# Help with Surge protectors



## Gdn8Melbourne (Oct 28, 2011)

So last month after my brand new harddisk got lightning struck, (even when the pc had a separate grounding system), I'm thinking in investing in surge protectors. I chose two. One says has energy rating of 200 Joules and the other one has 714 Joules. But the later one is for 16amp plugs only. I use a ups too and I'm not sure what kind of plug it is. Manual long lost.
Also if I use a surge protector, where should I connect it? Between pc and ups or between mains and ups?


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## bassfisher6522 (Jul 22, 2012)

With surge protectors, the higher the jule rating the better the protection is. Your UPS should have surge protection built into it.


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

Good article on the subject: http://reviewsurgeprotector.com/ups-surge-protectors.html


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

If you look at the owner's manual for your UPS, it most likely says you should not use it with a surge and spike protector. 

IMO, you should just stick with a "good" UPS with AVR. Surge and spike protectors are little more than fancy and expensive extension cords. 

BTW, it is not likely lightning took out your hard drive but left everything else okay. When it comes to the components in your computer, hard drives are actually pretty robust - much more so than your CPU, RAM or the motherboard itself. If only the hard drive failed, then it sounds like the HD just decided it was time to fail.

That does not mean a power failure did not corrupt the data on the drive - but the UPS should have prevented a power failure from shutting down the computer - assuming the UPS is sized right and the batteries are still good (they need replacing about every 3 years).


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## sobeit (Nov 11, 2007)

just want to note, nothing will protect your computer and devices from lightning.


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

But unplugging helps: :rofl:


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## Gdn8Melbourne (Oct 28, 2011)

Bill_Bright said:


> If you look at the owner's manual for your UPS, it most likely............still good (they need replacing about every 3 years).


Well the hdd was 3 months old wd blue series. After the lightning, I found the LAN card and the hdd dead...
If it was not the lightning, then it makes my new harddisk buying even more confusing. I thought this blue series will last longer than my previous green series with the fancy no-touch technology of wd. There was some problem with the grounding (old house), but I made a new grounding just for the pc before installing the hdd. The PSU is not good but average. Now my pc runs on a live USB temporarily and I haven't experience any problem.
And the ups is mediocre and I changed the battery a year ago.
I can't figure out what else is the problem with the pc!



sobeit said:


> just want to note, nothing will protect your computer and devices from lightning.


God's wrath eh? 



Corday said:


> But unplugging helps: :rofl:


That day I was few minutes late to unplug I must confess. I naïvely thought the lightning will not harm it because of the new grounding system.


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## Confounded Also (Aug 19, 2015)

Gdn8Melbourne said:


> Now my pc runs on a live USB temporarily and I haven't experience any problem.
> 
> 
> That day I was few minutes late to unplug I must confess. I naïvely thought the lightning will not harm it because of the new grounding system.


My situation is similar. Lost three UPSs and a whole host of other stuff. Had this notebook running on wireless for some reason I forget now since storms weren't really expected. Almost everything else that was on the wired LAN got smoked; switches, LAN cards and ports, camera, etc.

Here's the odd thing. I have three external HDDs connected to this laptop via two daisy-chained USB hubs. Three when you count the laptop desk/cooler. Probably shouldn't work well, but it does, or did.

The Zap passed the HDDs and two of the hubs leaving them untouched and functional. The third, in the laptop desk/cooler (the one connected directly to the laptop) got smoked. If it had not been there as the weak link, the laptop may have been smoked via the USB port.

I guess I'll now have to remember to unplug the USB cables in the future too. At least any that go to hubs.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> I found the LAN card and the hdd dead...


Well, lightning is still a mysterious phenomenon. Now that we know more than just the drive was taken out, I am more inclined to believe some surge took it out. 

When you say the drive is dead, does the motor still spin? 



> If it was not the lightning, then it makes my new harddisk buying even more confusing. I thought this blue series will last longer than my previous green series with the fancy no-touch technology of wd.


I am not sure what you mean by that. Note that the Blue series is WD's "basic line" of SATA drives. That is not to suggest they are inferior, I am just saying that does not suggest they will last longer (or less) than Green.



> but I made a new grounding just for the pc before installing the hdd.


How? Did you have it tested? Did everything connected to this computer get power from the same outlet (thus with same "common ground")?

FTR, I urge every computer owner buy, or ensure access to a *AC Outlet Tester* to ensure your outlet is properly wired and grounded. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Walmart. And if a fault is shown, have it fixed by a qualified electrician.


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

Ditto. Knowing that the Electrical Contractors hired by home builders use trainees to pull wire and do the final work, before I moved in, I tested and found most of the outlets were improperly wired. I'm color blind (partially), but I can sure tell when the white wire isn't hooked up to neutral. I lend my tester out quite often. I guess friends can't afford less than 10 bucks.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> before I moved in, I tested and found most of the outlets were improperly wired.


