# Are certs necessary?



## everlastin777 (Jul 1, 2012)

Hey guys...I was looking for some advice. I just finished my education which is a Bachelor of Science Information Technology and a Masters of Business in IT. It was an expensive choice. Now I have been working for a while in a crappy helpdesk type of role. I want to get another job as a network admin or a sys admin but times are hard. Employers are not happy with my CV. What do I have to do to get calls from companies? Are certs like CCNA or CCENT necessary or is it for people with no IT academic credentials?


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

first of all no qualifications are required but do help, experience is what counts.

Certifications are not required but can help *BUT* certifications are designed to show your experience level so certs like CCENT and the CCNA are for people who work with CISCO kit not for someone who wants to work with CISCO kit.

You should be looking for entry level certs such as compTIA A+, compTIA Network+ and Microsofts 70-680.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

Certifications are required by some employers, but not all. Still, they can help you look more attractive even when they're not required.

That said, GBL is right: certifications are designed to show employers what you have experience doing, NOT what you want to start doing. So getting Cisco certifications without having Cisco experience isn't likely to help you.

What you need to do is to get a desktop administrator job in a domain environment. Eventually, your supervisors should allow you to start doing some basic server administration, which will eventually help you to make a move to a proper server admin position. Once you do that, you'll probably be in a good position to help out doing light network administration, eventually progressing to a network admin role.

One step at a time...


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## everlastin777 (Jul 1, 2012)

thanx GBL...but compTIA A+, compTIA Network+ and Microsofts 70-680. I think its all basic stuff which I already know...combined with my IT educational background...i dont think i need to do it all over again. 

thanx Boson....the problem is the place that i work doesnt have a domain environment. no AD and no exchange server no nothing. its not an IT company so im stuck in this section. there is a dell server with a sql database thats updated via replication from their different branches.there is a guy who takes care of the SQL side. All i take care of is the hardware and networking side of our company. just a few smalltime LANS. no VLANS none of that stuff. Im trying to sell whatever limited experience I got within the last year but companies dont want none of it.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

If you dont need to learn it then passing the exams should be easy.


Having those certs will make things look better for you when you apply for jobs where you will get to work in a domain environment. Going for the Big certs straight away is not a good idea as you do not have the experience that those certs are designed to backup.

For instance the MCSE requires you to have 12-18 months in a systems engineer type position where as the A+ and N+ require you to have very little experience.


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## everlastin777 (Jul 1, 2012)

greenbrucelee said:


> If you dont need to learn it then passing the exams should be easy.
> 
> 
> Having those certs will make things look better for you when you apply for jobs where you will get to work in a domain environment. Going for the Big certs straight away is not a good idea as you do not have the experience that those certs are designed to backup.
> ...




guess i will have to listen to the big boys. alright man. im gonna study for a+ and network+. and then maybe even security+


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

everlastin777 said:


> thanx GBL...but compTIA A+, compTIA Network+ and Microsofts 70-680. I think its all basic stuff which I already know...combined with my IT educational background...i dont think i need to do it all over again.


Certification isn't designed for you to learn new stuff... certification is to show employers what you already know. That said, you will likely learn new things while you study, even if you've been in IT for a while. 



everlastin777 said:


> thanx Boson....the problem is the place that i work doesnt have a domain environment. no AD and no exchange server no nothing.


So... get a job in a place that does have a domain environment. See, the problem is that you're trying unsuccessfully to jump two or three steps up the IT career ladder, yet you are unwilling to take the step _right in front of you_... which is a job as a desktop admin or PC tech where you can administer PCs in a domain environment.



everlastin777 said:


> Im trying to sell whatever limited experience I got within the last year but companies dont want none of it.


That's because you don't yet have experience. And those companies realize it. You need to get that experience, and you can do so by following the advice I gave, above.

Hey, if you want to get a bunch of advanced certifications, by all means, do so. I'm a big believer in certifications - if I weren't, I wouldn't have left my job as a senior network admin to create certification practice exam content. But I'm trying to tell you that companies (those with any sense, anyway) won't hire people without experience just because they've passed a few tests. 

Put yourself in the employer's shoes... if you were looking for someone to administer your servers or secure your network, would you hire someone with a bunch of certifications and only helpdesk experience, or would you hire someone who had actually done some server and network administration before?

Get experience... move up. One step at a time.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

everlastin777 said:


> guess i will have to listen to the big boys. alright man. im gonna study for a+ and network+. and then maybe even security+


Hold off on Security+ until you've got some experience under your belt. Per CompTIA:



> Recommended experience: CompTIA Network+ certification and *two years of technical networking experience, with an emphasis on security*.


