# Requesting advice on PC cases



## Charlie Justice (Feb 24, 2010)

Hello, after ten years I'm finally going for a new PC build. Mainly looking to do gaming and possibly dabble in music recording. I'm also trying to get a new desk, and looking at Uplift desks. The PC holder I want for their desk accommodates width 3.75" - 8.25" and height 12" - 20.5."

Is this enough space for a good PC case or should I just scrap the PC holder?

Would a full tower help for airflow/cooling for a gaming PC? Will it make a difference over a mid tower?

Would liquid cooling be worth the extra effort/money? I live in a fairly hot climate.

I'm also noticing there is no longer space for DVD drives in most cases. I find my DVD drive useful from time to time, anyone have any recommendations?

Total budget for just the PC is $2,000. I already have peripherals and will budget separately for monitor and desk.

Thanks to anyone who replies!


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## tristar (Aug 12, 2008)

Charlie Justice said:


> Hello, after ten years I'm finally going for a new PC build. Mainly looking to do gaming and possibly dabble in music recording. I'm also trying to get a new desk, and looking at Uplift desks. The PC holder I want for their desk accommodates width 3.75" - 8.25" and height 12" - 20.5."
> 
> Is this enough space for a good PC case or should I just scrap the PC holder?
> 
> ...


Personally the PC holder doesn't appeal to me, seems risky to keep the tower hanging in the Air 

Airflow/cooling is more dependent on the fans and the orientation of the Air flow, rather than the size of the case.

Yes, Liquid cooling is an absolute must to keep the CPU cool, unless you go for a low TDP CPU, in which case you don't need liquid cooling. For Gaming, it's an absolute must, invest in a good liquid cooler for both GPU and CPU for high performance gaming.

DVD Drive can be used, but personally, I have no use for them, I'd rather prefer an External HDD or SSD.. You can get a SATA (or IDE, depending on your DVD drive) Case and use the DVD drive externally whenever required.


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## Charlie Justice (Feb 24, 2010)

tristar said:


> Personally the PC holder doesn't appeal to me, seems risky to keep the tower hanging in the Air
> 
> Airflow/cooling is more dependent on the fans and the orientation of the Air flow, rather than the size of the case.
> 
> ...


So you dislike the PC holder for safety reasons rather than size limitations?

Can you link me any good threads, articles or info on liquid cooling so I can read up? 

I have an external hard drive, if that's what you're talking about? Do you mean an external DVD drive? It just seems like less and less PC cases have slots for DVD drives now.


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## Corday (Mar 3, 2010)

Decide on the case first. Mine doesn't quite clear the 8.25" max on what you're considering.

I've deleted your duplicate thread.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

The floor works great to hold cases - as long as it is a bare floor and not carpet. If carpet, a small board will allow for air flow underneath. For that price, that "CPU Holder" should make my morning coffee too! And for the record, its NOT a "CPU holder". The CPU is the processor, and it is held in place by the CPU socket mounted on the motherboard, mounted inside the case. So that is a computer or computer case holder. If they can't even get the terminology right, can you trust them to keep your computer safe and secure? 

You don't need a full tower unless you need support for more than 10 drives and a whole bunch of expansion cards. A quality mid tower case is just fine. I really like Fractal Design. Take a look at the Define R6. It is a great case, includes excellent and extremely quiet fans. That's important to me because I hate fan noise. Plus, the case itself has sound suppression materials lining the interior. Again, important if, like me, you don't like fan noise.

I have the older R4 and love it. And yes, the R6 also supports an external 5.25" drive to house your DVD/Blu-Ray. And I'm with you on that. Even though I don't use mine often, it is nice having one. 

I do not agree that water cooling is a must. With a quality case, you don't need alternative cooling unless you plan on doing extreme overclocking. Even today's OEM coolers do an decent job of keeping their CPUs adequately (and quietly - I hate fan noise) cooled - in a properly cooled case. And again, the R6 shines there. It comes with 3 quality and quiet 140mm fans (did I mention I hate fan noise?) and has space to add several more fans - though most likely more will not be needed. And if alternative cooling is needed, you can always add it later. The R6 is very flexible. But understand, radiator pumps can make as much if not more noise than fans do. 