I guess the building code inspector was too busy enjoying his free steak dinner somewhere.


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## Gdn8Melbourne (Oct 28, 2011)

Bill_Bright said:


> Well, lightning is still a mysterious phenomenon. Now that we know more than just the drive was taken out, I am more inclined to believe some surge took it out.
> 
> When you say the drive is dead, does the motor still spin?
> 
> ...


"I am not sure what you mean by that. Note that the Blue series is WD's "basic line" of SATA drives. That is not to suggest they are inferior, I am just saying that does not suggest they will last longer (or less) than Green."

They claim this technology is available only in wd blue and black. And green is specifically made for archiving process (less writing).






How? Did you have it tested? Did everything connected to this computer get power from the same outlet (thus with same "common ground")?

No. It was, but then I called the electrician and made him make a totally new grounding/earthing wire drawn from the wall socket and connect with a new ironrod in ground. No other socket is connected to it. It is like dedicated for this socket only. Before that, I couldn't touch my computer case on a rainy day. Now I can touch the computer anytime. So I guess the power leak problem is solved. But still the lightning affected the lan card twice.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> new ironrod in ground


I better be copper, not iron. 

And also, you should make sure everything connected to your computer goes through this dedicated socket - that includes your monitors, printer, attached devices, network gear, etc. This will ensure they are all at the same "common ground". 

No touch technology has nothing to do with enduring electrical surges and spikes.


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## Gdn8Melbourne (Oct 28, 2011)

Bill_Bright said:


> I better be copper, not iron.
> 
> And also, you should make sure everything connected to your computer goes through this dedicated socket - that includes your monitors, printer, attached devices, network gear, etc. This will ensure they are all at the same "common ground".
> 
> No touch technology has nothing to do with enduring electrical surges and spikes.


It's not copper that I know. It's iron.

And everything goes into UPS and then the UPS goes into the dedicated socket.


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

ADDITION; All houses should have 2 separate grounds as most U.S. code now requires. Mine are both in the ground. Some have 1 connected to a water pipe.


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## Gdn8Melbourne (Oct 28, 2011)

Corday said:


> ADDITION; All houses should have 2 separate grounds as most U.S. code now requires. Mine are both in the ground. Some have 1 connected to a water pipe.


Mine too. One is old like 20+ years and all the connections except mine goes there. Another one is new like few months and only connected to this socket. And both are inside the ground.

I told the electrician to put salt and ash too, he said it will wear off the earthing rod.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Gdn8Melbourne said:


> It's not copper that I know. It's iron.


Correct.......but it should be copper clad. Required length in my area is 8' long.....2.5 meters. 

Did your electrician check the outlets for reversed polarity?? The neutral is commonly bonded to exposed metal cases......if the polarity is reversed it will energize the metal case. I suspect that's why you were getting shocked on humid days.


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## Gdn8Melbourne (Oct 28, 2011)

SABL said:


> Correct.......but it should be copper clad. Required length in my area is 8' long.....2.5 meters.
> 
> Did your electrician check the outlets for reversed polarity?? The neutral is commonly bonded to exposed metal cases......if the polarity is reversed it will energize the metal case. I suspect that's why you were getting shocked on humid days.


Err I don't really know what he knows. He seems to know only the basic things. He still checks earthing with a bulb! But he is the only electrician in the area.

But yes, I touched the pc on painted and non-painted parts and even inside the case. No shock.

I have no big hope for the motherboard. It's antique. So it is very possible that it is leaking power.

My another theory is that the modem's power is connected to a different board which gets earth wire from the previous board and the modem's power is two pin and the current travels through the Ethernet and burns the LAN card everytime.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> ADDITION; All houses should have 2 separate grounds as most U.S. code now requires. Mine are both in the ground. Some have 1 connected to a water pipe.


Two (or more) ground entry points but they should be connected together too - most likely at the service panel. You don't want two grounds at different potentials. 

And most modern buildings don't connect to water pipes anymore because PVC piping is used. 

And yes, copper clad - not solid copper. My bad. Iron core is fine because electricity flows to the outer edge of conductors - this is known as a the skin effect. But it should still be copper as iron is a relatively poor conductor. 



Gdn8Melbourne said:


> And everything goes into UPS and then the UPS goes into the dedicated socket.


Then you don't need a surge protector. If you look at the manual for your UPS, I am sure you will see not to use a surge protector with it. This is because surge protectors often reshape the sine wave which can confuse the UPS.


