# Chandelier Restoration



## Solidify

All 6 of these fixtures flicker randomly. 


































I had my electrician friend come take a look and he only had time to look at the first chandelier in the hallway but he confirmed that the wiring in the home is fine (including the neutral, whatever that means). He also confirmed that the bulbs are fine and he tightened the sockets terminals and screws. Then he installed a temporary fixture since we removed the chandelier. This confirmed that the wiring in the chandelier is faulty. With that being said, he suggested that rewiring the chandeliers (and possibly the other fixtures would fix the issue) since there are all original antique fixtures from when the home was built in 1972. He looked at the wires inside the chandelier's housing and confirmed that some were very stiff (what he termed as a sign of wear) and others were still flimsy, which is why some bulbs work.

He told me to go buy 18 AWG stranded wire (2 conductors) to rewire the arms of the chandelier and to purchase 16 AWG stranded wire (2 conductors also) to replace the wiring in the stem of the chandelier. I bought the 18 AWG stranded wire today but fishing it through the chandelier arms is near impossible. I even tried this:

How to wire a chandelier arm / push wire lamp holder terminals - YouTube

I just can't get the new wire more than halfway through any of the chandelier arms before it gets stuck at the bend. 

To make matters worst, I told my electrician this, and he just suggested switching the arms to 22 AWG stranded wire and using 14 AWG wire for the neck of the chandelier. I'm a bit skeptical of the protocol he's using to decide which wires are safe to carry the amperage through my chandelier, so I'm writing this for supplemental guidance. My friend is only an apprentice electrician.

On the left of the following image is the new wire; on the right is the old wire that came from the chandelier arm (Don't mind that the wire on the right seems to have a slightly thinner bundle of stranded conductors... this is because I tore them off the socket terminals. If you cut and re-strip the old wire, there's just as much stranded wire as contained in the new wire on the left of the image, confirming that the old wire is, indeed, also 18 AWG.)










It seems like depsite them both being 18 AWG, the new one has more insulation.


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## Basementgeek

They have to be pulled through, not pushed. If you can push them half way, you can pull
them through. Yes, it can be hard and requiring soldering a single wire to pull them through. 

BG


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## SpywareDr

1) Securely tape/solder/fasten the new wire to the end of the old wire.

2) Now pulling the old wire out, should (theoretically) pull the new wire through.

--

You could also try the same with string. Attach it to the old wire, pull the old 
wire pulls the string through, attach the string to the new wire, pull the string 
back through to pull the new wire in.


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## Vegassparky

The type of insulation surrounding the new wire should be printed on the cable itself, or listed on the packaging. Type TFFN, and TFN, are most commonly used(and legal per NEC). Article 402 covers fixture wires, and states none shall be smaller than18ga. That would be minimum to each arm. For the larger wire(if the smaller are made up to one), you don't want to have anything smaller than what the combined load of all the lamps will be(wattage/voltage=amperage). Don't cut the rating of that new wire too close. Planning for 60wt lamps is typical. A dedicated fixture store, or supply house should have the proper type of wire for your project. 

Getting the new wire installed is an exercise in patience. Blowing a thread through with a can of air usually works if the wire has already been pulled out. A tiny amount of liquid soap will help the new wire slide through. You may have to push on one end, while pulling on the other.


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## kendallt

Salad oil or dish soap works as a lube for pulling, can often feed one wire through, then use it to pull the double strand. 
As mentioned, it's easier to use the old wire to pull the new, squirt dish soap or oil in before you start pulling. 
Don't use a petroleum base oil as it may affect the insulation.
Keep hot/negative wires separate. Should be ridges on the hot side of the insulation for the zip cord. It's not hypercritical on lights, but good practice to get into.


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## Vegassparky

Actually, the ridges are typically on the neutral wire, and the hot is smooth. We electricians have a way to remind ourselves what's what, but it's NSFW.

