# Is this a good gaming rig?



## Death

I'm kind of low budget, and I live in Canada, so this is what I could get:

http://www.icct.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=191&products_id=1227 - Motherboard - $111.99.
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=19784 - Central Processing Unit - $139.99.
http://www.razorcomputers.ca/product_info.php?cPath=16_37&products_id=13018 - Random Access Memory - 81.69.
http://www.pccanada.com/viewitem.asp?id=5412 - Video card - $189.99.
http://www.cendirect.com/main_en/tech_specs.asp?rPart_no=UE02821D&bhcp=1 - Hard Drive - $88.00.
http://www.infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=309976 - Power Supply Unit - $39.00.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=14040DR3348&vpn=SH-S183L/BEBM&manufacture=SAMSUNG - DVD Burner - $42.90.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC3485&vpn=RC-330&manufacture=COOLERMASTER - Case - $39.15.

Is it good enough to play most games? Can you give an example of a high-end game that I could play and what FPS I should get, using what settings?


----------



## TheMatt

Hi,:wave:

All good but the PSU. You can tell that it will be low quality just from the generic title. You should be looking at a 600w - 650w PSU here. I would take a look at the FSP 600w or the Antec Trio 650w.


----------



## ebackhus

The PSU also gave a red flag with me. You don't want to skimp out on what is essentially the heart of your PC.

All around I'd say you have good picks. I'm wary of the ASUS boards, though, having gone through two in a VERY short time. The 4600+ is a wicked fast chip and I'm sure you'll enjoy the power it has. Be sure to get AMD's dual-core optimizer! I'm more of an nVidia fan so I can't say how good the X1950 is, but I've never heard complaints about it either.

With standard mid-range settings in most games you can expect 60+ FPS. Some very new titles may give it a bit too much to handle.


----------



## Death

Are you sure a 500W won't do? Here is an updated list:

http://www.icct.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=191&products_id=1227 - Motherboard - $111.99.
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=19784 - Central Processing Unit - $148.35.
http://www.razorcomputers.ca/product_info.php?cPath=16_37&products_id=13018 - Random Access Memory - 81.69.
http://www.pccanada.com/viewitem.asp?id=5412 - Video card - $189.99.
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3113059&sku=M261-8114 R - Hard Drive - $66.99.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC0656&vpn=RP-500-PCAR&manufacture=COOLERMASTER - Power Supply Unit - $45.36.
http://www.eglobalonline.com/ProductDetail.asp?id=13561 - DVD Burner - $46.92.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC3485&vpn=RC-330&manufacture=COOLERMASTER - Case - $39.15.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC7628&vpn=TLF-S12-EB&manufacture=COOLERMASTER - Fan -$5.51.
My computer costs $838.07 plus shipping.

How much will I be able to overclock my processor? The computer will be down in the basement, and it's pretty cool.


----------



## ebackhus

Don't spend that little on a PSU.

I don't recommend overclocking at all.


----------



## Death

Well, I'm kind of on a low budget, so I have to spend a little less on a lot of things... how much money would a good PSU cost for me to overclock my CPU with? 

Is this good? http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC6018&vpn=FSP600-80GLC&manufacture=FSP GROUP


----------



## Death

I made two builds, one is all AMD-ATI and the other is all Intel-nVidia:

AMD-ATI build:

http://www.icct.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=191&products_id=1227 - Motherboard - $111.99.
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=19784 - Central Processing Unit - $148.35.
http://www.razorcomputers.ca/product_info.php?cPath=16_37&products_id=13018 - Random Access Memory - 81.69.
http://www.pccanada.com/viewitem.asp?id=5412 - Video card - $189.99.
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3113059&sku=M261-8114 R - Hard Drive - $66.99.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC6018&vpn=FSP600-80GLC&manufacture=FSP GROUP - Power Supply Unit - $113.40.
http://www.eglobalonline.com/ProductDetail.asp?id=13561 - DVD Burner - $46.92.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC3485&vpn=RC-330&manufacture=COOLERMASTER - Case - $39.15.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC7628&vpn=TLF-S12-EB&manufacture=COOLERMASTER - Fan -$5.51.
This computer build costs $916.54 plus shipping.

Intel-nVidia build:

http://www.hltechnology.com/one_prod.php?pid=05513 - Motherboard - $88.44.
http://www.hltechnology.com/one_prod.php?pid=03226 - Central Processing Unit - $132.00.
http://www.hltechnology.com/one_prod.php?pid=02381 - Random Access Memory - $79.98.
http://www.hltechnology.com/one_prod.php?pid=06435 - Video card - $110.00.
http://www.hltechnology.com/one_prod.php?pid=04210 - Hard Drive - $69.22.
http://www.hltechnology.com/one_prod.php?pid=27111 - Power Supply Unit - $51.50.
http://www.hltechnology.com/one_prod.php?pid=09244 - DVD Burner - $42.27.
http://www.hltechnology.com/one_prod.php?pid=11274 - Case - $31.50.
This computer build costs $687.09 plus shipping.

Which one is more worth the money?


----------



## koala

Go for the Intel, but replace the PSU with the Fortron from your AMD list.


----------



## TheMatt

I would go with the AMD build. That looks to be the higher performing rig. And with the FSP power supply, you will be all set. :smile:


----------



## Death

Somebody on another boards (GameFAQs board) told me that a 450W PSU would be just fine, even with overclocking the CPU, RAM and video card. I also changed the video card to a 7900GS, and got a better motherboard. What will happen if my PSU is not able to handle my computer? Will just the PSU blow up, or will everything else too?


----------



## koala

If the PSU is not strong enough it will cause overheating, graphics artifacts, slowdown and possible permanent damage to your components.

Did this person mention any particular model of 450W PSU based on your system specs, or how many amps a 7900GS needs on the +12V line?


----------



## TheMatt

koala said:


> If the PSU is not strong enough it will cause overheating, graphics artifacts, slowdown and possible permanent damage to your components.
> 
> Did this person mention any particular model of 450W PSU based on your system specs, or how many amps a 7900GS needs on the +12V line?


The PSU is the one component you do not want to spend less money on. It is the heard of your rig, and a bad or too small PSU can damage your other parts. You don't want your cheap PSU damaging your high end video card!

It is true that the Nvidia 7k series cards consume much less power than the ATI X1k series, but AMD is still on 90nm, so their processors will consume more power than their Intel counterparts, so You should be looking at a 550w PSU.


----------



## Death

I changed my CPU to the E4300. Also, I play on overclocking everything (CPU, RAM, video card, etc.). The 450W I was suggested was the same as the 600W one, FSB600W or something, except 450W. Is is possible for me to get a good PSU under $75?

By the way, this computer will be in my basement, which is pretty cool, and I will also purchase a fan for the case for about $10.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

I warn you overclocking *will* kill your computer eventually :normal: i have not had problems with my 500 watt but it is next on my list of upgrades to get.


----------



## Death

The Core 2 Duo is an excellent overclocker. It can overclock to 3.0GHz on air cooling, and never overheat. Anyways, here's the motherboard that I am getting:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12200BD6165&vpn=BOXDP965LTCK&manufacture=INTEL


----------



## TheMatt

If you want a good overclocking board get the Gigabyte GA-N650SLI-DS4. I am going to get that board when I build my next rig most likely.