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## Gdn8Melbourne (Oct 28, 2011)

Bill_Bright said:


> Two (or more) ground entry points but they should be connected together too - most likely at the service panel. You don't want two grounds at different potentials.
> 
> And most modern buildings don't connect to water pipes anymore because PVC piping is used.
> 
> ...


Hmm the UPS manual says not to connect any other surge protectors, but doesn't particularly say it has a surge protector. Btw, the UPS makes weird buzzing noise as long as it is on.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> but doesn't particularly say it has a surge protector.


I have never seen one that didn't have sockets supported by the batteries plus sockets that were surge and spike protected. 

What is the brand and model?

There are big transformers in UPSs - it is not uncommon for them to buzz.


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## Nei1 (Dec 19, 2006)

UPS vs. Surge protection? Can we not have both?

I looked at a manual for an old Back-UPS ES-350, and it didn't say anything about using an external surge protector or not.

Then I looked at a manual for an old Back-UPS ES-750, and it says, "Plug the Back-UPS ES power cord directly into a wall outlet; not a surge protector or power strip."

No explanation. The best explanation so far is from Bill Bright who said "This is because surge protectors often reshape the sine wave which can confuse the UPS."

I can't relate to that. If the voltage doesn't get high enough to cause the surge-protecting components (MOVs -- metal oxide varistors) to conduct, then they are essentially out of the circuit and can't effect the sine wave.

I wonder if Bill might be thinking of UPSs. If the AC goes out and the UPS is supplying AC from its battery storage, they don't deliver a smooth sine wave. Instead, they "build" a quasi-sine wave out of tiny steps, which is like a sine wave with a high-pitched squeal superimposed on it. Things like old CRT TVs and I think some motors didn't like the stepped square wave. I think most things today with switching power supplies, like computers, peripherals, and things that are powered by wall transformers don't care if the sine wave is a total mess. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the stepped sine wave seems like less and less of a problem as we get more and more modern, except for some motors, and maybe compressors like in air conditioners.

And I also have a theory about the statement about "no surge protectors or extension cords." I think the UPS manufacturers have the same concern as air-conditioner manufacturers. They just want to avoid voltage drops in skinny extension cords and another set of problematic AC plugs and sockets. But both manufacturing industries could do us a favor and except that if we add a surge protector or extension cord that's rated 15 amps / 1875 watts, then it's not going to do anything to make the UPS or the air conditioner look bad.

Check your newegg.com for surge protectors -- highfalutin extension cords? I don't think so. You can get surge protection on these consumer products at least up to 4000 joules. The few-hundred joules of protection in UPSs are a joke, nothing more than something they can put on the pretty carton to give it more marketing appeal so you'll take it off the shelf. After all, if the other manufacturers are adding surge protection, then they better do it to, or it won't look good. But that's not really the business they're in, so they only give you a token few-hundred joules.

Getting down to brass tacks, my method has been to plug the surge protecting highfalutin extension cord into the wall first, and then plug the UPS into it.

Then, when the lightning bolt causes the MOVs to conduct, and the MOVs short the megawattage to ground, the surge of current for those few milliseconds will come out of the wall, go through the surge protector, and go back into the wall.

But if you plug the UPS into the wall first, and then plug the surge protector into the UPS, then when the lightning strikes and the MOVs conduct, the surge current will have to flow through the UPS -- which has some delicate electronics -- before it can get to the surge protector and be shorted back into the wall, and of course it will have to go through the UPS a 2nd time in the process.

You might ask, in the arrangement where the UPS is plugged into the wall first, what happens to the MOVs in the UPS if there's a surge? Since they are low-joule devices compared to what's inside the surge protector, they would smoke, depending on how harsh the surge is. And then if there is still surge-voltage after the UPS's MOVs have given up their ghosts, then the MOVs in the surge protector would take over. The burnt MOVs in the UPS would smell like fire, but their MOVs burning up would not affect their operation, since MOVs fail "open." Unless they really catch fire...

I've been plugging surge protectors into wall sockets and UPSs into surge protectors for 15 years, and the hardware has never complained. But that doesn't mean I haven't been lucky and that I truly am doing it wrong, so I'll brace myself if anyone cares to tell me where I went astray.

On a tangent, other advantages of the Belkin surge protecting highfalutin extension cords is that they include an integrated AC-wiring test, with an LED to alert you if the wiring is wrong. And they include another LED that alerts you if the MOVs have absorbed too many surges and are no longer firing at their specified voltage, and therefore the highfalutin needs to be replaced. In my barebone-basic UPSs that are almost (half) as old as I am, they don't have either LED function. So, if you're relying on the UPS for surge protection, how do you know that function is still good or not?

In summary, no matter how much lightning protection you build in, there are some lightning bolts that are bigger than any of us, and it won't matter what protection you've instituted -- everything will be vaporized. But lightning isn't the only source of surges, and not all lightning hits you directly in the head, so having as much Joule-protection as possible is obviously the best strategy, and you're not going to get that from the little MOVs they put in UPSs.