It is good practice to keep the polarity correct. You don't want to energize the screw base of a lampholder, or cause potential problems if LEDs/CFLs ever get installed.


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## kendallt

Ah, keep getting that mixed up, thanks for clearing it up!


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## Solidify

> soldering a single wire to pull them through


OMG that's genius.. I'll solder the new wires to the old wires that are still in the arms and then just pull them through! but what about the 2 chandelier arms that the old wire came out completely by accident?



> 1) Securely tape/solder/fasten the new wire to the end of the old wire.


yea thats been my prob, securely taping requires an amount of tape that will be too thick to pass through the arm.. and if i put less tape it will pass through but the second it jams and i pull a bit harder the less tape wont be enough to hold the wires together and they'll come apart.. i think the soldering it the best idea bc it gives the strongest hold with the least bulge that can pass through the chandelier arm



> Blowing a thread through with a can of air usually works if the wire has already been pulled out. A tiny amount of liquid soap will help the new wire slide through. You may have to push on one end, while pulling on the other.


ok thanks vegas ill try that.

this is the wire i bought for the lamp arms, someone said no smaller than 18AWG so i should be fine!


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## Solidify

solder didnt hold. either the solder wasnt hot neough or im not using the right solder wire.. either way, geting fustrated with this. might just bring it to a shop to get rewired. well see


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## Basementgeek

Solder was not hot enough.

BG


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## SpywareDr

Either that or not clean enough.

This kind of job takes patience. (Been there . . .)


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## Solidify

i have the least patience in the world lol ill try again tomorrow. i only have lead-free plumbing solder.. will my solder gun be able to melt that solder or will i need to buy the thinner solder wire.. because ive never soldered before and have noted that theres soldering for plumbing and soldering for electronics, etc.


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## SpywareDr

How to Solder Properly


> Solder: Solder is the main material when it comes to soldering. It is a mixture of metals that is used as the "glue" between two points/wires/whatever is being connected. There are multiple types of solder that can include various metals, but
> 
> solder made of tin and lead is typical electrical solder.​
> Flux: Flux is the complement of solder and is used as a flowing agent. Without flux soldering would be practically impossible. This is because unlike glue when soldering connections together there is actually a chemical reaction occurring between the metals that are being joined and the solder. Flux acts as the catalyst in this reaction and is essential for soldering. It typically comes as a paste, liquid, or liquid in a pen. I strongly recommend using paste flux. Flux pens don't work that well, and I feel that paste flux is easier to work with than liquid. Just apply a small blob of flux to the point, or on both wires if you are soldering two together, so that there is a thin coating of flux on the joint and then solder away. It is pretty hard to go wrong with flux so almost any brand is fine.


Google images: electrical wiring solder

Google: electrical wiring solder


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## Solidify

great guide spyware thanks for that but after buying electrical solder that is both acid and lead free, i tried heating up the wire with my solder gun and no matter how long i keep the solder gun held against the wire's conductor, it will not heat up enough to melt the solder once i make the solder touch the conductor. the only way the solder wire melts is when i make the solder wire directly touch the solder gun. im just not getting the hang of this.


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## SpywareDr

1) You want lead, it melts easy. 2) Clean the tip of the gun. 3) Use flux.

Follow the examples show in the images. Twist the wire together, flux and solder. If it's not getting hot enough, you need a hotter soldering gun.


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## oscer1

The Flux is the key hear. It helps solder flow and it also helps bond the solder to the wire. Reminds me when trying to solder a wire on to a battery without the Flux would not adhear to battery put a dab of Flux works wonders.


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## Basementgeek

Don't worry about lead free, as you, I hope, are not going to be sucking on it. I always use the lead.

BG


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## Solidify

ill give it a shot with the flux again another time


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## Basementgeek

Those little pencil soldering irons can't do the job. Just not big enough for 18ga wire.

