# Changing careers from business to software eng/dev because of dress code aversion



## tripleCitizen (Mar 3, 2012)

I graduated almost a year ago with a degree in Industrial Engineering. Since then I’ve had a job that requires a business casual dress code (no surprise with my degree). Since my childhood I’ve had a severe subconscious aversion/anxiety disorder with formal clothing fabrics, buttons and collars. Conditioning/systematic desensitization did not help. I estimate that my discomfort caused by business casual dress codes is equivalent to a annual monetary loss of about $10,000 to $30,000 post-tax; it’s about equivalent to half the typical discomfort of constantly hearing/watching fingernails scratching a chalkboard.

Because there are a lot of software engineer/developer jobs out there that enable you to come to work in casual attire, I want to change my career path.

The following options present themselves to me (ranked according quick judgment):

1. Master’s Degree in Computational Science and Engineering from the Berkeley - Specialization in Simulation/Modeling with data analysis and some scientific algorithms: Difficulty: Hard, Opportunity Cost: -$80,000, Starting Salary: $77,000
2. Bachelor’s Degree in Computer Science from CalTech: Difficulty: Medium, Opportunity Cost: -$115,000, Starting Salary: $60,000
4. Distance Learning Degree from Baker College (web development or CS or DBA) or other distance learning +certifications for various technologies: Difficulty: Easy, Opportunity cost: -$35000 (plus -$80000 if not working), Starting salary: no idea
Opportunity cost refers to the cost of the studies (including potential living expenses) and the lost salary during years of study.

I’m frugal: I invest almost everything that doesn’t go into living expenses.

The objective is: maximize profit. The constraint is: have a very high chance of getting a job that allows casual attire when applying to a random sample of relevant jobs.
Please state factors that I ignored, a general recommendation, or a pointer for a forum/professional-group/organization that has more relevant information. The key question to hone into is probably: Will a graduate degree in Computational Science & Engineering (Specialization in Simulation/Modeling with data analysis and some scientific algorithms) offer close to the same odds of a casual dress code job as a generic CS degree?

I posted this thread in another forum. Please do not judge it as spamming - I simply want to maximize my chances of getting a good answer. Furthermore, I know there are people who simply can’t understand how severe an anxiety disorder to something so trivial can be - please refrain from that short and banal post.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

You're making this much more difficult than it is. If you want to be a programmer, learn to program. You don't need a degree, but a degree program will certainly help in your programming studies, and it can make you look more attractive to employers. However, pursuing a degree will cause you lose out on years of experience (unless you work while you're going to school, which I would wholeheartedly recommend if you can swing it). Someone with four years of experience is always going to come out on top over someone with a four-year degree and no experience (assuming the job does not require a degree, which many programming jobs do not). And you *really* don't need a grad degree. Not to be a programmer.

Here's a HUGE warning: do NOT base what you THINK your starting salary's gonna be based on what college you go to. From my experience, it doesn't matter what degree you have; it matters what job you do. And if you want to be a programmer, you'll probably start out at an entry-level programmer's salary.

Here's another HUGE warning: during the interview (or even worse, BEFORE the interview!), don't tell the employer you MUST wear casual clothes every day - that's a quick way to get your resume headed for the trash pile. Just take a look around and see what the other employees are wearing. If it looks as if they're wearing clothes that might work for you, then you're good to go. If not, chalk up the interview as experience and take it from there.

Hopefully you can deal with looking presentable during an interview... no matter what the dress code is in the office, I wouldn't recommend showing up for an interview in casual clothes. 

Hope this helps.


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## tripleCitizen (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks for your helpful response 

However, I have to say almost every coding job has in its job description requirements:
Bachelor in Computer Science

The key question is whether a grad degree in something that's a little bit remote from software engineering (scientific computing) will qualify me for those kind of jobs just as well as a BS. in CS or a distance learning degree.

I know I can learn it all by myself with enough dedication at time, but the problem is marketing that skill without a degree.


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## Old Rich (May 31, 2007)

I don't know how your current employer defines Business Casual, but most places here it includes golf shirts and kakie pants . . some even allow bluejeans. It might be easier to look for an employer with a more relaxed defination of Business Casual than to change careers completely.


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## tripleCitizen (Mar 3, 2012)

Unfortunately, golf shirts and kakie pants are part of my disorder. Jeans and tshirt is what I need.

Just curious: What kind of dress code does MS have for coders?


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

They have that in their job descriptions because having a BS in Computer Science means that you can program. If you have an unrelated degree, yet can prove your competency with programming (by providing code samples), then the degree you have will be perfectly acceptable to many employers. If you can code, that'll be all the marketing you need to "prove" yourself.

If you feel that your studies and degree won't be enough, and/or you feel you need to pursue the degree to give you solid grounding, by all means, get a BS in Computer Science. No need to get anything more than that, is there? Again, don't make this harder than it really is... 

I have no idea whether a MS in Computational Science is going to give you the skills you need to be a programmer. If it doesn't, then it's probably not going to help you any more than your current degree will. If it does, then it will probably require that you take several prerequisite undergrad programming classes - classes that you'd be taking if you were pursuing a BS in Computer Science degree. Meaning, it'll probably take you longer than you thought it would.

Two questions for you to consider...

Limiting your job search to only companies that will allow you to wear jeans and a T-shirt might make it very difficult to find employment, considering the current state of the economy. Have you considered going into business for yourself?

People who get into programming solely for the money quickly find themselves burnt out on a job they don't truly enjoy. If your heart is (was) in industrial engineering, what makes you think that you will enjoy programming? I'm not implying that you don't have the desire... I'm simply wanting you to do a little self-examination before you sink tens of thousands of dollars and years of time into another degree.