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## Adam31R (Apr 8, 2012)

The college I currently attend is a Cisco Academy member and basis its curriculum on what Cisco provides. My classes prep for the certs without exp. Interesting to see the great advice here but it makes me wonder why my school prepares me for A+, Net+, Security+, CCNA and MCSA before I graduate.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

preparing is one thing being certified beyond your experience is another.

There are many training providers and schools out there that will teach and let you take any exam you want aslong as you pay the cash they want. These places often don't care what happens to you all they are interested in is your money.

learning any certification is good but if getting certified beyond your experience can be a bad thing.


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## Adam31R (Apr 8, 2012)

greenbrucelee said:


> preparing is one thing being certified beyond your experience is another.
> 
> There are many training providers and schools out there that will teach and let you take any exam you want aslong as you pay the cash they want. These places often don't care what happens to you all they are interested in is your money.
> 
> learning any certification is good but if getting certified beyond your experience can be a bad thing.


I'm at a community college, although they might profit from the tests, the reduced costs at our testing facility suggests little profit. As long as your majoring in CNT at my school, all exams are 1/2 off.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

Adam31R said:


> The college I currently attend is a Cisco Academy member and basis its curriculum on what Cisco provides. My classes prep for the certs without exp. Interesting to see the great advice here but it makes me wonder why my school prepares me for A+, Net+, Security+, CCNA and MCSA before I graduate.


I would guess that it's because the school either doesn't know any better, or they know better and simply want to fill out their curriculum.



Adam31R said:


> I'm at a community college, although they might profit from the tests, the reduced costs at our testing facility suggests little profit. As long as your majoring in CNT at my school, all exams are 1/2 off.


You're attending their college; that alone is profit for them.


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## Adam31R (Apr 8, 2012)

BosonMichael said:


> I would guess that it's because the school either doesn't know any better, or they know better and simply want to fill out their curriculum.
> 
> You're attending their college; that alone is profit for them.


True enough indeed


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## jakesonu (Jun 26, 2012)

BosonMichael said:


> Put yourself in the employer's shoes... if you were looking for someone to administer your servers or secure your network, would you hire someone with a bunch of certifications and only helpdesk experience, or would you hire someone who had actually done some server and network administration before?


But what if the experience is equal? Wouldn't the certs be the tie breaker? Say a company is looking for an entry-level noc technician. If there's two applicants with similar help desk experience, wouldn't the guy with a CCNA look better to the company. It shows that you have some familiarity with Cisco commands and you would be easier to train than somebody who doesn't have their CCNA. Why is the comparison always between an entry-level tech vs an experienced IT professional? Experienced IT professionals aren't exactly lining up for a $13/hour NOC technician position.

Also, I always see it mentioned that degrees and certs are not required to get into IT. Without an IT degree or any IT certs in your resume, how are you suppose to get your first IT job? There are those with college degrees and certifications looking at the same entry-level jobs that you are looking at. Why would a recruiter/HR/IT manager pick you over them?


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

I dont have a degree and I work in IT, experience counts the most certs are designed to backup that experience.

Someone with cisco experience should go for certs like CCENT and CCNA but someone who has messed in a few labs and read a few books should not.


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## jakesonu (Jun 26, 2012)

OK, I get that experience counts the most. But, what if you don't have experience? No experience, no degree, no certs. How would you get your first IT job?


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

entry level by default means you dont need experience but are will to learn. There are places that will take you on. Sometimes these positions are labelled Trainee.

I have a few IT qualifications but it didn't get me anywhere but that was partly my fault because I was applying for positions beyond my experience level because I falsly believed that qualifications go you places in IT.

Once I had a bit of experience and was guided into doing entry level certs and applying for entry level positions I got an IT job.

a degree and no experience vs no experience and an IT qualification or two puts you in the same boat.

If I was in a hiring position I would hire the guy with no qualifications and enthusiasm over the guy with a degree and thinks he knows more than he does which is typically what you find with graduates.


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## epshatto (Dec 23, 2010)

No experience, no degree, no certs does not = no job.

You can get an entry level job (usually help desk) without any prior experience or certs. You need to know what you're doing and talking about however, obviously.

You can increase your chances of getting an entry level job by getting entry level certs (particular A+, Network+ and MCTS 70-680).

Once you have those certs and experience you can go for slightly more advanced certs that pertain to what you're doing professionally.


