# Fans VS Powersupply ??'s



## EquiNOX (Apr 22, 2006)

I have ULTRA 400watts power supply, and have 3 in-chassis fans, 1 CPU fan (Cooler Master Vortex 750).

I am unable to find all four fan wattages to determine if it is sufficent wattage in order for system to run... If that company didn't include that wattage on sticker or package.. does it mean I don't need to be concerned about cpu fan wattage?

Let say if in the future, I decide to add Blu-ray DVD/R/W rom into my system, I am afraid without knowing fan wattage, I couldn't determine total wattage..

Any tips or suggestion?


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## outermon (Jan 28, 2008)

Try http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine

It'll allow you to choose fans and Optical Drives, and uses standard wattages to calculate.


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## EquiNOX (Apr 22, 2006)

I am not sure why you posted the link for me to visit, I don't see how this can answer my question.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough from early post, maybe I wasn't elaborate. I'll rephrase....

As mentioned... I have 3 in-chassis fans, and a CPU fans... And all of these fans I have, do not have wattage labeled on the fan itself, It does not either labeled wattage on the package or on the manual. So technically I have no idea what these wattage are... Its for sure this fan runs 12v but at what wattage?

So the question is, If companies that manufactures these fan did not include wattage on the fan or manual and/or package. Does that mean, I should not be concerned about fan wattage?? In order to determine type of Power supply I could use.

For exampe... If I Purchase, DVD/R/W and it have maybe 35 watts... Now Do I need to Add up DVD/R/W watts with 3 in-chassis and CPU fan? or should I disregard it and focus on DVD/R/W watts plus other devices wattage such as another DVD/R/W ?


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

If you have anything newer than an AGP card I would be concerned about a 400W power supply. Fans don't draw a lot of wattage.

See this thread for answers on picking power supplies don't forget to add 30% to the total when you are done due to efficiencies.
http://www.techsupportforum.com/f210/power-supply-information-and-selection-192217.html


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## renaw (Jun 19, 2008)

Do the fan stickers specify the current draw? Usually they do, and you can multiply current in amps by 12 to get the power consumption in watts.

I've been keeping a log of fans for several years, and the largest power consumption I've seen on any of them is 3.6 watts. But I always try to buy low-speed, quiet fans. It's possible your fans use more than that, and if you have 4 of them running it might add up. I think that 400 watt Ultra power supply specifies 17 watts on the 12 volt supply.


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## EquiNOX (Apr 22, 2006)

wrench97: 


> If you have anything newer than an AGP card I would be concerned about a 400W power supply.


Ah! That's something comes to my attention now... 

I have Asus M2A-VM HDMI..
More info See Here
It do not have AGP but PCIe.. Its for sure I will be using on board video for now until I can build enough money for High End or nearly PCIe Vid Cards.

So my understanding...400w Power supply will be enough for what I need, at least for now??. Oh not to forget to mention this.. I will be using External DVD/R/W which it will be attached to USB ports and that would not require lot of power watts is that correct? 

Renaw... Thank you... I remember there was a way to find out wattage but I did not know how or perhaps know math formulas. Thanks, I just did all calculating...

Fan 1: 0.14A x 12 = 1.6 W
Fan 2: 0.15A x 12 = 1.8 W
Fan 3: 0.14A x 12 = 1.6 W
CPU Fan: Unsure
-------------------------------
Total 5W or more based on CPU fan

Ultra Power supply for +12 watts can handle up to 240 W and 7.2 W for -12. Sound like I don't need to worry about it at all eh?


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## patriothntr (May 29, 2008)

Fans are usually between 1-4 watts...4 being quite high. If you have an optical drive, it might hit 35 watts peak...

renaw I think you mean 17 amps on the 12v line...

OP: Don't worry too much about the fans...I do like the calculator that outermon posted...it gives a good general idea of consumption, and I recommend you give it a shot...and don't forget to add in capacitor age if it is an older unit...


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## renaw (Jun 19, 2008)

patriothntr said:


> renaw I think you mean 17 amps on the 12v line...


Oops.
Even as I said it, I was amazed that it could be so low as 17 watts -- what can you do with 17 watts? But the mouth moved on, unimpeded by the brain.
Yes, 17 amps. If you took out everything else and just packed the case full of fans, they probably wouldn't add up to 17 amps.