BG


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## Solidify

FLUX, that changes everything! i managed to solder the old wire to the new wire and pull the new wire through the arms. the new wire is 18 AWG stranded. now i just need to go buy 3ft of 16 AWG stranded wire for the body of the chandelier and also to join all these connections together.. atleast i think i need 16 awg, thats what my electrician friend told me. he also said to join all the white wires from the arms to one conductor and all the black wires from the arms to the other conductor in the body of the chandelier but these new 18 awg wires arent color coded, and neither were the old ones and yet they were still tied up like that (1 from each arm)


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## Solidify

I read somewhere that because I'm using these types of sockets (attached), it actually does matter which conductor from the arms goes to which wire in the ceiling as well as on the socket.



> If the fixture uses regular Edison based bulbs (the screw in type) then the outer shell is connected to the neutral (white) wire and the button at the bottom of the light socket is connected to the hot (black) wire.
> 
> If you look carefully at the cord one side will have ridges along the jacket.
> This is the neutral and should be connected to the white wire.


Source: Replacing light fixture--no white or black wires - Electrical Wiring Forum - GardenWeb

I see those ridges every so slightly on my new wire. So, to be clear and safe, one end of all those wires with the ridges have to connect to the silver screw on my sockets, and the other end of all those ridged wires has to connect to white conductor on that new 16 awg wire im going to buy?


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## Solidify

so I did some reading and found out the the 18 AWG wire im using in my chandelier arms is good but its recommended to use 14 AWG wire for the body of the chandelier to tie them all up and bring it to the ceiling. the questions i have though are:

-do i need to buy 14 AWG stranded or solid (can both be used)?
-the lights are on a 15 ampere circuit
-when i buy the 14 AWG stranded or solid wire, does it need to have a ground in it? because the one i removed did not have a ground but i believe i saw a ground terminal screw in the box in the ceiling when my electrician friend removed the chandelier from the ceiling. if i do need 14 awg with ground, would that be 14/2 or 14/3?.. just wanna know what i need to buy. and if i do need the ground wire, where would the other end of it attach to inside the chandelier? there's no terminal to ground the ground wire to inisde the chandelier itself which leads me to assume it cant be grounded. for what it's worth, the box in my ceiling is already metal
-the chandelier has 6 arms, each socket says "125V/75W" on it and the bulbs i am using are spread across these "120V60W", "130V40W" and "120V25W", but i do plan to buy some led candelabra bulbs in the near future

would love some help with this! thanks everyone


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## oscer1

from your pictures hook all the wire that are connected to the silver screw go together and the wires on the brass color screws go together. the incoming ground wire connects to box no need to hook a ground to fixture since the fixture is metel and your fastening it to the metal box the fram of the light is the ground.


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## Basementgeek

You need 14/2 with ground. I would use solid as it is easier to work with.

BG


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## Solidify

14/2 with solid, ok, that's what i'll buy. 

oscer, 



> hook all the wire that are connected to the silver screw go together and the wires on the brass color screws go together.


i did that, waiting to buy the 14/2 to tie it all together. 



> the incoming ground wire connects to box no need to hook a ground to fixture since the fixture is metel and your fastening it to the metal box the fram of the light is the ground.


can you reexplain the above i dont understand


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## oscer1

ok the wires that come from breaker or wall switch to chandelier the ground wire gets hooked to the green screw in box no ground wire from chandelier. the chandelier is the ground. that acts like the ground wire.


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## Solidify

ok so then why do you think bg suggested 14/2 with ground? do you think he was not aware my chandelier is metal?


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## oscer1

you wont need a ground from the chandelier to the juction box. its how they where made back then without ground wires. most fixtures today have a ground wire built in.


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## Solidify

so i can buy 14/2 wire WITHOUT ground?