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## jakesonu (Jun 26, 2012)

I guess it depends on the location too, but if you look at job listings, entry-level does not mean 0 experience. It is common to see entry-level listings that require 2+ years experience and a few certs or education. There are internships out there but most of them require you to be in college.

Enthusiasm is great but your resume with no experience, no certs, no degree will be ignored no matter how enthusiastic you are. Let's think realistically here. You have to pass through a recruiter or HR before you're looked at by the IT Manager. The market is so saturated with people trying get a job in IT that somebody with no experience, certs, or degree will not even get a second look.



> You can get an entry level job (usually help desk) without any prior experience or certs. You need to know what you're doing and talking about however, obviously.


How? What would you put in your resume that would make a company want to bring you in for an interview if you have no experience or certs.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

jakesonu said:


> But what if the experience is equal? Wouldn't the certs be the tie breaker?


Yes, certs could indeed be a tie breaker.



jakesonu said:


> Say a company is looking for an entry-level noc technician. If there's two applicants with similar help desk experience, wouldn't the guy with a CCNA look better to the company. It shows that you have some familiarity with Cisco commands and you would be easier to train than somebody who doesn't have their CCNA.


That'd be good... if NOC jobs were typically given to people without experience. Problem is, entry-level jobs don't usually have anything to do with Cisco device administration, and in those cases, a CCNA would do you more harm than good. After all, an employer with an entry-level job just wants an entry-level tech... not someone who wants to work on Cisco routers (the same reason why McDonalds doesn't hire people with college degrees to be fry cooks). You'd be seen as too expensive and as a "flight risk" - as soon as something Cisco-related comes along, you'll bail, leaving the employer to find, hire, and train someone all over again. So... instead of being given a chance, your resume gets put in the "NO" stack.

Overcertifying beyond your experience level is not a good idea.



jakesonu said:


> Why is the comparison always between an entry-level tech vs an experienced IT professional? Experienced IT professionals aren't exactly lining up for a $13/hour NOC technician position.


If you know of a company who is hiring entry-level techs for NOC positions, by all means, certify away!



jakesonu said:


> Also, I always see it mentioned that degrees and certs are not required to get into IT. Without an IT degree or any IT certs in your resume, how are you suppose to get your first IT job? There are those with college degrees and certifications looking at the same entry-level jobs that you are looking at. Why would a recruiter/HR/IT manager pick you over them?


Without experience, you're supposed to look for and get an entry-level job - a job that requires no experience to get hired. A degree and certifications (ENTRY-LEVEL!!!) can certainly make you look more attractive and can help you get hired, but, like I said, they're not _required_.

For what its worth, there are people WITH experience who are looking at those entry-level jobs too, and they're willing to work for less in this bad economy. It's currently an employer's market. What that means is that it's gonna be difficult for entry-level techs to get started in IT. Just a fact of life, man... many people are currently switching careers to IT because they believe it to be lucrative... which is causing a glut of people flooding the entry-level IT market. You're gonna have to be patient, persistent, and diligent. Make getting a job your full-time job, and keep at it.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

jakesonu said:


> I guess it depends on the location too, but if you look at job listings, entry-level does not mean 0 experience.


"Entry-level", by its very definition, does indeed mean "no experience". An ENTRY-level job is a job in which you ENTER the career field. If you have experience, you have already ENTERED the career field.



jakesonu said:


> It is common to see entry-level listings that require 2+ years experience and a few certs or education.


Although those are jobs that YOU might perceive to be "entry-level" jobs, they are not, because they _require experience_.

Without experience, you need to find an entry-level job that doesn't require experience. It's really that simple, cut, and dried.



jakesonu said:


> Enthusiasm is great but your resume with no experience, no certs, no degree will be ignored no matter how enthusiastic you are. Let's think realistically here. You have to pass through a recruiter or HR before you're looked at by the IT Manager. The market is so saturated with people trying get a job in IT that somebody with no experience, certs, or degree will not even get a second look.
> 
> How? What would you put in your resume that would make a company want to bring you in for an interview if you have no experience or certs.


I would get entry-level certifications and apply for entry-level jobs (jobs that require no experience).

Know what else I would do? I would meet people who are already in the IT industry and find out from them when positions at their companies come available. Might just be able to work a personal connection to get hired. In fact, that's exactly how I got my start in IT: I had lunch with a former co-worker/sales rep who invited a tech from his new employer. The tech said they were looking for a tech. The sales rep knew me and my skills, so he recommended me for the position.