Take a look at this article when you have the time: http://www.techsupportforum.com/

If you will be overclocking, look for a good heatsink like the Zalman 9500. I wouldn't use the stock heatsinks.


----------



## Death

That's a bit too expensive for me (I'm 16 lol). I will get the other board from Gigabyte:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11830BD3851&vpn=GA-965P-DS3&manufacture=GIGABYTE

Are you sure the fan that I listed isn't good enough to do the job? A lot of other people are saying that the C2Ds can easily be overclocked to 3.0GHz without temperatures rising too high (plus the computer will be in the basement, and it's very cool down here ).

Anyways, here is an updated build...

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10530BD2259&vpn=90-MBB4E5-G0UAYZ&manufacture=ASUS - Motherboard - $146.51.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12200BD3155&vpn=BX80557E4300&manufacture=INTEL - $154.13.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11180BD6210 - Random Access Memory - $88.92.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15180BD1119 - Video card - $193.34.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=14120DR6885 - Hard Drive - $76.32.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC0656&vpn=RP-500-PCAR&manufacture=COOLERMASTER - Power Supply Unit - $51.74.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=14040DR3543&vpn=SH-S183A/BEBN&manufacture=SAMSUNG - DVD Burner - $50.16.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC4441&vpn=CAC-T05-UW&manufacture=COOLERMASTER - Case - $57.25.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10370AC7216&vpn=TRICOOL120MMBLUELED&manufacture=ANTEC - Fan -$14.87.
This computer build costs $843.20.


----------



## koala

Overclocking requires a good quality PSU and cooling system. Even with these, it shortens the lifespan of components.

The CPU will go to 3ghz but don't expect the performance level to stay high for long if you skimp on the important PC parts.

If you're on a tight budget wanting to overclock, cut back slightly on the non-essential items and spend the money on PSU, heatsink and fans. Your computer will last longer and be more reliable that way.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

You still need to get a better psu, just because it its not overheating does not mean its not stressed but as long as you dont go to high you should be fine.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

you beat me =(


----------



## Death

Hmmm... the PSU calculator says I need 457W. So, I will get that FSB600W PSU, and also that heatsink you suggested. Is that all I need to overclock even just a little bit?


----------



## TheMatt

That should be good. I don't know how good an overclocker that board is, though. Remember you will need a good board to overclock with. Did you take a look at the one I suggested previously?


----------



## Death

Yeah, I took a look at the one you suggested, and there were no major differences, a bit of minor ones. Also, there were about 5 reviews on the cheaper board that said that it overclocked good, so that kind of got my attention I guess :\ .

Also, I have decided to get the FSP Fortron 600W PSU, here:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC6018&vpn=FSP600-80GLC&manufacture=FSP GROUP

There was one for about $15 more, but it had an unneccesary SLi/Crossfire thing, which I won't need at all, and a bigger fan.

Edit: Here is the heatsink:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15210AC4527&vpn=CNPS9500-LED&manufacture=ZALMAN TECH

Are both of these good enough to overclock to atleast 2.5GHz, and maybe 3.0GHz?


----------



## TheMatt

The one I suggested is overall better quality especially since it uses the solid aluminum capacitors. It will have an overall longer life especially when overclocked. Plus the option of going SLI later. :smile:


----------



## Death

Is it possible that I can just stick with this for now, as I'm already a bit over-budget? I can always upgrade in 6 months from now, without overclocking too much.

Also, since I don't have any money yet, do any of you know how many hours a week a part-time employee gets? I work at Subway.


----------



## TheMatt

You can get that for now, but I would definitely look into an upgrade later. I was thinking of a long term solution, but if you can't get it right away, thats fine. At least you have the PSU. :smile:

As for the job, I don't know exactly because it depends on the job. I am working 10 - 12 hours per week depending on how many customers we receive at the shop.


----------



## Death

So, do you think I'd be able to overclock well with the motherboard you suggested (up to 3GHz)? And with the CPU Heat Sink you must've missed in my above post:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15210AC4527&vpn=CNPS9500-LED&manufacture=ZALMAN TECH


----------



## speedster123

If you are dead set on overclocking, take baby steps and watch your temps with speedfan.
The upgrade to a better supply might help, most novice builders dont realize that putting in a subpar supply in a rig, is like building a high end house on a crummy foundation.
good luck


----------



## Death

Can you point me towards a better PSU? Also, what temperature serves as a warning that something will start to overheat soon?


----------



## TheMatt

If you are going with the X1950 Pro, take a look at the Antec Trio 650w. If you are using an Nvidia 7k series card, the FSP PSU you have will be fine.

When overclocking, your temperatures should never go above 60 degrees C even under full load. Remember the Core 2 Duo is very cool, so even if it goes above 55 degrees when overclocked you know something is wrong and can be adjusted.

What case will you be using? I would look for nothing smaller than a mid-tower, but preferably a full-tower so you have good airflow.


----------



## Death

I think I'm going to scrap that whole build, and make a way less powerful (in my opinion) build (with an AMD 4200+ or something). The Core 2 Duo isn't very powerful without overclocking, and I have to spend too much on PSUs and Heat Sinks to make it powerful. I will post the build here in a few minutes.

Edit: What does the EE at the end of the 4200+ mean?


----------



## TheMatt

I don't know what that EE meant. With the Pentium 4 and D, it meant extreme edition with a faster FSB and core clock speed, but AMD never used it.


----------



## Death

Ok, so far I've got:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10530BD3300&vpn=M2N-E - Motherboard - $115.56.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10360BD5358&vpn=ADO4600CUBOX&manufacture=AMD - Central Processing Unit - $134.16.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11180BD8248&vpn=TWIN2X2048-5400C4PT&manufacture=CORSAIR - Random Access Memory - $79.04.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11610BD3267&vpn=256-P2-N624-AR&manufacture=EVGA - Video card - $169.60.

The EE is for Energy Efficient.


----------



## Death

Ok, here is my new build, which won't be overclocked in any way whatsoever:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10530BD3300 - Motherboard - $131.7384.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10360BD5358 - Central Processing Unit - $152.9424.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11180BD8248 - Random Access Memory - $90.1056.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11610BD3267 - Video card - $193.344.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=14120DR6885 - Hard Drive - $76.3344.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC2682 - Power Supply Unit - $59.1888.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=14330DR8618 - DVD Drive - $44.3232.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=18310AC7405 - Case - $26.2086.
This computer build costs $774.1854.

Is my PSU bad? If so, is this any better? Also, remember that the CPU is Energy Efficient:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC0656


----------



## TheMatt

The PSU isn't bad quality, just too small. Take a look at this:
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC6096&vpn=PPA5000206&manufacture=FSP GROUP

It is worth the extra money. other than that, it looks good.

The only other thing I wanted to point out is the case. It doesn't have any front intake fans, only one over where the video card will go. I would look for an alternative case with a front intake fan if possible.


----------



## Death

Is this a better case?

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12650AC7087

or this?

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC3485


----------



## TheMatt

The second one is a good choice. :smile:


----------



## Death

How about this nice fan for some cool air 

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10370AC0677


----------



## TheMatt

Looks good. I would also get a 90mm fan for the side panel. :wink:


----------



## Death

Any more fans?