It occurs to me that there's another method that will make both sides of the argument happy. Consider that when the surge voltage hits and the MOVs short out momentarily, by definition of "short," the voltage across the MOV is zero, and therefore the voltage between those two wires is zero. If you have a short between two wires so their voltage is zero, then the voltage at the next AC wall-socket a few feet away is going to be really small. The point is that by plugging a surge protector into the wall, there's a whole sphere of house wiring around the highfalutin that is protected from surges.

So my strategy is that I put a 4000 joule surge protector on my computer station. And I put one on each television setup with all their associated delicate electronics. And I found an AC wall socket wired directly to the circuit breaker box in the basement -- I plugged a surge protector into it, even though I don't have anything down there to plug into the surge protector. But the intention is that any surges coming from outside or from any circuit will get stopped by that surge protector and won't be able to find their way to any other circuits. And I check the LED a few times a year to see if it needs to be changed yet. After a couple of years, it's still good. About four 4000 joule surge protectors scattered around the house, preferably on different circuits, should really keep the whole house protected, unless a lightning hits you in the head.

I finally had one surge protector out of a dozen go bad, according to its LED, after about 5 years. Maybe it was a manufacturing defect. Your mileage may vary if you're in a lightning capital like Florida or Kansas, where you might have them fail more frequently.

Oh yeh, my strategy for making everyone happy... Plug the surge protector into the top AC wall socket. Then, plug the UPS into the bottom AC wall socket. That way, you're following the letter of the law by "not using a highfalutin extension cord" on your UPS, _and_ the UPS will enjoy true surge protection when the MOVs two feet away short out the surges.


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## nantucketbob (Oct 22, 2006)

For general surge protection, Tripp Lite has several very high quality units. Not cheap, $100 range. They work well; I can explain. There are also whole-house surge protection systems that attach to the breaker panel; I have a very old one.

Talk to an electrician about installing lightening protection to your breaker panel (distribution panel). They work. Sometimes lightening strikes a utility pole up the street and the surge comes into your house. That's when these work well. 

Consider having your house lightening protected, especially if your house is the highest object around, or has metal antennas, etc., an expensive option that becomes inexpensive if you get hit. 

The best option is to unplug your computer system during a lightening storm, a good reason to have a multi-outlet Tripp Lite device. I have strip outlets plugged into mine. I have no connection with Tripp Lite except as a consumer. (There are other lightening rules, like don't take a shower during a lightening storm, stay off the land line, etc. Lightening can strike 10 miles in front of a storm, before the rain comes!)


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## Nei1 (Dec 19, 2006)

Roger all nantucketbob.

OK the whole-house surge protection system. Cool.

This would be a good time to mention that the house-ground has to be in good shape, so surge currents from surge protectors can be sunk effectively.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Nei1 said:


> I can't relate to that. If the voltage doesn't get high enough to cause the surge-protecting components (MOVs -- metal oxide varistors) to conduct, then they are essentially out of the circuit and can't effect the sine wave.
> 
> I wonder if Bill might be thinking of UPSs.


I am afraid you misunderstood what I was saying. I should have been more clear. 

That problem is not when your mains is supplying a perfect 110VAC sine wave. As you noted, the MOVs are essentially out of the circuit at that point. The problem is when a surge or spike comes through that is above the threshold of the MOV trigger point, the MOV "clamps" the waveform, in effect, it just chops off the tops (peaks) of the wave form. It does not "regulate" the voltage as surge and spike protectors are "passive" devices - not "intelligent". The resulting chopped wave form can be seen by the UPS as very "dirty", signaling the UPS to kick over to batteries when the surge and spike protector is on the UPS input side.

So what happens (and what I said - or should have said) is that will force the UPS to kick over to batteries needlessly and much more often than it should because without the surge and spike protector, the UPS' AVR, which are "active" ("intelligent") devices, would have just cleaned up the waveform and not needed the batteries to kick in. 

It is a fallacy to assume having a UPS and a surge and spike protector offers better protection - assuming you use a "good" UPS with AVR. You don't need a surge and spike protector when you have a "good" UPS with AVR.



Nei1 said:


> And I also have a theory about the statement about "no surge protectors or extension cords."


Who said "no extension cords"? I never said that. In fact, I have said if you need more outlets, use an extension cord on the UPS output and NOT a surge and spike protector. But for sure, don't use cheap 20awg cord either. I currently have a short, heavy duty extension cord connected to my UPS to connect the big, space hogging power blocks for my network devices and USB hub. 



> Check your newegg.com for surge protectors -- highfalutin extension cords? I don't think so.