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## oscer1

you can but might want to check the code in your area. they might require you to add a ground to the chandelier


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## Solidify

This is the shop I frequent to get my wire at cheaper prices. Will this one due? I wanted beige since it will show through the chain links:


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## Vegassparky

You can make up the arm conductors to the main feed with wire nuts in the base. If the chandelier hangs off of any length of chain(I can't see the pics on mobile app) then use 14ga(16 ga will usually suffice) stranded fixture wire/cord from the ceiling canopy to the base(where the arms will make up). For grounding, typically a separate, bare, stranded ground wire will be run from the canopy( made to the metal mounting bracket/feed ground wire), and mechanically bonded to the base(sandwiched between any metal nut in the base). No solid wire should be used. Its woven through the chain with the feed cord for aesthetics. You can not rely solely on a chain for bonding, as it has limited contact area, and finishes may insulate the canopy from the base. 

Glad you figured out the flux. I have a killer 20w fine tip soldering iron, with a boost button that bumps it up to 100wts. It's great for delicate work, and it's a beast on larger conductors. 

This is what happens when you hold the button for a minute or so. LOL


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## Solidify

so if i understand:

-i should use 14/2 WITH a ground since the breaks in the chains connecting the chandelier to the ficture will make it probable that there wont be the best grounding.. makes sense. but then i still dont get how the other end of the grounding conductor from the 14/2 wire attaches to the chandelier?

- i just realized i don't think 14 awg will work for the middle of the chandelier bc it was a pain just to get this 18awg through the chandelier arms, which are the same diameter at the metal tubbing that im going to need to fish the middle cable throgh. ill bring a piece of metal tubbing to the shop the day i go to see if the 14-2 wire passes... if not, i will get 16-2, since i have no choice. but i will definitely not go any lowet than 16/2 for the center... since clearly you've said that would be sufficient


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## Basementgeek

Don't use speaker wire !

BG


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## Solidify

bg, but then i cant find any electrical wire that is beige.. bc it will show. especially since i might not to get 16 awg now since im now sure if 14/2 will fit through the center


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## Vegassparky

Do the math, Solidify.  Multiply 60wts x number of fixture bases /120volts to find the total amperage of fixture. That will tell you the proper size of wire for the feed from the canopy to base.

You'll want a 2 wire stranded fixture cable/cord for the feed. I've never seen an actual fixture cable for a chandelier that had a ground included, and I've hung a lot of crazy chandeliers. The supply shop should also carry bare wire for grounding. Attach one end of the bare wire under an arm nut in the base, and let it hang out the top of the base with the feed wire. Mount the ceiling bracket, determine the finished height of fixture, and cut chain(if necessary). Hang the fixture, weave the feed wire and ground up through chain, and feed through canopy and threaded tube in mounting bracket. Make up feed and ground in ceiling j box, and turn on to test. If it checks out, install the canopy to cover bracket and ceiling box.


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## Vegassparky

If you can't find beige, use a feed cord with clear insulation. That will blend in fine with the beige.


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## kendallt

Use the ridges on the insulation, one wire will be smooth, one will have ridges that run full length of the insulation.
Go by what Vegas said, the ridges will be the 'white' wire, the smooth is the 'black'.


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## Solidify

> Attach one end of the bare wire under an arm nut in the base[\quote]
> 
> What do u mean by this
> 
> And i have 60 watts x 6 bulbs = 360
> 
> 360/120v= 3 ampere fixture


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## Vegassparky

The arms should have hex nuts that attach them to the central base. You can use that as a bonding point by loosening one of the nuts, wrapping the bare wire once around the threads, and tightening the nut back up. Once the other end is attached up top, that should provide an adequate ground path from the canopy to the lower portion. An 18ga feed wire from the bottom of the fixture should be fine with a load of 3A. Per NEC, 18ga is rated for 6A in this specific application(interior of fixture). Your bare ground wire should be the same size.


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## Basementgeek

In an ideal world yes, but there are other factors to take into consideration. Wire size, length of wire affect the total draw.