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## EquiNOX (Apr 22, 2006)

Duly noted now... Thank guys for help... 

patriothntr:
I know this calculator that outermon posted might be very helpful... But I am only building simple system board with limitation. Which means, no video cards or heavy add on rams will be in.

I will get to use that calculator whenever I get to build game system.

Again Thanks for help
Much appreciated


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

EquiNOX said:


> Duly noted now... Thank guys for help...
> 
> patriothntr:
> I know this calculator that outermon posted might be very helpful... But I am only building simple system board with limitation. Which means, no video cards or heavy add on rams will be in.
> ...


Don't forget to add in USB devises, Capacitor aging(as they age they lose efficiency) and last but not least if it's a 70% efficient PSU add another 30% to make up for the loss, This will give you a long life power unit for your system.


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

when you buy a new video card you will need a better PSU >>>> the Ultra's are very low quality !


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## shiftytech (Jul 9, 2008)

To give you an example, I am running a Dual Core AMD processor, with 1 DVD burner, 2 internal SATAII harddrives, 7 chassis fans (with LEDS... one being a 200mm, the rest 120mm's), and a PNY 8800GT video card. This is all powered by a Dynex 400W power supply. My computer runs cool, and achieves great frame rates in new games at 1920x1200 resolution, on all high settings. I would not recommend this, but as you see it can be done. I am upgrading to a 700W however in the next few days (already purchased) simply for the purpose of being able to install more fans, and for future upgradeability(some of the newer processors on the market are capable of operating at an ultra low 45W and with advancements in RAM and GPUs the power required for high performance devices is actually decreasing... although when you are running 2-3 video cards in SLI you will want all the power you can get). What you might want to look into is an additional power device that is simply meant to power your video card (they do make them, they can power up to 4 video cards and provide up to 400W of power). They should be well under $100.


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

the only standalone video card power supply I have seen so far is made by Thermaltake ..... it sits in a 5.25 inch drive bay and is rated for 250 watt @ PEAK and only 75% efficient ........ it over heats very easily too druing intense gaming (p2P player action is the worst strain) :4-thatsba

I found them to be big time trash / I thought when the 8800's first came out that these type units would be the salvation to my having to tell my gaming customers they needed to splurge on new bigger power supplies with big price tags

well I learned two things the hard way during two seperate instances / when that mini power supply trips (it has super crappy overvoltage protection) its joint / shared use of the grounding side of the computer electrical system damages the main PSU and or the motherboard and ram sticks >>>>> all of which Thermaltake didnt go good for replacement. 
They bailed out with the excuse "your main power supply must be too inadaquate to run the rest of the system / those where hard lessons learned; while trying to be cheap / froogle and save the customer money I ate an 8800GTX back when they were $650.00 and ate a $300.00 just released 680i asus MAX motherboard

as for newer components using less juice >>>>>> look at the consumption of the new Quads and especially at the new AMD multi cored cpu's ?????? 

then dont forget to factor in overclocking which is the whole reason why most guys want the new cpu's to begin with ; then show me that 45watts of power consumption ????????? 45watts is not max power consumption by any means

you want to see a real juice hog ........... *9800 GX2* the transformer at the rear of my office building buzzes less than that thing ! ROFL


I have replaced enough high performance / high priced parts resulting from crap power supplies to finance a nice two week vaction...... thats no fun thats wasted $$$$$$


I was amuzed the other day when I was reading a forum converation dealing with the troubles of trying to run 8800 GTX in SLI and how there are soooo few units that can really get the job done , NONE of the proven units were under 850 watts >>>>>>> therefore please explain how removing ONE video card can cut the power drain down by 50% .... the math is not supporting that equation

400 & 500 watt power supplies will run a gamer rig for a little while .......... but your car will run for a few miles without any radiator fluid too !!

and the results in the end are equal >>>>>> your new 700 watt power supply purchase is about on par as adding more radiator fluid when the red light came on ! ray::wave:


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## patriothntr (May 29, 2008)

Well, all this chat is kinda off topic...but since we're on it...

The AMD quad core chips that were just introduced have such high power levels b/c they are essentially factory OCed chips...pushed as high as they can by b/c AMD is trying to compete against intel...and on the other end of things AMD has taken the same chips and dropped their clocks and has very efficient chips. 