----------



## TheMatt

Nope, just the one for the front and side. Then you should be all set. You can use the stock heatsink since you won't be overclocking.


----------



## Death

I used the PSU calculator, and I didn't even reach 300W :\ (I filled in all of the options, and even putting 10 USB drives in use, even though I won't use 1/4 of them, it still didn't get over 300). Can I use the less expensive 450W one then?

Capacitor aging at 50% got me 382W recommended PSU. What does CPU Utilization mean?


----------



## TheMatt

Did you add 30% to the result? You need to do this to get an accurate result. Also, keep in mind that the 450w PSU will only be able to actually supply at most 70% of the 450w so essentially 315w. And the other problem is that it will never be able to sustain that power output, it is only a peak power output.

Fill out the PSU calculator again. Be sure to include 100% CPU utilization and 20% capacitor aging. Then multiply the result by 3. and add the product on to your result.


----------



## Death

Alright, I did it. It said 409.231 (I added 33.333%), so I think I will get this one:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=273506

except from http://www.directcanada.com/

Thanks for the help.


----------



## TheMatt

Good choice there. :smile: Post back how the rig works when you get the parts.


----------



## Death

Since I won't be overclocking, does it really matter what kind of motherboard I get, if all I care about is not worrying about everything once it's all plugged in, and just using it to play games and stuff? Because, I found a motherboard that looks pretty good (around $60), so yeah...

Also, what kind of games can this build play:

http://www.directcanada.com/product...ww.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10360BD9143 - Central Processing Unit - $85.4886.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11230BD9653 - Random Access Memory - $37.6086.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=14080BD1640 - Video card - $60.3288.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15080DR9792 - Hard Drive - $56.7264.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12600DR4736 - DVD Drive - $46.7856.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=18310AC7405 - Case - $26.2086.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC9520 - Power Supply Unit - $24.7836.
This computer build costs $337.9302.


----------



## TheMatt

The major problem I see is that you have chosen an AGP video card for a motherboard with a PCIe slot, so those will be incompatible. Also, you generally want to stay away from mATX motherboards unless you plan on putting them in nATX cases or will not be purchasing dedicated video.

I would take a look at something like this:
Athlon 64 4200+ or 4400+ 2.2 GHz CPU
MSI K9N Neo-F nForce 550 Motherboard
GeForce 6600GT or 7300GT 128-bit GPU
Antec TP-3 Trio 550w PSU

And then everything else you selected. I would find the parts but the site currently isn't working from my end.


----------



## Death

Ok, this is the new rig (I'm going to decide what to get after, it's all price vs. performance):

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12980BD4337 - Motherboard - Motherboard - $84.9528.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10360BD3363 - Central Processing Unit - $91.52.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11230BD9653 - Random Access Memory - 37.6086.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11610BD4089 - Video card - $79.7886.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15080DR1145 - Hard Drive - $72.9144.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=14330DR8618 - DVD Drive - $44.3232.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=18310AC7405 - Case - $26.2086.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC6096 - Power Supply Unit - $97.5612. 
This computer build costs $534.8774.

Is it good for upgrading (not major upgrades), and what kind of games should I be able to run with this setup?


----------



## Death

I'm searching google right now for an online store in Canada that will let you buy something over $500 (or so) and not pay for 6 months.


----------



## TheMatt

Pretty good. I would get two 512 MB sticks instead of one 1 GB stick so you get dual channel (128-bit memory bus instead of a 64-bit memory bus). Also, remember we talked about the cases and having a front intake fan. :wink:


----------



## Death

Oh yeah... about that, I decided to go back to the better rig, because if I can find an online retailer that will offer no payments for 6 months, then I will just get that PC.


----------



## TheMatt

OK. Post back when you find it.


----------



## Death

Pretty nice PSU here:

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicati...ffiliateID=CAqD7bLWUPI-QGvLY7alHo3v0KlNjoTH5A


----------



## Death

How much RAM will I need on Vista to run games at high settings? Also, should I get the 8600GT, or is the 7900GS a lot better?


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

You will need around 2gb my system locksup with only 1 gb, anway here comes matts rant about ultra psus (that should be fine my 500 watt one runs my 7900 gtx)


----------



## TheMatt

Death said:


> Pretty nice PSU here:
> 
> http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicati...ffiliateID=CAqD7bLWUPI-QGvLY7alHo3v0KlNjoTH5A


No, I'm sorry to say that is one of the PSU manufacturers to avoid. They try to make it good, but they never succeed. If you look at how much they lack the ability to sustain power output under high temps, it is scary. :4-thatsba



Death said:


> How much RAM will I need on Vista to run games at high settings? Also, should I get the 8600GT, or is the 7900GS a lot better?


Newer games will be better on the 8600GT, but most of the time the 7900GS would be a better choice. If you can afford it, go for the X1950 Pro or X1950XT, which are excellent cards. The 8600GTS is also another good choice if you can pick up an overclocked version.


----------



## Death

Would a 7900GS be able to RUN DirectX 10 games, or not at all? Or can I run it without the extra eye candy that DirectX 10 adds?

or

should I get this:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=23310BD2282&vpn=BFGE86256GTSOCEC&manufacture=BFG


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

At first without the eye candy then they will slowly fade out the dx9c option in newer games.


----------



## Death

Yeah, but I found a good overclocked version of thge 8600GTS. Should I get it?

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=23310BD2282&vpn=BFGE86256GTSOCEC&manufacture=BFG

to go with this PSU:

http://infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=349336


----------



## Kalim

Here's a good 520W for $97: http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11180AC4384&vpn=CMPSU-520HX&manufacture=CORSAIR

I can't find more since I don't know which stores you're willing to purchase from. I haven't yet sen anything bad about the StealthXStream either. As Matt said, stay away from that X-Finity. It's worth the price it's going for there.

Nope, 7900GS can't run DX10 apps. For that you'll have to look to the nVidia 8xxx series or ATI HD2xxx series cards. The card you chose above is a good choice. :smile:


----------



## Death

Will this DVD-ROM work with my motherboard?

http://www.factorydirect.ca/catalog/product_spec.php?pcode=PI0110

Also,

http://www.genitechcomputers.com/pr...uxe_nforce-570_sli-mcp_motherboard/index.html - Motherboard - $136.7886.

http://infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=333833 - Central Processing Unit - $165.3.

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=1558870 - Random Access Memory - $91.1658.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=23310BD2282 - Video card - $227.9886.

http://infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=335827 - Hard Drive - $67.83.

http://www.factorydirect.ca/catalog/product_spec.php?pcode=PI0110 - DVD-ROM - $34.1886.

http://infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=349336 - Power Supply Unit - $100.32.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC3485 - Case - $44.631.

This computer build costs $868.2126.


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Will this DVD-ROM work with my motherboard?
> 
> http://www.factorydirect.ca/catalog/product_spec.php?pcode=PI0110
> 
> http://www.genitechcomputers.com/pr...uxe_nforce-570_sli-mcp_motherboard/index.html - Motherboard - $136.7886.


Nice board. It will work, but you won't be able to use any more IDE HDDs as you only have one IDE slot available, and your HDD performance will be affected by placing both the optical and bootup HDD on the same IDE cable.

Why have you changed from the previous $538 rig?