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## tripleCitizen (Mar 3, 2012)

BosonMichael said:


> They have that in their job descriptions because having a BS in Computer Science means that you can program. If you have an unrelated degree, yet can prove your competency with programming (by providing code samples)


That's good to know.



BosonMichael said:


> If you feel that your studies and degree won't be enough, and/or you feel you need to pursue the degree to give you solid grounding, by all means, get a BS in Computer Science. No need to get anything more than that, is there? Again, don't make this harder than it really is...


How am I making it harder? (this sounds confrontational but is not meant that way)



BosonMichael said:


> I have no idea whether a MS in Computational Science is going to give you the skills you need to be a programmer. If it doesn't, then it's probably not going to help you any more than your current degree will. If it does, then it will probably require that you take several prerequisite undergrad programming classes - classes that you'd be taking if you were pursuing a BS in Computer Science degree. Meaning, it'll probably take you longer than you thought it would.


There are 1-3 undergrad electives that I'd have to take, but they are all low-level scientific computing classes (scientific algorithms, FORTRAN and so on).



BosonMichael said:


> Limiting your job search to only companies that will allow you to wear jeans and a T-shirt might make it very difficult to find employment, considering the current state of the economy. Have you considered going into business for yourself?


I think it's easy to find a job that allows this: My CS friends told me that the majority of CS graduates find jobs where you can come in with jeans+tshirt.

I have nothing to sell to go into business myself.



BosonMichael said:


> People who get into programming solely for the money quickly find themselves burnt out on a job they don't truly enjoy. If your heart is (was) in industrial engineering, what makes you think that you will enjoy programming?


I love coding. I actually did some scripting as a side job during school and I enjoyed it. I didn't do CS because I thought everything was going to be outsourced by Asian companies. I have to say, though: Generally, there is not much variation among different jobs w.r.t. to the enjoyment I would get out of them, so the fact that I enjoy coding doesn't mean that I would drop six figures just for that reason. But I have to say I'd probably enjoy it more than other occupations, but not by much. 

And even if I didn't like it, I think it would still be justified to drop six figures for having a decent chance of not experiencing the discomfort of a formal dress code. I know it sounds ridiculous to people but this really is almost equivalent to constantly hearing/watching nails on a chalkboard - I cringe all the time. It's hard for people to understand who don't have this condition..it makes me miserable to a very high degree where I can't focus and I don't really see the point anymore.

Thanks for your support, Michael.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

tripleCitizen said:


> How am I making it harder? (this sounds confrontational but is not meant that way)


By overanalyzing everything... opportunity costs, salary expectations (which won't change simply because you have a different degree), etc. If the job listing says that a BS in Computer Science is required, then a MS in something different isn't going to help you any more than your current degree. That's all I meant. 



tripleCitizen said:


> I think it's easy to find a job that allows this: My CS friends told me that the majority of CS graduates find jobs where you can come in with jeans+tshirt.


My point isn't that it will be difficult to find a job where you can come in with jeans and a T-shirt... my point is that it will be difficult to find a job, period. Limiting your search to certain companies only makes it more so.



tripleCitizen said:


> I have nothing to sell to go into business myself.


If you can code, you can sell yourself and your coding ability.



tripleCitizen said:


> And even if I didn't like it, I think it would still be justified to drop six figures for having a decent chance of not experiencing the discomfort of a formal dress code.


Suit yourself, but I wouldn't spend $100,000 on any degree, particularly if I wasn't absolutely certain that I would like it. And even then, there are far more affordable options; it didn't cost me 100 large to get my degree.


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## tripleCitizen (Mar 3, 2012)

BosonMichael said:


> By overanalyzing everything... opportunity costs, salary expectations (which won't change simply because you have a different degree), etc. If the job listing says that a BS in Computer Science is required, then a MS in something different isn't going to help you any more than your current degree. That's all I meant.


Fair.



BosonMichael said:


> My point isn't that it will be difficult to find a job where you can come in with jeans and a T-shirt... my point is that it will be difficult to find a job, period. Limiting your search to certain companies only makes it more so.


Not for high GPA people from Tier 1 universities! Even in the economic slump of 2008-2009 the worst CS GPA's I know of (2.0-3.0) at my university *all* found jobs. My GPA was 4.0 and I fully expect to be able to maintain that anywhere there is fair competition & professors. I'm not especially intelligent, but I know how to study and I am diligent.



BosonMichael said:


> If you can code, you can sell yourself and your coding ability.


With your qualifications, perhaps  It's a lot harder to do as somebody who has not yet been able to prove himself. Especially marketing yourself is tough. It's doubly tough without any credentials.





BosonMichael said:


> Suit yourself, but I wouldn't spend $100,000 on any degree, particularly if I wasn't absolutely certain that I would like it. And even then, there are far more affordable options; it didn't cost me 100 large to get my degree.


The above opportunity cost figures include lost wages during enrollment. It actually doesn't cost six figures, but effectively it does. It's much worse going on with my condition and feeling miserable for life.


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## BosonMichael (Nov 1, 2011)

tripleCitizen said:


> Not for high GPA people from Tier 1 universities! Even in the economic slump of 2008-2009 the worst CS GPA's I know of (2.0-3.0) at my university *all* found jobs. My GPA was 4.0 and I fully expect to be able to maintain that anywhere there is fair competition & professors. I'm not especially intelligent, but I know how to study and I am diligent.


Good luck - it is clear you know more about the industry than I do.



tripleCitizen said:


> With your qualifications, perhaps  It's a lot harder to do as somebody who has not yet been able to prove himself. Especially marketing yourself is tough. It's doubly tough without any credentials.


My qualifications don't have anything to do with coding... they're all related to IT administration.  And my certifications don't mean squat without experience to back them up.


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