IMO, most of the time all liquid cooling gives you is bragging rights. Keeping your CPU properly cooled is absolutely essential. No disputing that. But it is NOT necessary to keep it as cool as possible. A CPU running at 20°C will NOT be more stable, perform better, or have a longer life expectancy than a CPU running at 50°C. Also, one of the unwanted side-effects of water cooling is other heat-sensitive components are often neglected. For example, the VRMs and chipset ICs surrounding the CPU socket may miss the cooling air turbulence stirred up by the OEM coolers fan. So good case cooling for a good flow of cool air through the case is needed anyway. 

If your computer room is air conditioned, the fact you live in a hot climate is immaterial. However, if your CPU does not come with an included cooler, or you decide you want a better one, there are plenty to choose from. Remember, it is the case's responsibility to provide a sufficient supply of cool air flowing through the case. The CPU cooler need only toss the CPU's heat into that flow. 

Another bit of advice, do NOT try to trim the budget with a cheap PSU. Would you buy a brand new Porsche then fill it up at Bubba's Corner Tobacco and Bait Shop? A car engine can skip a beat and keep running. Not so with digital electronics. So get a quality supply - at least 80 PLUS Bronze certified though I recommend "Gold". I like EVGA and Seasonic. 

A common mistake is to buy way more PSU than needed. Bigger is not better. The right way to determine the proper size needed is to research all the components, determine their maximum power demand, add them all up, and that is the minimum supply you should get. But that takes a lot of time and work. So I recommend using a good PSU calculator and the best and only one I use or recommend is the eXtreme OuterVision PSU Calculator. This will calculate your minimum needs and recommend a suitable size for those needs. 

Plug in all your current components. Be sure to plan ahead and include all the hardware you think you might add in 2 or 3 years (extra drives, bigger or second video card, more RAM, etc.).

I recommend setting CPU utilization to 100% and Computer Utilization Time to 16 hours per day. These settings will help compensate for component aging, and add a little extra (but not too much extra) padding to the results. 

Having a little more power capacity than you need means the PSU will not be sitting near capacity most of the time. This keeps the PSU from getting hot allowing its fan to run at lower RPMs. And lower RPMs means the PSU's fan will run more quietly. And you know how I feel about fan noise.  

Most people are surprised at how little power today's electronics demand. So they often go out and get 850W or even 1000W PSUs when a decent 650W would be more than enough. 

Note that no calculator wants to recommend a PSU that is underpowered so they all pad the results, some more than others. The eXtreme OuterVision calculator does too but it has the most extensive database of options and is the most flexible. For those reasons, it is also the most conservative.


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## Charlie Justice (Feb 24, 2010)

Corday said:


> Decide on the case first. Mine doesn't quite clear the 8.25" max on what you're considering.
> 
> I've deleted your duplicate thread.


I apologize for creating a duplicate, I wasn't aware that was against the rules. I will avoid this in the future.


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## Charlie Justice (Feb 24, 2010)

Bill_Bright said:


> The floor works great to hold cases - as long as it is a bare floor and not carpet. If carpet, a small board will allow for air flow underneath. For that price, that "CPU Holder" should make my morning coffee too! And for the record, its NOT a "CPU holder". The CPU is the processor, and it is held in place by the CPU socket mounted on the motherboard, mounted inside the case. So that is a computer or computer case holder. If they can't even get the terminology right, can you trust them to keep your computer safe and secure?
> 
> You don't need a full tower unless you need support for more than 10 drives and a whole bunch of expansion cards. A quality mid tower case is just fine. I really like Fractal Design. Take a look at the Define R6. It is a great case, includes excellent and extremely quiet fans. That's important to me because I hate fan noise. Plus, the case itself has sound suppression materials lining the interior. Again, important if, like me, you don't like fan noise.
> 
> ...


Really appreciate this detailed, thoughtful reply. 

It looks like the Uplift PC holder isn't a great idea after all. I currently have a hardwood floor room for my PC, but can't guarantee I always will.

It looks like I do not need a full tower PC case, as I will not be adding 10+ drives or a whole bunch of expansion cards. It appears you're telling me case size will not much affect cooling.

My room is air conditioned, but I used to live in a cooler climate and it just seemed that the computer did not make as much noise or have fans blowing as much. I think it was just frequently like 65 degrees inside normally. My new air conditioned places are like 75 degrees at best. 