Yes. Highfalutin rip offs! As I said, a surge and spike protector is little more than a fancy and expensive extension cord. 

What happens when an "excessive" surge or spike comes through a surge and spike protector? Its circuit breaker trips and your computer comes crashing down, along with your network potentially destroying your data and corrupting your hard drive! :frown: :angry:

What happens when a dip (opposite of spike) or (sag opposite of surge) or brown out (long duration sag) comes through your surge and spike protector? Extra strain and stress (and the associated heat) is put on the power supplies and regulator circuits for your computer, monitor and network gear. :frown:

What happens when an "excessive" dip or sag or brown out (below 90/180VAC) comes through your surge and spike protector? Your computer comes crashing down, along with your network potentially destroying your data and corrupting your hard drive! :frown: :angry:

So for many high voltage anomalies, surge and spike protectors have limited capabilities, and for low voltage anomalies, even the best surge and spike protector is totally useless and a waste of money. But a "good" UPS, on the other hand, will take those anomalies in stride with aplomb and automatically regulate the voltage with their intelligent circuits and/or cutover to battery backup when those anomalies are extreme or long lasting.

As for "whole house" protectors natucketbob mentions, those are great for excessive high-voltage events coming off the grid, but again, they do absolutely nothing for low-voltage anomalies. 

And it must be remembered that not all anomalies originate from the grid. Air conditioners, refrigerators, microwave ovens, and $15 1500W hair dryers can introduce anomalies into the circuit too - especially if faulty.



nantucketbob said:


> The best option is to unplug your computer system during a lightening storm


Absolutely true! Nothing can protect you from a direct lightning strike but total isolation.



Nei1 said:


> This would be a good time to mention that the house-ground has to be in good shape, so surge currents from surge protectors can be sunk effectively.


Excellent point and why I recommend every home and computer user should have access to a *AC Outlet Tester* to ensure your outlet is properly wired and grounded. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Walmart. And if a fault is shown, have it fixed by a qualified electrician.


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## cyberrider1 (Oct 13, 2011)

Wouldn't installing a GFI socket be the hot ticket? Wouldn't it trip in a surge situation?


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## Nei1 (Dec 19, 2006)

*GFI*

GFI compares the current coming out of the Hot wire to the current going back into the Return (Neutral) wire.

If the Return is missing some electrons, the assumption is that they are off electrocuting someone, so the GFI switches off.

That's an entirely different function than:
a) voltage surge protection, and 
ii) overcurrent protection (circuit breaker)

-n-


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## Red Raspberry (Jan 16, 2014)

Your ground should only be at one point where it actually meets the earth. Don't know how the ground is set up. Neutral should also be tied to the ground at the panel.


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## RobRoy1971 (Sep 2, 2008)

Gdn8Melbourne said:


> Well the hdd was 3 months old wd blue series. After the lightning, I found the LAN card and the hdd dead...
> If it was not the lightning, then it makes my new harddisk buying even more confusing. I thought this blue series will last longer than my previous green series with the fancy no-touch technology of wd. There was some problem with the grounding (old house), but I made a new grounding just for the pc before installing the hdd. The PSU is not good but average. Now my pc runs on a live USB temporarily and I haven't experience any problem.
> And the ups is mediocre and I changed the battery a year ago.
> I can't figure out what else is the problem with the pc!
> ...


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## RobRoy1971 (Sep 2, 2008)

There was some problem with the grounding (old house), but I made a new grounding just for the pc before installing the hdd.

Are you a licensed electrician or do you know one? As a utility worker I can say that I have run into many problems with people who have grounded their home. A copper main that person has grounded their house to, remove the water meter and all of a sudden you have a hot copper pipe at 120VAC. Does your wall outlets have a three prong or a two prong plug? I agree with others your UPS should have sucked up the surge.


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## Catullus (Jun 1, 2014)

Bill_Bright said:


> Two (or more) ground entry points but they should be connected together too - most likely at the service panel. You don't want two grounds at different potentials.
> 
> And most modern buildings don't connect to water pipes anymore because PVC piping is used.
> 
> ...


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## Catullus (Jun 1, 2014)

The subject of grounding, (earthing) is greatly misunderstood, it is assumed by the less-knowledgeable to be simple, well, it's not. Faulty grounding is responsible for many 'mysterious' problems in electronic systems. The concept of multiple grounding rods is acceptable ONLY if all of the rods are solidly connected together in parallel using connectors individually capable of safely passing the maximum expected fault current. Ideally the connectors and rods should be connected in a star configuration with the contact point to the loads as a single point at the centre of the star. This may sound simple, but there are many complexities hidden in that simple statement.

The average house electrician has very little idea about building a good grounding system. Nor does the average builder want to spend the money to do a good job that will give satisfactory performance over a long period. Remember, the lowest bidder gets the job!