----------



## TheMatt

Kalim, the optical drive will only be using DMA-2, I doubt the IDE interface will be a bottleneck even if it is only ATA-100. :wink:


----------



## Death

The other rig wasn't as powerful as this one.


----------



## Kalim

TheMatt said:


> Kalim, the optical drive will only be using DMA-2, I doubt the IDE interface will be a bottleneck even if it is only ATA-100. :wink:


I gather. From what I've seen and been taught (although not in all cases experienced), sharing the HDD and optical drive on one channel will drop the HDD to UDMA 2 speed, which is 33.3MB/s rather than 133MB/s. One of the reasons they disallow this at work. 

But I've just checked again and my assumption was based on an incorrect bases. The HDD in question is SATA II not IDE as I mistakingly recalled. :embarased

So yeah, there shouldn't be any conflict or loss of speed with that scenario, thanks. :grin:


----------



## Death

What is the difference between PC6400 and PC 5400~ (RAM)?


----------



## ebackhus

The PC6400 is marginally faster.


----------



## Death

So, should I but PC6400 RAM, or would the PC5400 RAM be enough for gaming, with my CPU and GPU?


----------



## TheMatt

You only need PC6400 if you plan on overclocking. If you have a dual channel pair of RAM sticks of those speeds there will be an unnoticeable difference if any.


----------



## Death

Oh, I see. I don't plan on overclocking at all whatsoever, so I guess I will get the Corsair PC5400 C4PT 2*1GB RAM.


----------



## TheMatt

That is good RAM. :smile:


----------



## Death

I could also go for 2GB of Generic PC4200 RAM for $60. Or is that bad?


----------



## TheMatt

I would go for the Corsair RAM.


----------



## Death

Which is better, one 8800GTS or two 8600GTS (SLI)?


----------



## TheMatt

If both are at stock speeds, then the single 8800GTS will be better almost all the time. But just by a little.


----------



## Death

Alright, well I've decided that I'm going to get the 7900GS for now, and in a year or so from now when I have enough money, will just upgrade it or something. Are all the new games coming out gonna need DX 10, or will it just be an option? Enemy Territory: Quake Wars for example.


----------



## Death

Also, should I get this case that already has a 450W PSU in it, so I can save $100? Then, I can probably get a LCD monitor or a better GPU (you tell me ).


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

NEVER use case psus.


----------



## Kalim

Stick with known reliable PSUs, not most of the ones in cases. A lot of games coming will require DX10 - gaming is set to move *totally* over to DX10 as soon as it can, and on Vista.

But I guess you have another year at most for a complete move yet. :smile:

That's the same reason 3DMark is becoming DX10/Vista only too.

Crysis, Hellgate London, Clive Baker's Jericho, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Unreal 3, Bioshock, Lost Planet, Alan Wake (etc) are based for D3D10 primarily.


----------



## Death

You guys are right... again. DirectX 10 is the way to go, so I'm getting this:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15180BD9341
Can't wait until Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway comes out!

I will also buy the case and my own PSU (Antec Blue Storm 500W).


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

IDk about the blue storm? But the card looks good.


----------



## Death

Ummm, which is better when it comes to price vs. performance, the $250~ 8600GTS or the $150~ 8600GT?


----------



## TheMatt

You can get the 8600GTS for much less, shop around a little more.

EDIT: Oh wait, that is Canadian dollars. Hmm... Take a look at something like this:
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3041061&CatId=1560

Maybe you can still find something cheaper.


----------



## Kalim

In Canada, $230 is about the cheapest you will get it for. :smile:


----------



## Death

If I got an 8800GTS, would I be able to get solid FPS in all games?


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> If I got an 8800GTS, would I be able to get solid FPS in all games?


Most currently available games yes, but it depends on what resolution and settings?

The ones coming out this year, and some already out will bring the oc'd 8800Ultra to it's knees. That's DX10 I'm talking about primarily. There's nothing in DX9c that is unplayable by the 8800 series cards, unless you take it past 1600x1200 resolution, highest detail (incl. HDR) and high AF/AA.


----------



## Death

Hmmm... should I just stick with the 8600GTS then? Will it run Brothers in Arms: Hells Highway?


----------



## TheMatt

What resolution? It can probably run it at 1280 x 1024 at medium high to high detail with 4x AA and 4x AF.


----------



## Death

I've decided to get the 8800GTS 320MB instead. What kind of settings will I be able to get in the same game?


----------



## Kalim

Resolutions below 1600x1200 should run but how good depends on the settings. I doubt the IQ would be much good with a 8600GTS though, in comparison to a 8800GTS with the latest nV FW beta drivers.

The G80GTS can be overclocked highly, and make *high* gains with this method BTW. It will run well below 1600x1200 at highest settings.


----------



## Death

I don't want to overclock anything lol, but with these parts, how long will I be able to wait before an upgrade is absolutely neccesary?

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12980BD4337 - Motherboard - $78.9912.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10360BD5430 - Central Processing Unit - $153.2336.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11180BD8248 - Random Access Memory - $82.68.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11610BD2984 - Video card - $343.4294.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12040DR4681 - Hard Drive - $70.967.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12600DR8916 - DVD-ROM - $29.5528.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC6096 - Power Supply Unit - $90.7148.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12650AC7087 - Case - $42.824.

This computer build costs $892.3928.


----------



## Kalim

For DX10 gaming or for general usage?

What FPS do you tolerate as a minimum for decent play in a game, and at what resolution, detail and AA/AF?

It all depends on your needs.


----------



## Death

I am very tolerant when it comes to FPS. On my old Dell B800R, I got FPSs of 10 - 30 on Battlefield 1942, and I only really got annoyed when it sunk lower than 15 on low settings. With that rig I just posted, what do you think I will get on modern games with medium to high settings? I plan to play games like Guild Wars, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, F.E.A.R, Oblivion, and Battlefield 2142, etc. When Enemy Territory: Quake Wars comes out, I want to be able to play that, and I also want to be able to play Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway when it comes out. Basically, I want my computer to run everything ATLEAST in low settings with a minimum of 30 FPS.

And for details, well, as high as I can get before I get to 30 FPS.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

It should do just fine then.


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> I am very tolerant when it comes to FPS. On my old Dell B800R, I got FPSs of 10 - 30 on Battlefield 1942, and I only really got annoyed when it sunk lower than 15 on low settings. With that rig I just posted, what do you think I will get on modern games with medium to high settings? I plan to play games like Guild Wars, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, F.E.A.R, Oblivion, and Battlefield 2142, etc. When Enemy Territory: Quake Wars comes out, I want to be able to play that, and I also want to be able to play Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway when it comes out. Basically, I want my computer to run everything ATLEAST in low settings with a minimum of 30 FPS.
> 
> And for details, well, as high as I can get before I get to 30 FPS.


I don't know about Hell highway but I know for ET:QW you can play it with anything that can play the Doom 3 technology perfectly, and have seen the beta's played on 30inch Dell monitors at 2560x1600 and 1920x1200 with the high end Dell systems featuring an 8800 at maxed out settings, fully smoothly! 

Why I mentioned overclocking is that this will make your card as good as a 8800GTX in performance for cheap, when need be. :wink:


----------



## Death

So, Hell's Highway won't run at all, on any settings? Also, for my case, how many fan slots are there? I want to get an LED fan in there  .

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10370AC0677 - Fan - $14.2358.