As far as power consumption goes http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=755 this looks like the e6750 pulls 95w @ load (and yeah, there's no video card to guzzle power)...this test also measures power from the wall...so that means the system is pulling 80 watts DC from the supply (if we assume 80+ is really working, which the guy doesn't). 

Cards do draw quite a bit of power, but this system doesn't have one, so no need to worry bout that...


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## dai (Jul 2, 2004)

if your running a pcie m/b you need a psu putting out 26a on the 12v line


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

dai said:


> if your running a pcie m/b you need a psu putting out 26a on the 12v line







that does rather cut to the chase ray:ray:


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## patriothntr (May 29, 2008)

26a total over the 12v lines I think you mean...seeing as how many PSU mfrs are still sticking to the specs which say 18a max on the 12v line, with multiple 12v lines...


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## dai (Jul 2, 2004)

yes over the multiple lines just remember when you total them up that's not what is availble for use


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

the Intel ATX spec is 20amps max per 12volt rail 

yes the 26amps is combined 12volt rails on multi railed units ......... although I still favor the one big 12volt rail like many of the high powered / high quality manufactures are producing ........ like seasonic and PC Power & Cooling


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## patriothntr (May 29, 2008)

mmm...I thought it was 18...ah well...what's 2 amps...

While Seasonic makes many (if not all...not positive on that one) PC power and cooling/corsair units, their own units continue to use the multi rail design. 

I have no personal preference towards either setup, though I do see the safety benefits of limiting the power...


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

Seasonic uses a tricky little method which makes their units "appear" to have isolated 12volt rails but when you see them actually draw more than 20amps off that 12volt leg / it becomes very evident as to the real deal

the single 12volt rail became necessay with video cards like the 8800 GTX and above power hogs, especially the sli combinations like that


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## EquiNOX (Apr 22, 2006)

Lindermann



> when you buy a new video card you will need a better PSU >>>> the Ultra's are very low quality !


Hmm, I am interesting to know what can a LQ PSU supply give effect to rest of system and components?

I been hearing things about suggesting a better PSU with fine brand name or higher prices? I mean Not everyone have $ to buy high/Top end PSU even if they are not game crazy.

Care to explain why is it best to get Better Q's PSU?


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

The specifications for the two Energy Plus models are identical except for the combined load on the +12V rail, just as it should be. In real use, this is really the only number that matters; real world conditions dictate that the vast majority of power is pulled from the +12V lines.

The fact that increased capacity only shows up as combined current on the +12V lines raises an interesting question: Just how separate are the four +12V lines. Some knowledgeable members of the SPCR forums have done some digging, and discovered that in reality there may only be one or two lines. The discussion is specifically about Seasonic's new M12 line and its rebranded twin from Corsair, but given its similarity to the Energy Plus series, many of the points apply equally to both series. Things get quite technical, but the summary is this:

Lines are only "separate" insofar as they have separate current limiters on each line. The original source is often (but not always) the same. 
The purpose of having multiple rails is to limit the total VA from one line to 240VA, which means a limit of 240VA ÷ 12V = 20A on each line. 
The circuit board does not identify contact points for either +12V3 or +12V4. 
One user has reportedly been able to draw as much as 30~40A from a single cable set, which should certainly have tripped a current limiter if the rails were actually as specified. We were able to perform a similar test on the Energy Plus. 
Only Seasonic knows for sure, but it seems quite likely that the four "separate" +12V lines are not separate at all, but are just there to satisfy the standard-setters at ATX12V and EPS12V. The practical consequences of having a single +12V rail are actually more positive than negative. While a small degree of safety is lost by isolating the rails, the convenience of not having to watch where each peripheral is plugged in outweighs the loss.


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

EquiNOX said:


> Lindermann
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The power supply needed depends on the spec of the system of course .............. but when you see low end power drawing specs supplied by builders like Dell, Gateway, Compaq etc etc etc come into the shop all the time with dead power supplies and dead motherboards resulting from those power supplies, please explain where the savings is in that equation ?

the number one killer of motherboards, memory sticks and hard drives is cheap defective power supplies ,,,,,,, like everything in life, you get what you pay for.


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## patriothntr (May 29, 2008)

aye, i had mentioned the "virtual" part in this post...you have a link to the SPCR article linderman? love a lil more reading...