Skin effect is not a consideration at a.c. supply frequencies, hopefully you do not have R.F. on your a.c.power grounding network. The depth of current penetration into a conductor is inversely proportional to the applied frequency; the higher the frequency, the less the penetration of the current into the conductor. Yes, at modern CPU clock frequencies it is a major design consideration on circuit boards of any very high frequency electronics. I worked on radar systems as an R&D engineer for many years and I can assure you that RF grounding in high power systems is a speciality all on its own.

The major reason for having copper plating on an iron grounding rod is to prevent corrosion of the rod surface, iron and steel corrode rapidly in moist soil, the corrosion products (rust) on the surface of the rod are a poor electrical conductor, if the soil is not damp, then your grounding system is not going to work well. if you live in an area with a very dry climate, e.g the USA South West or similar, then it is a good idea to water the area around your ground rods, say once a week. You don't need potable water, a bowlful of used dish-washing water will work just fine.

Some simple rules:

DO NOT daisy-chain grounding connections.
All grounding connectors must terminate at the same point, that point must be connected directly to the system ground reference.
Ensure that grounding connectors can safely pass the maximum likely fault current.
PLEASE, NO twisted wire connections, intermittent conductivity will lead to some really interesting fault finding sessions.
Buy and use an a.c. outlet tester, they are inexpensive and simple to use by the unskilled. You might save yourself an unpleasant experience.

Buy or borrow a digital multimeter, (Go to Harbor Freight, cheap and good enough hand held DMM for a few dollars.) Measure the resistance between the grounding points on your equipment and the single point where ALL of your equipment grounds terminate, (hopefully), if you get more than 1 or 2 ohms, you need better grounding cable. If you don't know how to do this kind of measurement properly, find a knowledgeable friend familiar with electrical measurements.

I hope this mini dissertation helps.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Good comment though I disagree with this,


> The major reason for having copper plating on an iron grounding rod is to prevent corrosion of the rod surface


The main reason for having copper plating is copper is a great conductor, iron and steel are not in comparison. And skin effect indeed is why you can have copper "plating" instead of solid copper grounding rods. 

I also agree multiple rods should be connected together. I said that is "_most likely at the service panel_" because that is typically where it is done. But they should also be connected directly together and not just at the service panel. But as you noted, the lowest bidder likely did the work.


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## Red Raspberry (Jan 16, 2014)

Grounding versus Bonding

More grounding talk than you can stand.....


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## Catullus (Jun 1, 2014)

Do not confuse bonding and grounding, bonding ensures continuity but does not necessarily result in grounding.


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## Red Raspberry (Jan 16, 2014)

Catullus said:


> Do not confuse bonding and grounding, bonding ensures continuity but does not necessarily result in grounding.


Which is what the link above discusses.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Catullus said:


> bonding ensures continuity


No it doesn't. Now you are confusing ground bonding to connection bonding. 

*Bonding ensures a "common ground"* so you don't have a difference of potentials in the "grounds" between two (or more) different wall outlets. Ensuring this does not happen is what I was alluding too way back on October 9th in post #19 when I said "_the ground entry points should be connected together too_" because "_you don't want two grounds at different potentials_." 

If, for example, you have your computer powered through one outlet and your monitor is powered through a different wall outlet, if the two wall outlets are not "bonded" together, you could have voltage flowing between the computer and monitor. This you could measure could feel (if the potentials were high enough) if you put your hand on the metal computer case and on the metal chassis of the monitor. 

It is this lack of a common ground which typically results in "noise" audio and analog video signals, among other problems such as excessive EMI/RFI. 

"Continuity" is all about resistance through the actual connection between conductors. If the connection (where the wire is screwed to the socket) is loose and/or full of dirt and corrosion, you will have lousy continuity (high resistance). If the connection is tight, clean and secure, you will have great continuity (zero resistance) through the connection.

Soldering is a type of connection bonding. If the solder joint was poorly made, or is cracked, you will have bad continuity (high resistance) through that connection. If the solder joint is good, you will have good continuity.


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## animal99 (Aug 11, 2009)

I can absolutely agree about using a WHOLE HOUSE Surge Protector... they cost so LITTLe (Less than $200, in some cases) and can protect your WHOLE house's electronics upto 50 kA spikes or more (about 100,000-250,000 Joules protection), even the heavy draw stuff like AC, Refridgerator, Stove's and Clothes dryers electronics at the same time.

Most houses today have modern Kitchen and Laundry appliances that are full of electronics... these, too, can be hurt by electrical surges and spikes - not just your computers and stereo's. A whole house Surge protector is amazingly cheap compared to having to buy one of those appliances. And if you check your current warranties for these electronics-rich Appliances - they are NOT covered for damage from Electrical Surges and SPIKES!