----------



## Death

Also, should I get this RAM?

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11230BD9653

I can get 2 of it, and it's $10~ cheaper then the Corsair RAM... which happens to be PC5400, not PC5300 like the Crucial RAM.

Oh yeah, just forgot... the Corsair is dual channel. Is that a big enough difference?


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> So, Hell's Highway won't run at all, on any settings?


Of course it'll run, but I just don't know exactly to what extent as it's not released till Christmas and so no one can really say, until it's been tested on the present hardware.

We'll just have to wait and see. But it should get at least 30 FPS stock - for more just overclock a little.



> Also, for my case, how many fan slots are there? I want to get an LED fan in there  .
> 
> http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10370AC0677 - Fan - $14.2358.


Nice fan.

The case comes with a 80mm RGBY LED fan and you have the option to mount another rear fan as either 80mm / 90mm / 120mm. So you can fit yours in there.



Death said:


> Also, should I get this RAM?
> 
> http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11230BD9653
> 
> I can get 2 of it, and it's $10~ cheaper then the Corsair RAM... which happens to be PC5400, not PC5300 like the Crucial RAM.
> 
> Oh yeah, just forgot... the Corsair is dual channel. Is that a big enough difference?


Yes it certainly is. Stick to the dual channel quality RAM, less of that cheap skating. :4-thatsba :4-whip:


----------



## Death

Alright, everything in my rig sounds great then. So, this build would last me about a year before I have to make a small upgrade again to keep up with the newer games?

EDIT: Should I save a little more, and get the 640MB version:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11610BD1442

Or is the 320MB version good enough for a year until I can upgrade to a better GPU?


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> EDIT: Should I save a little more, and get the 640MB version:
> 
> http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11610BD1442
> 
> Or is the 320MB version good enough for a year until I can upgrade to a better GPU?


The HD2900XT is a better purchase than that, especially for futureproofing/cost.

It's a toss up between the 320MB and 640MB version. Personally, I don't consider it worth another $100 *at all* and I would just simply OC the 320MB (since it's that easy to) with ATI Tools and get it to perform better than the 640MB version. 

Yes, it should be fine for a year. :grin:


----------



## Death

Use ATI Tools for a nVidia card? Is my PSU ready for this?


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Use ATI Tools for a nVidia card? Is my PSU ready for this?


Yes and yes, as long as you don't overclock _extremely_. :grin:


----------



## Death

Great. Will I be able to surpass the bus speed of the 8600GTS without blowing up my card :O ?


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Great. Will I be able to surpass the bus speed of the 8600GTS without blowing up my card :O ?


675MHz/2GHz is what the stock nV 8600GTS runs at and 500MHz/1.6GHz what the stock nV 8800GTS run at.

But it's not about speed at all. The 8600GTS is no match for the G80 series, not even the 8800GTS.

Overclocking needs time and patience. Read and understand *a lot* before you try it. Don't plan but to overclocking in 1MHz increases at first as a try.

Depending on your card (each differs) and your cooling, 655MHz/2.1GHz is quite easy for that card I would say.

*However*, my advice to you is, when you plan on overclocking, post back again as a new thread and we will help you reach a suitable figure and performance level. :smile:

Don't try to rush at it or be negligent as it can damage components if not careful.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

Well i should have tried that the first time i overclocked i jumped my clocks to twice normal (that computer will never compute again) =(


----------



## Death

Do I need a case with a window on it for the LEDs to pour out? Or is it ok if I get one without a window? Also, are the AMD processors also going to be reduced in price on July 22nd? If so, by how much?


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Do I need a case with a window on it for the LEDs to pour out? Or is it ok if I get one without a window? Also, are the AMD processors also going to be reduced in price on July 22nd? If so, by how much?


You've asked the most questions so far that I can remember. :grin:

LEDs - which ones do you want to be showing out? (that case you've chosen has a slide window)

Price drop - yes, AMD CPUs are being slashed in price on 9th of July and Intel Core 2 Duo's on the 22nd of July.

Expect some delays as resellers move around old stock, so the due dates will be delayed a little. Some online etailers have already seen some unexpected price drops before the expected dates.

Intel cuts: http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=789466

End Price:











AMD cuts: http://www.amdzone.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=7860

Cut amount:


----------



## Death

I have a lot to learn about computers  .

I want the LED to be very bright, as well as cool looking. Also, I will get the 5000+ instead of the 4800+.


----------



## Death

Actually, I will get the 5600+, since it has a 2MB L2 Cache.


----------



## Kalim

I haven't seen a picture of the case behind upfront, so I can't tell if the exhaust fan will display clearly the LEDs you want through the side window, or not. I've never bothered with starting my systems up, maybe someone who does love this kind of thing can offer you suggestions.

5600+ will drop US$30.


----------



## Death

Yeah, that's good. The website I am buying it from already has a $30 off of it without the price cut, so I'd imagine the price of it will be about $5 - $10 more than what the 4800+ is now. I am going to buy the computer in 3 parts as I get more and more money. Now, I have enough money to buy:

Hard Drive
DVD Drive
Case
LED Fan
DVD+Rs

which will cost around $210 with shipping included already. I will then get the Motherboard, CPU and RAM, then the GPU. 

Should I install Vista on my dad's Dell XPS Dimension, or will there be driver issues when I do that and get my other parts? I also changed the PSU to an Apex 600W:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=22510AC2835&vpn=SL-8600EPS&manufacture=Apex Computer Technology


----------



## TheMatt

I would look at a better PSU than that. It is a cheap PSU that you do not want to be stuck with. Take a look at this:
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11700AC7815&vpn=FX600-GLN-E&manufacture=FORTRON SOURCE


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Should I install Vista on my dad's Dell XPS Dimension, or will there be driver issues when I do that and get my other parts?


 No idea if there will be issues, but as of, now many issues have been resolved, so you can install it if you wish. Every system is different. 



> I also changed the PSU to an Apex 600W:
> 
> http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=22510AC2835&vpn=SL-8600EPS&manufacture=Apex Computer Technology


 :4-thatsba


----------



## Death

Is something wrong with it? It costs more than the other one, and has more Watts.


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Is something wrong with it? It costs more than the other one, and has more Watts.


The reference to "cheap" by Matt is to it's internals and poor quality more than the outer price, although yet again he is right, as the price for a 600W is low.

Decent 500-550W PSUs (unless on special offer) are sold for $85-120.

Decent 600-650W PSUs are usually in the $105-160 range.

American $.

Look towards the one Matt posted a link to if you want to upgrade. :wink:


----------



## Death

I found a good one then:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11510AC5528

I think 535W should be enough for my system. I'm also getting 3GB for Vista.


----------



## TheMatt

That is a decent PSU. Enermax has been slipping out lately, but as long as the PSU stays reasonably cool, then you should be fine.

What are the current specs you are looking at?
__________________
- Matt Modica - KB1OSC​


















If TSF has helped you, please consider donating.

If I have stopped responding to a thread, feel
free to send me a PM with a link to the thread.

It is advisable to subscribe to threads so you will
receive updates when replies are posted. You can
subscribe to threads from the "Thread Tools" Menu.