I'm not planning on overclocking, and was planning on buying an aftermarket CPU heatsink/fan anyways, so it looks like I don't need liquid cooling. 

I'm well aware of the pitfalls of cheapskating on PSU's, thanks to reading this forum over a decade ago now! That was my second build for myself. I'm excited to get a modular PSU for my new build, and really appreciate the detailed advice on choosing an exact PSU wattage, standard etc. I'll probably splurge on a gold standard, modular, brand name PSU with carefully calculated wattage. 

Do you have any thoughts on fully modular vs semi modular PSUs? Again, I'm working with the $2000 budget for the PC itself. I already have peripherals and will budget separately for a monitor.


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Charlie Justice said:


> It appears you're telling me case size will not much affect cooling.


No, I am not saying that. Micro and slim cases can very much affect cooling. But it is important to note the main difference between mid and full tower cases is height. Width and depth are essentially the same and both support standard ATX sizes. 

As far as your room (ambient) temp vs outside temp - that all depends on your thermostat setting. All I am saying, is I am assuming your AC can keep up with demand. Beyond that, if 80°F outside or 110°F outside, 75°F inside is 75°F inside as far as the computer is concerned. The tricks our mind play on us is a totally different story! 


Charlie Justice said:


> I'm not planning on overclocking, and was planning on buying an aftermarket CPU heatsink/fan anyways, so it looks like I don't need liquid cooling.


Well, to me, buying an aftermarket cooler or not depends on the CPU. Some come with an OEM cooler, some do not. If the one you select does, I say, try it first and see how it goes. You may not need an aftermarket cooler. Use a hardware monitor to see what your temps are in real time. I use and recommend Core Temp to monitor my CPU temps in real time. If yours sit and stays above 60°C for extended periods of time, then you probably need to look at more case fans and/or a better CPU cooler. If yours stays at a comfortable temp, buy your significant other something nice with the money you save. 


Charlie Justice said:


> Do you have any thoughts on fully modular vs semi modular PSUs? Again, I'm working with the $2000 budget for the PC itself.


Well that is a very generous budget. While I appreciate the appeal in terms of tidiness with a fully modular PSU, their benefits are exaggerated, IMO. A good case will support good cable management. So even a case with a wired PSU can look "tidy" and not worry about cables affecting air flow. And it is important to note modular cables do add extra connections (more potential points of failure and resistance) in the circuit. Plus, because there is no industry standard for modular cables on the PSU side of the cables, you MUST take care to carefully isolate and store any unused cables - forever and ever! Beyond that, semi-modular PSUs tend to have hardwired 24-pin cables. Those are required anyway so who cares if hardwired?


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## Charlie Justice (Feb 24, 2010)

Bill_Bright said:


> No, I am not saying that. Micro and slim cases can very much affect cooling. But it is important to note the main difference between mid and full tower cases is height. Width and depth are essentially the same and both support standard ATX sizes.
> 
> As far as your room (ambient) temp vs outside temp - that all depends on your thermostat setting. All I am saying, is I am assuming your AC can keep up with demand. Beyond that, if 80°F outside or 110°F outside, 75°F inside is 75°F inside as far as the computer is concerned. The tricks our mind play on us is a totally different story!
> Well, to me, buying an aftermarket cooler or not depends on the CPU. Some come with an OEM cooler, some do not. If the one you select does, I say, try it first and see how it goes. You may not need an aftermarket cooler. Use a hardware monitor to see what your temps are in real time. I use and recommend Core Temp to monitor my CPU temps in real time. If yours sit and stays above 60°C for extended periods of time, then you probably need to look at more case fans and/or a better CPU cooler. If yours stays at a comfortable temp, buy your significant other something nice with the money you save.
> ...


So micro and slim cases affect cooling, but mid size vs tower does not affect cooling? Is width the main cooling factor, while height doesn't matter? Or would a full tower have cooling advantages over a mid size case due to size?

Thanks for the advice regarding CPU fans and cooling. I used to use my motherboards cooling temp software but its incompatible with windows 10. 

I guess you're saying semi modular PSU is the way to go, then?


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

Charlie Justice said:


> So micro and slim cases affect cooling, but mid size vs tower does not affect cooling?