If you're mildly handy, and can TURN OFF the power coming into your electrical panel, THEN you can wire in your own Whole House Surge Protector - all it takes is 3 or 4 wires (2 to existing circuit breakers, and one or two to GROUND). Once you're done with the wiring, Turn Power back on and you're DONE! Or you can hire an electrician to do it.. it's only about 10 minutes of work.

And As for plugging in a UPS... Most literature says you can now plug in a UPS Into a SURGE protector... it's the best way. A surge Protector to protect against SPIKES and a UPS to protect against BROWN Outs (Low Voltage dips).

I put one in about 7 years ago and have NOT lost one electronic item in all that time... and I live in a Lightning prone area, atop a hillside community. We get lighting hits nearby at least once a week... so I can attest to their effectiveness. Previously I lost at least 1 portable phone or other electronic item each storm season, for the first 3 years we lived here. The last item lost was rather expensive so I figured I had to do something about it!

I set out to protect myself and my family from future power issues - So I now have a Whole House Surge protector (Intermatic) and all 3 computers and 3 TV's are plugged into their own UPS's (One per TV, Computer and 1 per Living room lamp for endurance during blackouts and temporary power outtages). Yes, it's expensive but not really... considering we hardly notice a storm is in the area anymore... and we never see the living room lights flicker during power outtages (everything stays on for hours after we lose power).

I recommend the INTERMATIC PANEL GUARD (#IG1240RC3), it's rated for Type 1 & Type 2 Surge protection, and works for either 120v or 240v - That's important because that means you can connect to protect everything connected to your electrical panel, whether you use 120 volt or 240 volt . It mounts under panel (if your panel is outdoors - or you can get one to fit inside with a kit), so you can see the Lit up LED that says it's still Protecting your equipment and comes with a 5 year warranty. 

Whatever one you get, get it soon!


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## Red Raspberry (Jan 16, 2014)

My electric company offers whole house lightning and surge suppression. I personally have a lighting suppressor attached to my panels across the two hot leads.

Here's the current version of it










GE THQLSURGE


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

animal99 said:


> And As for plugging in a UPS... Most literature says you can now plug in a UPS Into a SURGE protector... it's the best way


Ummm, no, but sorry. That is not correct at all. 

Even as noted by several posters in this thread, the literature that came with their new UPS says do NOT use with a surge and spike protector. 

APC, the leading maker of UPS is quite clear on this. See the APC knowledge base FAQ, Using surge strips with APC's Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products. The article explains in detail, but here are some of the highlights


> Issue: What is Schneider Electric's policy for using surge strips with the APC Back-UPS and APC Smart-UPS product families?
> 
> Schneider Electric recommends against the use of any surge protector, power strip or extension cord being plugged into the output of any APC Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products.
> 
> ...


CyberPower General UPS FAQs,


> *Can I hookup a surge strip to the UPS unit?*
> Surge strips cannot be installed before OR after the UPS unit. Doing so will void the UPS’s warranty. If you require additional units, please upgrade your UPS to a unit that has more outlets. If you need a longer input cord, you can purchase a UL certified extension cord that is rated for the respective current of the unit. This cord MUST be a single-outlet extension cord.


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## Catullus (Jun 1, 2014)

animal99 said:


> I can absolutely agree about using a WHOLE HOUSE Surge Protector... they cost so LITTLe (Less than $200, in some cases) and can protect your WHOLE house's electronics upto 50 kA spikes or more (about 100,000-250,000 Joules protection), even the heavy draw stuff like AC, Refridgerator, Stove's and Clothes dryers electronics at the same time.
> 
> You might want to contact your local electricity supply company and enquire whether or not they can and will install a heavy duty surge and spike protector at the input to the electricity meter feeding your house.
> My local supplier is Avista and I had such a device installed by them many years ago, with complete success I might add. No problems, no blown up electrical and electronic equipment. Prior to that installation we experienced major damage to some of our equipment during a thunderstorm whist we were away from home.


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## Aus_Karlos (Mar 10, 2007)

Alright so i thought i might add my two cents to the conversation. 

Ive perused though the USA NEC2011 Electrical handbook on Earthing and Grounding systems. First of all no wonder electrics is confusing over there (Im from Australia) . 
As you have stated your house is +20 year i'd start checking for corrosion around the bonding of your water pipe that exits your premises, also the dedicated Earth Rod by the main Electrical switch board. If you have a CATV system installed (Cable i think it is) it many have an *Intersystem Bonding* between their own earth rod to your house main earth rod. Check the connection on the rods for corrosion. If there is a break in this connection or it has poor contact it can lead to a potential voltage on your Earth which can give you little zaps when you touch a metal case.
If you have a lightning rod installed (hopefully by and Electrician) it must be connected to your Main Earth Rod by a clap and only to your Main Earth Rod.