Click the "My System" link at the right for a pull
down menu with my laptop's specifications or 
click here for a detailed list of specifications

»Memtest86 »Prime95 »UBCD »SpeedFan »MobileMeter
»Everest »Sandra »PC Wizard »RivaTuner »ATI Tray Tools

Click here for Useful Articles and Guides


----------



## Death

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12980BD4337 - Motherboard - $78.9912.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10360BD5430 - Central Processing Unit - $153.2336.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11180BD8248 - Random Access Memory one - $87.0896.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11180BD2982 - Random Access Memory two - $47.4032.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11610BD2984 - Video card - $343.4294.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15080DR4191 - Hard Drive - $77.168.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12600DR8916 - DVD Drive - $29.5528.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12600DR8035 - CD Drive - $21.7512.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC6096 - Power Supply Unit - $99.5976.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12650AC7087 - Case - $42.824.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10370AC0677 - Fan - $14.2358.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=14950AC0430 - DVD+Rs - $9.9216.

This computer build costs $1,005.198.

Hopefully, the 5600 (or the 5200, whichever is less expensive on DirectCanada) will go down, and it will be $160~. I'm also guessing that 3GB of RAM is the best to go with Vista. The video card, I think, will last me about 3 years before it will be absolutely neccesary to upgrade (although I will upgrade before then). Instead of ever upgrading the HDD, I will just buy more. The case looks alright to me, with the side window and good ventilation. What am I going to do with the 450W PSU that comes with it? Can you use two PSUs at once?

As for the PSU, I will buy a 750W~ when I upgrade next.


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> This computer build costs $1,005.198.
> 
> Hopefully, the 5600 (or the 5200, whichever is less expensive on DirectCanada) will go down, and it will be $160~. I'm also guessing that 3GB of RAM is the best to go with Vista. The video card, I think, will last me about 3 years before it will be absolutely neccesary to upgrade (although I will upgrade before then). Instead of ever upgrading the HDD, I will just buy more. The case looks alright to me, with the side window and good ventilation. What am I going to do with the 450W PSU that comes with it? Can you use two PSUs at once?
> 
> As for the PSU, I will buy a 750W~ when I upgrade next.


Your total cost yet is ~$959.

Consider these better/cheaper cards on rebate:
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10720BD4695&vpn=BFGR88320GTSOCE&manufacture=BFG
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10720BD9819&vpn=BFGR88320GTSOC2EI&manufacture=BFG

That'll decrease the price more and with better performance.

The second RAM you listed is not needed at all, will decrease your performance even if it worked and mainly, it is SODIMM, not compatible with your system. :wink:

You only need the first dual channel pair.

Sell the PSU on eBay or keep it for testing systems/troubleshooting. :grin:

Consider this PSU: http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=13220AC0022&vpn=OCZ600SXS&manufacture=OCZ


----------



## Death

That PSU, according to reviews, is a bit loud. I will stick with the Enermax one for now, and will get the 700W version of the OCZ StealthXStream later on. Also, I thought Vista used 1GB of RAM on idle? I need 2GB of RAM for the newer games to load quickly and play properly on high settings. The video card has mail in rebate attached to it, so the real price is about $30~ more than the standard 8800GTS.

Will this memory work?

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11230BD9653

Will I need a seperate video card (they are not very expensive) for better performance for internet and maybe better sound quality? I think I will also get a floppy drive too.


----------



## Death

Sorry, meant to say seperate sound card...


----------



## TheMatt

You should start off with at least a 700w PSU for an 8800GTS. Start off with the GameXstream or maybe the FSP 700w
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC4990&vpn=FX700-GLN&manufacture=FSP GROUP
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=13220AC9376&vpn=OCZ700GXSSLI&manufacture=OCZ


----------



## Death

Well, I made another rig (again), and I think that I will get this one first, and buy a completely new rig once it stops satisfying me:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12980BD4337 - Motherboard - $78.9912.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10360BD9143 - Central Processing Unit - $73.0128.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11180BD4770 - Random Access Memory - $60.632.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11610BD4089 - Video card - $74.1894.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15080DR9792 - Hard Drive - $50.7104.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12600DR0304 - CD+RW/DVD Drive - $32.3936.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=18310AC7405 - Case - $24.3694.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC8288 - Power Supply Unit - $25.175.
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC1578 - LED Fan - $4.5686.
This computer build costs $424.0424.

Hopefully the PSU is enough; I didn't add the 30%, because I don't plan on overclocking or upgrading this PC. Any thoughts, guys? Oh yeah, about the case not having the front slits for air to come in and out: I will probably open the side of the case, to remove that issue and for the LED to poor out.

P.S: And no, I don't plan on running Oblivion at 1600x1200 with this.  .


----------



## TheMatt

I don't think that FSP has PFC, so I would not get it. Also, the 30% is for PSU inefficiency so you always must add it. Take a look at this instead:
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC6096&vpn=PPA5000206&manufacture=FSP GROUP

With that, I would just upgrade the CPU, video card, and RAM later. You don't need a new motherboard.


----------



## Death

I got a different build, basically just a motherboard, and the right parts to go with it (2GB, 3600+, etc.). Anyways, is the 3600+ 1.9GHz better than a Pentium D 3.0GHz? Or are they about the same? Will those specs run anything in DirectX 10 (Vista), or if not, should I downgrade the RAM to 1GB, and the video card to a 7600GT?


----------



## ebackhus

If it's a 3600+ X2, then they are about equal on performance.


----------



## Death

Well, I have decided to not go with DirectX 10 (sorry guys) YET. In about 6 months, however, when I will have loads of cash, I will make the move, OR if there aren't any decent games out yet, I will save even more for an 8800GTX or something. Anyways, will a 7600GT do the trick for all DX9 games, or am I looking at a 7900GS for that ($30~ difference).

Also, does the 3600+ mean that it's like a Pentium D with two 3.6GHz CPUs, or it's like a Pentium D that is rated at 3.6GHz. And is it still a bit better than the 830? How about a 3800+?


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

Take the step up if its only $30 it will make a big difference.


----------



## Kalim

There's only a $25 difference between the 7600GS, 7600GT and 8600GT. Roughly $80 to $105. 7900GS is around $140 and the 7900GT is $250 mark.

I'd just get the 7600GT or the 8600GT until a bigger upgrade budget comes along, sell that and buy a better. :wink:


----------



## Death

Also which CPU to get?


----------



## Kalim

I thought you said the X2 3600+ was an option?

That's good enough to get.


----------



## Death

Alright, now I just need to wait until about August before I will have enough moolah.


----------



## Death

I have two more questions:

Is a 350W PSU good enough for a non-future proof medium-end PC (3600+ AMD X2, 2GB RAM, 7600GT)?

And, what is my CPU rated at? You know those system requirements tests, they say something like two 1.9GHz rated at 4GHz or something like that (not sure if it's higher or lower).


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

I would go with a 400 watt decend if you are going to junk it later.


----------



## Death

Alright. So what would my CPU be rated at? Is the 3600+ mean that it's faster than a Pentium D with two CPUs going at 3.6GHz, or faster than a single core 3.6GHz CPU?


----------



## TheMatt

No, you need a good 450w PSU for that, but good 500w is preferable.

The 3600+ should be about as good as a Pentium D 820.


----------



## Death

Hmmm... why does the PSU calculator say otherwise then? I added 20% capacitor aging and the CPU Utilization at 100%, as well as everything down to the smallest detail... and it didn't surpass 270W. I added 30% to that (3*27 = 61), and got 331W.

