry will persist whether the physical drive that it points to exists or not. Most firmware are configured for fast booting, that is, they don't re-enumerate boot devices each time the system powers up, but instead, they skip to the last internal media that it booted from successfully. They are able to jump straight to that boot device because of a saved boot entry, but if the drive is not physically present, then booting from that saved entry obviously fails. I have come across systems that won't boot from external media UNTIL fast boot is disabled in the BIOS even after selecting the boot media using the manual override boot menu or changing the boot order. One Lenovo Thinkpad notebook gave me a lot of grief with this. It just wouldn't budge even after removing the internal drive! Newer Dell Optiplex 6000 series desktops that come with Ubuntu factory-installed have a boot entry named "Ubuntu" that persists in the boot menu and the system keeps trying to boot from it (with failure of course) even after wiping the Ubuntu drive and installing Windows 10. One of my technicians had a hard time installing Windows 10 on these because each time the system restarted for the first time during the Windows installation, it would try to boot from the non-existent Ubuntu installation instead of resuming Windows 10 setup! It wouldn't budge until that Ubuntu entry was deleted from the boot menu in BIOS.

External drives are notorious for disrupting the boot process of a system. Depending on how the system firmware is engineered, the external drive may get added to the top of the hard drive boot priority list, getting precedence over the internal HDD unless you manually edit this list. When the system tries to boot from that external drive and doesn't find suitable boot code on the drive, it may not move over to the next drive in the priority list. Instead, it may get stuck in a black screen with a blinking cursor, or tell you to insert a system disk and retry, or tell you no operating system was found and so on. The wordings of the message will vary with the system. This is made even worse when the external HDD has an active partition (a partition that has the boot flag set, used in MBR-legacy boot processes). I hope this response answers your query, but if you need more information about system firmware and the boot process, Google is your friend. It's not a coincidence that there are very few system firmware makers. It's no subject for the technically challenged. My very basic understanding of the matter barely scratches the surface of that complicated subject.


----------



## spunk.funk

PC person said:


> I had the two external hard drives connected and the internal hard drive and optical drive connected. it wouldn't successfully boot when I had the two external hard drives connected....and optical drive connected.





Stancestans said:


> External drives are notorious for disrupting the boot process of a system


If one of the External drives has a previous version of Windows or some other Boot files on that drive, the boot process will be altered.
Now that the computer boots to the HDD with the new Windows 10, Shut down and plug in the Optical drive and restart. If that works, shut down and plug in one of the External HDD's, If that works plug in the other External HDD. If the computer won't boot with one of these other devices attached, there is an issue with that device and it should not be used.


----------



## PC person

Ok, so with the hard drive detached, it booted successfully to the flash drive both with IDE and SATA, each time. So we know it's one of the external hard drives or optical drive.

I was trying to pinpoint which external hard drive. I took one of my 4TB hard drives (labeled 4TB2) and plugged it into the same USB 3.0 port that I took it out of, then I turned off and rebooted and went into the BIOS, only the flash drive is showing as a bootable device now even with the external hard drive attached. I wonder why it doesn't show the external hard drive like it did before there, just I would like to find out which one(ones) it is but guessing it has to least show in the BIOS/the bios has to see it.


----------



## spunk.funk

That is correct. If your Bios doesn't see the HDD, either internal or external, then Windows will not see it and it may cause your computer not to boot. 
It sounds like that USB HDD has a bad enclosure or possibly the HDD inside is going bad. You can remove the HDD from the enclosure and try to diagnose from there separate from the enclosure.


----------



## PC person

> It sounds like that USB HDD has a bad enclosure or possibly the HDD inside is going bad. You can remove the HDD from the enclosure and try to diagnose from there separate from the enclosure.


Perhaps, though it was showing up fine in the bios before before I disconnected all devices, and left nothing but the flash drive connected. It still works/is/it's files are viewable if I boot into windows and connect it to USB.

Remember, it's trying to find the cause of why I couldn't boot from the flash drive before. If the external hard drive isn't even showing as a bootable device in the bios, wouldn't the bios have to least see it in order for me to diagnose if there is a problem. You're saying it wouldn't have to show in this bios in order for me to reproduce the BSOD - that doesn't matter? I'd think if it wasn't showing in the bios that would mean it's invisible to/it doesn't come into play, but it looks like you're saying it can happen whether it sees it or not.


----------



## spunk.funk

Take the external and attach it to another computer. You can download *Disk Genius* from my signature and run Diagnostics on it. 
If it doesn't work on a second computer, then removing the HDD from the enclosure, and attaching the drive* internally* to your desktop, or via another USB Adapter, Dock or Enclosure, which will either show the drive or not in the Bios, will confirm if the HDD is at fault or the USB connector inside the USB Enclosure is the issue.


----------



## Stancestans

Once again, you're obsessing over the drive NOT showing up in BIOS (under boot devices?) just like you were with the 2TB drive before installing Windows. What I know from experience is that NOT ALL storage devices will show up in BIOS and this doesn't necessarily mean they are functional or defective. For example, my 3rd gen ProBook (2013 model) doesn't show the SSD (Windows boot drive) anywhere in the BIOS setup screen, but the SSD is obviously fully functional. The original HDD was showing under System Information in BIOS, but not under boot devices. Under boot devices, all I have are generic placeholders like "USB HDD", "Internal HDD", "Upgrade Bay" which refers to the optical drive. When a bootable flash drive is connected, it shows up in boot devices, but only if it has been formatted to be bootable. Likewise, a defective drive may show up in BIOS. In short, the drive showing up in BIOS or NOT, does not form a reliable basis for determining whether it is defective or not. Its physical presence is a better basis for troubleshooting.


----------



## PC person

I went ahead and restored the full acronis backup I made before reinstalling windows (don't worry I can always reformat again) so we could see what version of windows 10 I had before the I reinstalled it (plus it's starting up a lot faster now then before it), it's windows 10 version 2004 OS build 19041.928


----------



## spunk.funk

You are not too far behind, just check in Windows Update for the next big upgrade


----------