In your other post about your HDD thread you mentioned a separate circuit with its own earth rod. This is still a no no in your country.
You may run your PC and UPS system on its own circuit but it must still use the same Earth return as the rest of your house. Adding another earthing rod will only cause more issues especially if its earthed from the nearest socket outlet and not the link in the electrical switchboard. Doing so can cause a potential voltage between the two rods and can result of actual voltage been present on your earthing system.

On a final note. Nothing protects against lightning, you can take steps to minimize the risk of equipment damage not nothing is 100% lighting proof. Your talking about 500 megajoules of energy or 30,000 amps. That stuff doesn't need a cable to travel down it ionizes the air.

Edit - Forgot to mention if you do find corrosion the only reasonable cause of action you can take is to call an Electrician to fix it. Unless the rules for Domestic maintenance are different there. In the UK your allowed to modify and maintain your own house wiring while in Australia you need an Electrician.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Thanks for reiterating much that has already been said into one succinct post. 



> First of all no wonder electrics is confusing over there


Actually, it's not. The Laws of Physics are the same here as they are there. But the building codes are confusing because they are not standardized across the country, and because many facilities are grandfathered in. 

Folks who have been formally trained, however, all have the same understanding of how electricity flows through circuits, and the difference between "floating", "common" and "Earth" grounds, and the dangers of the "difference in potentials" when grounding to two different Earth grounds. But of course, most folks don't have formal training in this area. And others who feel they are experts are not. 

I would like to comment on one thing you said however. You talked about water pipes that "_exit_" your building. "_Drain_" pipes should not be used for grounding. Metal, cold water "_supply_" pipes - pipes "_entering_" the building must be grounded within 6 feet of that entry point (even though the pipes have been running in the ground for some distance already). But even though they have been grounded, cold water pipes should not be used to ground your electronics. Of course new homes use plastic supply pipes but even in older homes there is a good chance plastic piping has been used somewhere during repairs, upgrades or remodeling. That is, unless inspected by a qualified and certified electrician, there may be no "continuity" to earth ground, and that pipe may not be properly grounded/bonded to the service panel either. 

In other words, even in older homes, the water pipes should not be used to supply a ground. If your older home still has two prong outlets (no separate ground wire), you really should have the home's wiring upgraded to code.


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

The NEC (National Electrical Code) is adopted by most states/cities but amended by each as they see fit. As a retired construction association exec, I often witnessed arguments between Electric Contractors and Code Officials as to interpretations.


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## Red Raspberry (Jan 16, 2014)

In the US Mike Holt is probably the foremost expert on the electric code. He has a forum that is most informative.

Mike Holt's Forum


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## Red Raspberry (Jan 16, 2014)




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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

The 10 Worst Grounding Mistakes You'll Ever Make


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## Gdn8Melbourne (Oct 28, 2011)

I was following this thread regularly, trying to understand the technical points you all were saying. I stopped to post to clear a common confusion. I'm not from Australia or US or UK.

Anyways, I have to understand what's wrong to explain it to my electrician. But one thing is strange that the electric bills are coming high, though nobody has any idea how. Might be for those voltage leaking things?!

But I'm learning a lot from all of your discussion. Please continue.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

> But one thing is strange that the electric bills are coming high, though nobody has any idea how. Might be for those voltage leaking things?!


Not likely. Those type issues don't normally show up as something that noticeable on your bill. 

If your bills are abnormally high, then you need to see what is consuming it. It could be your neighbor has tapped into your service and stealing power from you! :frown:

What you might do is flip all the breakers in your service panel then look at your meter to see if it is still moving. You cannot just turn everything off in the house because so many devices still consume power in standby mode. 

I don't know your weather now, but air conditioners consume lots of energy, so do refrigerators which are typically the highest energy consumers in the house. If either is low on Freon or whatever coolant they use, they will be cycling on and off a lot, and consuming a bunch of energy. 

If cool outside now, and you heat with electricity, that will sure run up the bill, especially if your home is not well insulated.


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## robarnold (Aug 19, 2012)

Hi,
As a tech who is regularly called out on site to deal with the after affects of lightening storms I would just point out that most of the damaged computer equipment I deal with has been zapped via the TELEPHONE CABLES not the electrical system. A simple diagnosis is that if only your IT gear and none of the other electrical equipment in your property are affected then it is your phone line and your computer gear gets the charge
from telephone cables via modem/router and then via the lan cables. ( Your post #18 seems to suggest this)
You can (and should) have a surge protector between phone socket and your equipment. But best practice is to disconnect from phone socket at times of electrical storms.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Rob


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