Would a 4200+ be faster than an 830? I can't seem to find any good CPU benchmarking charts. The 4200 is EE btw (65W instead of 90).


----------



## TheMatt

Check out CPU charts 2006:
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html

You have to account for PSU inefficiency. A 400w PSU outputs a max of 400w, but depending on temps, it may only sustain 300w. You need your PSU to sustain the power output of at least the value from the calculator under full load and at high temperatures (40 degrees C usually). 

A 350w PSU cannot do that.

I would go with the 4200 BTW.


----------



## ebackhus

I think they had a benchmark using a 4200+ EE at www.hardwaresecrets.com and it did rather nicely. The lower wattage will also translate into lower temps and less noise from cooling.


----------



## Death

Ok, here is a picture of my dad's CPU in Everest:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/DeAtH12345/CPU.jpg

Can you tell me what it's called exactly (doesn't seem to be a Pentium D at all)?

Is at 3600+ better than it? It's about $70~ less than the 4200. All I care about is if my CPU beats my dad's .


----------



## Death

Is this a good PSU?

Sparkle Power SPI ATX-400PN

Input Specifications
• Voltage:
110-120/220-240VAC
• Frequency: 47 Hz to 63 Hz
• Input current: 8.5 amps maximum / 115Vrms, 60Hz.
5 amps maximum / 230Vrms, 50Hz.

Output Specifications
• Over-voltage protection: +3.3V (4.6V max.), +5V (6.5V max.),
12V1 (15.5V max.), 12V2 (15.5V max.)
• Over-current protection: +3.3V (90.0A max.), +5V (68.0A max.),
+12V1 (32.0A max.), +12V2 (32.0A max.)
• Short circuit protection: The power supply is prevented from output over current.
• Remote ON/OFF control: The power supply shall accept a logic open collector level which
will disable / enable all output voltage (excluding +5V standby).
• Power good signal: 115/230V (full load) 100 - 500 ms

General Specifications
• MTBF:
100K hours at 25°C
• Efficiency: 70% min.
• Hold-up time: 17.0ms minimum at 115V/60Hz.
17.0ms minimum at 230V/50Hz.

Environmental Specifications
• Operating conditions:
ambient temperature 0°C~50°C, 90% RH
• Storage and
shipping conditions: ambient temperature -20°C~65°C, 95% RH
• Dielectric strength: primary to frame ground 1800 VAC for 1 second,
primary to secondary 1800 VAC for 1 second


----------



## Death

Actually, this one looks better:

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=36290AC4925

Is 400W enough for the lower price, or should I defintely get the 500W one?


----------



## TheMatt

I would go with this if possible:
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11730AC2265&vpn=FSP400-60THN-R&manufacture=FSP GROUP

Even better if its in the budget:
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10370AC1035&vpn=TPII-430&manufacture=ANTEC


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Ok, here is a picture of my dad's CPU in Everest:
> 
> http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/DeAtH12345/CPU.jpg
> 
> Can you tell me what it's called exactly (doesn't seem to be a Pentium D at all)?


It's a P4 3GHz socket 478, Northwood core, 800MHz FSB. Also known as P4 3.0C, not D. :wink:



> Is at 3600+ better than it? It's about $70~ less than the 4200. All I care about is if my CPU beats my dad's .


Any dual core is better than that, it just about beats the Athlon XP 3200+.

The cheapest Athlon X2 you can get is too good for it. They're old Northwood cores, released since early 2002, just a new D1 revision of the same core.



Death said:


> Is this a good PSU?
> 
> Sparkle Power SPI ATX-400PN


I'd rather get an Ultra X2 unit than that. Nope, it's no good, too old. :frown:


----------



## Death

How much better will the E4300 be at gaming? I looked at many, many reviews saying that it can overclock to 3GHz+ with air cooling. Even if I did got a Zalman CPU heatsink, how much better would the E4300 be than the 4600+ EE (which is the same price)?


----------



## Kalim

At just gaming? Hardly any difference.

With other aspects included, there is a notable difference, especially due to the ease of overclocking. 3GHz is not a given on all E4300 on air, but around 2800MHz is.


----------



## TheMatt

Remember, a graphics upgrade will make a much more noticable difference in gaming than a processor upgrade. :wink:


----------



## ebackhus

A 3600+ will meet or beat that Pentium D in almost any circumstance.


----------



## TheMatt

Which model?
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=471&model2=448&chart=171
Even the 3800+ doesn't do to well.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

Acording to that pd=better at everything but gaming.


----------



## TheMatt

I like the choice of boards much more for Intel right now, and if you get a C2D ready board, you can upgrade the CPU later if you want.


----------



## Kalim

A 2GHz Manchester core 3800+ X2 S939 will beat a Pentium 920 D 2.8GHz in near enough everything and by quite a margin. The chip is cool, cooler than the Pentium D or the Pentium D EE lineup, and can OC 600MHz air stable just like the 920 quite easily.

Here's a few bench comparison. 

3800+ X2, 4800+ X2 vs D 820 and D 840 EE:
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/226/2/
http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/components/0,1000001694,39233885,00.htm

More thorough comparison:
http://www.overclockers.com.au/article.php?id=452447&P=3

The dual core real life crown there goes to the FX60 and the 3800+ X2 is better than all but the 955 XE and 840 XE processors.


----------



## Death

Hey, are you sure that the 4200+ (I chose that now ) won't outperform the 3.00GHz P4 (which is rated at 4.49GHz on SRTest.com)?


----------



## TheMatt

Any X2 will beat a P4. :wink:


----------



## Death

So, a 4200+ will say something like 1.9GHz Dual Core CPU rated at 5.49GHz or something like that on SRTest.com?


----------



## TheMatt

I don't know, according to AMDs system of ratings it will be a 2.2 GHz CPU rated at a 4.2 GHz P4.


----------



## Death

Hmmm... well then, only the 4600+ beats the P4, because it's rated at 4.49GHz? Or is that just a bad assumption based on SRTest.com's standards? Like, a 4200+ will be as good as a P4 4.2GHz, but it "gets more done" per clock, because of the 4x better L1 Cache and the 2x better L2 Cache? Or am I wrong?


----------



## TheMatt

Remember that the X2 is dual core though, so it will be much better at multitasking.
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=441&model2=469&chart=174
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=441&model2=469&chart=173

Good site for comparing CPU performance.


----------



## Kalim

Death: It's not about frequency numbers, there's a lot more to it. :sayyes:

In *real life* tests and gaming (overclocked), a 2.4GHz X2 3800+ is equal to a 4GHz Pentium D 920 in performance. Both win each other by marginal differences a few times and are equal on many performance tests.

But the major difference as Matt outlined earlier is, when AMD Athlon 64 was at the peak, nV and all other major chipset makers optimized and worked thoroughly on boards for them, thus bettering their performance.

Then Intel Core 2 came along; for a year now the motherboard manufacturers have been working day and night on just optimizing for this architecture - Intel - Intel - Intel.

So your choices here are *vast* and *very well* optimized, whereas there really is no major new decent board for AMD chips. Not at the same mark as those for Intel.

The Intel chipset P5K boards are even better than the 680i SLI, especially at memory bandwidth with the same hardware/software.