OP: LQ PSUs are plain old bad news...they may work for a while, but will probably die on you sooner rather than later...and there is smaller chance of something else going as well. I have worked with many OEM computers (all mentioned above by linderman) and with stock components they tend to last okay...units left on die faster...the average life of a PC is limited. 

Stick with a brand known for PSUs and you'll probably be ok...Antec, FSP, Seasonic, etc...and you can get a lower wattage PSU for a lower end system and be fine...Also check out Toms Hardware's latest articles...one of their system builds uses a Silverstone 400w PSU to power a 8800gt SLI setup.


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## EquiNOX (Apr 22, 2006)

Lindermann: That's so True... I got your point! I am glad I you brought this up for my future knowledge.

PatriotHntr: Care to post link on article you re referring to?


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## patriothntr (May 29, 2008)

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/System-Builder-Marathon,1962-9.html


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article656-page1.html


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

My only beef with the Tom's Hardware article is; it gives readers a false sense of comfort that can use low wattage units on higher end specs. A 400 watt unit like the Silverstone can power the rig for awhile, but its pushing that power plant to its limits for sure; they should have been responsible enough to publish the air temps of the exaust from that power supply when gaming with it! I bet it would have made a good second choice for hair dryer 

another point of contention I have with the article is this :

review the big specs of the units which are labeled as "*Nivdea* SLI approved" for 8800GT's and 8800 GTX ........ then remove the power draw from the ONE extra card in that sli configuration from those sized "sli approved" units .................... does 400 and 500 watts end up as the answer to that equation ???????????????

http://www.slizone.com/object/slizone_build_psu.html

BTW: the PSU manuf has to bear the burden of cost for the Nvidea test qualification and it aint cheap .............. could well be called the "best of the best"

The Silverstone unit is a good quality unit for sure ...... but where is the savings in deliberately buying a silverstone 400 watt instead of say......... Toughpower 650 watt ?

I dont throw $$$$$ around either; if someone is tight for the budget, Hell; get a good high quality power supply that has muscle from the mwave.com / refurbs then if you have patience for one to be listed, you can get a toughpower 650, 700 or 750 or collermaster real power pro 650 or 750 for $80.00 or less ................. now beat that deal for that price .............


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## magnethead (Mar 18, 2006)

when i bought my toughpower, I planned ahead, knowing that i'm gonna leave the option out there to run 2 cards non SLI'd, and i didnt want to replace anything but the mobo when i did so. so i only looked at PSU's that had the SLI/crossfire designation.


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## patriothntr (May 29, 2008)

> review the big specs of the units which are labeled as "Nivdea SLI approved" for 8800GT's and 8800 GTX ........ then remove the power draw from the ONE extra card in that sli configuration from those sized "sli approved" units .................... does 400 and 500 watts end up as the answer to that equation ???????????????


sorry...i don't really understand what you're trying to say here...think i figured it out below...let me know if i misinterpreted...

As far as heat goes, any gaming unit with twin cards is going to produce a lot of heat, especially the 8800gt with it's "heat up the case" cooler. So long as the PWM fan cranks up, and you have adequate case ventillation, life is good...

Lets see....650 (kingwin)-(105 (8800gt) + ~55 (extra load of 8800gtx))=~500w. Like you were saying, the SLI certification is much harder to get than real life...making the SLI cert the uber supplies. 

You save money in a couple ways buyin the cheaper PSU. First you get the immediate savings...the 10-30 bucks less it costs...that's nothing special...but every bit is nice. Next is the power savings you will get over the next few years...Due to how the 80+ certs are given out, a PSU hit 20% load in order to get inside the efficiency curve. Say your computer is on, idling...Say you idle around ~150w...that means anything much bigger than 650w would put you outside that range...and start to hurt efficiency. 

Now I do think that Toms hardware was pretty close to the limit with those 2x 8800gt cards in SLI...I would probably have gone with something slightly larger...in the 500-550w zone...but there's plenty of power to run a single 8800gtx or 4850.


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## dai (Jul 2, 2004)

the corsair i recommend are single 12v rail and i would not use less than a 650 for 8800gt in sli


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## linderman (May 20, 2005)

I agree with you Dai / and such advice has kept me 100% out of the power supply problems with my warranties ......... I will never go back to the thin red line, it hurts the wallet too much


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