BG


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## SpywareDr

Solidify said:


> he also said to join all the white wires from the arms to one conductor and all the black wires from the arms to the other conductor in the body of the chandelier but these new 18 awg wires arent color coded, and neither were the old ones and yet they were still tied up like that (1 from each arm)


You can usually identify the neutral side of lamp cord wire just by looking for markings along one of the wires, and the other wire would be the hot. These surface markings can be a ridge, a groove or a painted stripe along the surface of one side of the lamp cord. With transparent cord the hot wire is copper colored, and the neutral is silver colored.


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## Solidify

Yup i managed to identify which wire is hot and which is the neutral and screwed them into the sockets appropriately. So if ive understood, bc my fixture will use 3Ampere, if the 14 AWG wire doesnt fit, i can use 18awg for the body without a danger?


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## SpywareDr

Yes, 18 awg is fine. In those short runs it is good for up to at least 6 amps.


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## Solidify

Ok, so ill go see if 14 awg solid or stranded fits first then if not ill just use the same 18 awg stranded to bridge all the arms together and run the neck of the chandelier. Ill keep you all posted of course


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## Solidify

the store didnt have 14/2 solid or stranded, so i just used my 18/2 for the body and:










me testing it with a lamp cord bc i didnt have help to hang it:

thank you everyone, once again!!! now onto the second chandelier.


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## SpywareDr

Congrats, looks you did it!


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## Solidify

Hanging it will be a pain. I tried doing it with my sis cuz shes the only one home but she couldnt hold it long enough for me to make the connections in the box up top.


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## SpywareDr

Try using coat hanger wire (or similar) to temporarily hang it from the J-box in the ceiling.


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## kendallt

For heavier fixtures I often use long screws with washers and nuts, 2.5 to even 4 inches long to hold them up while I connect the wires. just thread them through the base and into the box, connect wires, then push straight up and spin the nuts up to hold it in position while you swap in the correct screws one at a time. 
It keeps everything in position so there's no hunting to line the holes up and no strain holding it.

Should see me do the medallions, I have a hard hat with a padded lazy susan base mounted to it so I can hold them up with my head and keep both hands free


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## Vegassparky

What about your ground wire? Are you reading all the replies, or just skimming them?


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## Solidify

sorry vegas, yes i read your reply about the ground.. proof of that is that i asked how to attach the ground wire to the hex nut. but im going to take a chance and rely on the chain links to ground the fixture to the already grounded ceiling box. its been like that for 40 or so years and weve never had a problem. i understand the risk and am fully aware, but i couldn't find any 18 awg bare wire at the store (unless i could have simply stripped some from 18-2 stranded and used that.. in which case it's too late, and i dont wanna disassemble it again).. but rest assured, im reading everything.

if ever i change my mind i can add it.


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## Solidify

so i tried rewiring the second chandelier and every part was either falling or breaking off so i just bought a new one and installed it today. this one came with a ground wire thankfully and i installed with that ground as it was intended to be installed, so thats reassuring. heres a look at the finished product of both the new one i installed today and the rewired old antique chandelier (which i will eventually add a ground wire to using some excess ground wire i saved from the new chandelier). ill just keep the banged up chandelier for parts to supply the first antique chandelier and other fixtures that ill rewire eventually:


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## SpywareDr

Looking good. :smile:


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## Solidify

Thanks spywaredr, as well as to everyone that helped me, eapecially Vegas!


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## Vegassparky

You're eapecially welcome, Solidify. LOL Just trying to help. We want to see you succeed. I'll still say, omitting grounds is a bad practice. 

Lights on. Good job.


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## Solidify

Technically I didn't omit the ground, the box is grounded and the chain link is connected to the box. So in theory, the ground is there, I'm just relying on a connection that I shouldn't. Besides, my electrician installed his temporary fixture without the ground because he saw the box was already grounded also. But yes, you're right: it is good practice to install grounds and I'll continue to go by that. Thanks again everyone!


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