The E6550 is a major choice for me if I was purchasing now: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...10005520+E6550+intel&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

There's some spying for you. :wink:


----------



## Death

Hey all, I've decided to get the 4200+ after doing some research online, it has a performance rating of 6.3GHz, which is good enough for me  .


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Hey all, I've decided to get the 4200+ after doing some research online, it has a performance rating of 6.3GHz, which is good enough for me  .


It's a perfect CPU, but where did you get this rating from?

You need to look at it's performance in seperate scenarios, rather than these ratings. I've ran a P4 at 6GHz and it beat the AMD X2's below 2.5GHz in all spheres, especially in multimedia and memory bandwidth, so I know that's just pokies to claim by whoever gave that rating.

A very big guesstimate.


----------



## Death

That's what this website says for any dual core; it multiplies the clock, or the AMD rating by 1.5. My dad's 2.99GHz P4 HT is rated 4.49, and the 3600+ is rated 5.40 GHz (which I will probably get now, since it I realised that it's still way faster than any P4 HT, and costs a lot less too).


----------



## Death

Oh yeah, the website is:

Http://www.srtest.com/


----------



## Kalim

Death said:


> Death said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what this website says for any dual core; it multiplies the clock, or the AMD rating by 1.5. My dad's 2.99GHz P4 HT is rated 4.49, and the 3600+ is rated 5.40 GHz (which I will probably get now, since it I realised that it's still way faster than any P4 HT, and costs a lot less too).
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, the website is:
> 
> Http://www.srtest.com/
Click to expand...

Ah, yes of course. It does skimp out on quite a lot, and that rating counts for nothing but strictly games.

But we've already mentioned a few times, that any AMD X2 and Core 2 above 2GHz is fast enough for any game at the native monitor resolution. :wink:


----------



## Death

Does the "native monitor resolution" count for the monitor that I got with my Pentium 3 (Dell)? Or is it too old to run games? It's the newest one that I have, besides my dad's two LCD monitors.


----------



## Kalim

It depends on the GFX and CPU used, very much.

Say you used an 8800GTX and an X2 at 2300MHz.

The native resolution is the best default resolution that the screen can render, stated by the manufacturer in the original technical specifications. So it varies from monitor to monitor. I don't know your monitor model, so I'm not sure of your native screen resolution either.

In gaming, the CPU computes and executes the game code, such as calculating object motion, the physics, AI & wire-frame positioning (2D). The GPU adds lighting/coloring, applies textures, filters the textures and so on.

When you play at 19" [&] above monitors at the native or just high resolutions with medium-high quality settings with the above hardware, the load is on the GPU (GPU limited) and very few games will be affected much by the dual/quad core CPU speeds as long as it's 2Hz and above. Thus GPU is the bottleneck to better performance and no CPU 1GHz increase will matter much.

*But* when you change the resolution below the native or just low, then the load is switched over to the CPU more and more. At ~1600x1200 with no or max AA/AF it's again GPU limited. At 1280x1024 mid-max settings with the above hardware, the GPU is limited. 

With 1024x768 and high settings, it will be CPU limited, as the 8800GTX is too powerful at those settings to be limited.

Basically, low resolutions are mostly CPU dependent and limited. High resolutions with mid-high settings are GPU limited, for the better cards.

Quite weird, but testing will show you what is limiting "a particular game's performance" on your own system. :wink:


----------



## Death

Hey everybody, it's been awhile since I last posted  . I found another GPU, the HD 2600PRO w/ 512MB. It's the one that uses DDR2 memory, and it only costs $115.00 CAD, which is $20.00 CAD less than the 7600GT. 

The 256MB version costs $10 less. Also, I found a HD 2600XT 256MB with GDDR4 memory, but it is $25.00 more than the 7600GT that I was planning on getting.

So, will I notice any significant performance (even though I don't have either of them yet ) over the 7600GT with any of those cards? Which one offers the best bang for the buck (7600GT included)?


----------



## TheMatt

With only the Trio 430w, I wouldn't get anything above a 7900GS (which only consumes a little more power). The HD 2600XT takes up way too much power for a Trio 430w.


----------



## Death

How about the HD 2600PRO 512MB? Would that be a good choice for a budget DX10 PC? I also bumped the PSU to a 500W.


----------



## Kalim

I'd stick with a 7600GT or an 8600GTS rather than any of those two. The HD 2900XT is the best buy of all GPUs but the rest of the bunch is not decent at all, albeit cheap and offering many features.


----------



## TheMatt

Which 500w? A cheap 500w won't be much better if at all than the quality 430w of the Antec Trio. Can you afford the Antec Trio 550w?

In newer games it will do waaaaay better, but just about every spec other than the shader ops are lower, so I would look for a different card if possible. An 8600GT would be a better option.


----------



## Death

A 550W PSU for $60~ (CoolerMaster)

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11130AC9786

However, if I decide to just stay with DX9 with this PC, I will most definately get the 7600GT. I will also need 3GB for Vista (some games take almost 1.5GB with XP). For some reason, the Antec Trio 430W isn't on this website at the moment.


----------



## TheMatt

If you want to go with Cooler Master, look for the iGreen seres. You would also be better off with something like this:
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=13220AC0613&vpn=OCZ600GXSSLI&manufacture=OCZ


----------



## Kalim

For ~$60CAN you won't find a decent 500W+ PSU. Not a chance. :wink:


----------



## Death

How about a 500W PSU that won't blow up?


----------



## TheMatt

What do you mean?


----------



## Kalim

If you mean a 500W that won't be decent but won't exactly blow up, then you'll be risking your hardware to get damaged instead. :wink:


----------



## Death

Hmmm. How much watts would my rig need anyways? Is 430 good enough?


----------



## TheMatt

For a 7600GT or 7900GS, yes. For an ATI HD 2k series or nVidia 8k series, no. I would get 500w or 550w just so you have room for upgrades.

Also, are you going with the 65nm version of the 4200+? I would do that (or go with another 65nm AMD) if you want to stick with a 430w PSU.


----------



## Death

Yes, I will be going for the 65NM version, and a 7600GT.


----------



## TheMatt

Then a PSU like the 430w Antec Trio will be a good choice. The Antec Earthwatts series is also good and has a 430w version, but I would go with the Trio series instead if possible.


----------



## floydfan

dont assume cause the hd29xx series is power hungry that the 26xx is too... its made on a different process, and not power hungry at all... http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3023&p=4


----------



## TheMatt

The HD 2600 Pro is very good, but the HD 2600XT takes up more power than the 7600GT.


----------



## floydfan

yeah, by a few watts... the 7600gt is a ridiculously low power card since the max it eats is 36w, so it doesnt say much if it consumes more power...


----------



## Kalim

floydfan said:


> yeah, by a few watts... the 7600gt is a ridiculously low power card since the max it eats is 36w, so it doesnt say much if it consumes more power...


http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=3335&s=8

I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Don't go off just one review for all your answers. Each system differs and all electrical engineers or those educated in PSUs realize that. Max pulled there was 15W more than what you were saying it eats, and the numbers you're using are from X-bit labs review.


----------



## FreoHeaveho

That is what i have, i run crysis and such on medium and almost any other game at maximum and i have no worries.


----------



## FreoHeaveho

whoops, got ahead of myself there, sorry


----------