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## jakesonu (Jun 26, 2012)

Have you looked at the job market lately? There are no entry-level jobs that doesn't require experience. I've even seen internships that require experience. Like you said, this is an employer's market. So why would they advertise for someone without experience, when there are people who are more qualified that's willing to take the job?

I know about the flight-risk thing, but that's a risk for any company where there's no room for growth. No tech dreams of being in help desk all their life. A lot of them wants to be systems/network administrators/engineers. They will move on as soon as somebody offers them a better job.

If you think a CCNA or MCITP can hurt your chances getting an entry-level job, then don't put it on your resume.


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## Adam31R (Apr 8, 2012)

A majority of the positions I see here in Phoenix require a BS in Computer Science. I want to email these recruiters and let them know that CS is geared more towards software engineering and that they should recruit CIS majors if a BS is a big deal. Point is, lots of companies down here want a 4 year or equiv experience.


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## jakesonu (Jun 26, 2012)

Also,



> certifications are designed to show employers what you have experience doing, NOT what you want to start doing





> I would get entry-level certifications and apply for entry-level jobs (jobs that require no experience).


Shouldn't you have experience repairing PCs before getting your A+, networking experience before getting your Network+, experience supporting Windows 7 before getting 70-680.

That statement is what I have an issue with. If certifications are designed to show employers what you have experience doing, then a person without experience will not have certifictions and in turn will not get a job in IT.

If the person doesn't have experience, saying certs are not required is absolutely wrong. Good luck landing an interview for an entry-level job without experience and certs.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

jakesonu said:


> Have you looked at the job market lately? There are no entry-level jobs that doesn't require experience.


Then there are no entry-level jobs currently available, period, because entry-level jobs don't require experience.



jakesonu said:


> I've even seen internships that require experience. Like you said, this is an employer's market. So why would they advertise for someone without experience, when there are people who are more qualified that's willing to take the job?


Because experienced techs are typically more expensive to hire. If they can get experienced people for cheap, they're probably going to. If they can't, then they'll pay someone without experience to do the job for that cost. 



jakesonu said:


> I know about the flight-risk thing, but that's a risk for any company where there's no room for growth. No tech dreams of being in help desk all their life. A lot of them wants to be systems/network administrators/engineers. They will move on as soon as somebody offers them a better job.


Yes, good techs will eventually move on. But someone with advanced certifications, advanced degrees, or experience are far more likely to get those better jobs; thus, they will move on much quicker than someone who doesn't have them.



jakesonu said:


> If you think a CCNA or MCITP can hurt your chances getting an entry-level job, then don't put it on your resume.


Right. But something tells me you're not convinced.


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## epshatto (Dec 23, 2010)

> Shouldn't you have experience repairing PCs before getting your A+, networking experience before getting your Network+, experience supporting Windows 7 before getting 70-680.


I didn't. I got my A+ certification before ever having an IT job. 

You do not need to have a certification _before getting_ a job. What of the scenario where you can be hired but must commit to obtaining a cert at a later date? 

I see jobs for help desk positions where the _only requirement is a high school diploma._

Certifications can make it easier to get these jobs but they are not guarantees that you will nor do they mean that every single employee in that position necessarily has to have such a cert.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

jakesonu said:


> Shouldn't you have experience repairing PCs before getting your A+, networking experience before getting your Network+, experience supporting Windows 7 before getting 70-680.


These certifications are commonly referred to as entry-level certifications. Although it is helpful to have experience before getting those certifications, it is not necessary.



jakesonu said:


> That statement is what I have an issue with. If certifications are designed to show employers what you have experience doing, then a person without experience will not have certifictions and in turn will not get a job in IT.


If you will read the other posts on this forum carefully, you'll find that we suggest that it is the higher-level certifications that require experience, and entry-level certifications (such as the A+, Network+, and Windows client certs) do not.



jakesonu said:


> If the person doesn't have experience, saying certs are not required is absolutely wrong. Good luck landing an interview for an entry-level job without experience and certs.


Jake, you're awfully argumentative for someone who hasn't spent a day in IT. You seem to have it all figured out, yet we who have worked for years in IT, some of whom have been involved in the very hiring processes we are discussing, must somehow be wrong. :ermm:

Further, you're either misinterpreting (accidentally or intentionally) what we are saying, or you're simply not reading it. When I say that "certifications are not required" for most entry-level jobs, I mean exactly what I say. That doesn't mean that someone without certifications will get the job. That doesn't mean certifications can't help you get the job. That means that most employers do not require certifications for entry-level jobs. 

In short... "certifications are not required" does NOT mean "certifications are not desired". Two totally different things.


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