No. I didn't say that. Every case will "affect" cooling. But larger, in particular, wider and deeper cases (the good designs anyway) typically give you bigger and more fan options. They have more intake and exhaust vents where fans can be mounted. For example, most mid and full tower cases support multiple 140mm case fans - often two in front, one in back and some times one in the bottom and one or two on top. Some even support 200mm fans up top. Smaller cases won't support as many fans and perhaps only 120mm or even smaller fan. The larger the fan, the more air it can move while spinning at a lower RPM. And lower RPMs (with a quality fan) results in less fan noise - always a good thing in my book. 

Full tower cases don't normally support more fans so height is rarely a factor compared to a quality mid-tower. I have never seen a proper comparison in cooling between mid and full tower cases. I suspect because there are too many variables to be conclusive. That is, it is probably impossible to find a mid tower and full tower computer that are completely identical, except for height. Regardless, in my mind anyway, I can envision the speed of the flow in larger cases to be slower because of the volume of space that needs to be filled. And a slower flow "could" (I didn't say would) result in lower efficiency when it comes to removing the heat. My theorizing there may be wrong - all I can say is I have never had a problem setting up cooling in a mid tower that was resolved just by switching to a full tower. 

Another advantage to mid towers is weight. Even cases with excellent filters and proper fan configuration eventually fill up with heat-trapping dust. Lugging a mid-tower outside for blasting is a PITA. Lugging a bigger and heavier full tower case outside is a bigger PITA. 


Charlie Justice said:


> I guess you're saying semi modular PSU is the way to go, then?


You keep trying to read into my comments things I'm not saying. When it comes to cables, there is no right way to go - other than ensuring the PSU has all the cables necessary for your computer so you can avoid splitters and adapters. Beyond that, it doesn't matter to me. It is the electrical characteristics (tolerances, regulation, hold-up time, ripple suppression and efficiency) that matter most to me. Well, fan noise is in there too! 

Frankly, I am not a big fan of modular cables because there is no industry standard for them - at least not on the PSU end of the cables. So cables are not interchangeable between different PSUs - often even within the same brand!  This is not much of a problem if you only have one computer. But if you have many computers, what do you do with all the unused cables? You have to tag and bag and store each unused set individually - forever and ever! That can be a logistics nightmare. And what if you lose or break a cable 4 years from now? Will the PSU maker still carry replacements? 

The problem (if you can call it that) is modular PSUs have the distinct advantage of presenting a much tidier appearance inside the case as all the unused cables are stored outside the case, lost in a drawer or storage bin somewhere. Smaller rat's nests also attract less dust and are easier to clean. Plus fewer cables impact desired air flow through the case less. So modular PSUs have become much more popular. As such manufacturers tend to make all their higher quality PSUs modular. And as noted before, you don't buy a new Porsche and fill it up with questionable fuel at the corner Tobacco and Bait shop. 

Fortunately, a quality mid tower case, especially the wider ones, let you maintain a tidy appearance by supporting good cable management with lots of tie-down locations, pass-through grommets, and space behind the motherboard backplane to route cables and stuff unused cables.


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## Charlie Justice (Feb 24, 2010)

Bill_Bright said:


> No. I didn't say that. Every case will "affect" cooling. But larger, in particular, wider and deeper cases (the good designs anyway) typically give you bigger and more fan options. They have more intake and exhaust vents where fans can be mounted. For example, most mid and full tower cases support multiple 140mm case fans - often two in front, one in back and some times one in the bottom and one or two on top. Some even support 200mm fans up top. Smaller cases won't support as many fans and perhaps only 120mm or even smaller fan. The larger the fan, the more air it can move while spinning at a lower RPM. And lower RPMs (with a quality fan) results in less fan noise - always a good thing in my book.
> 
> Full tower cases don't normally support more fans so height is rarely a factor compared to a quality mid-tower. I have never seen a proper comparison in cooling between mid and full tower cases. I suspect because there are too many variables to be conclusive. That is, it is probably impossible to find a mid tower and full tower computer that are completely identical, except for height. Regardless, in my mind anyway, I can envision the speed of the flow in larger cases to be slower because of the volume of space that needs to be filled. And a slower flow "could" (I didn't say would) result in lower efficiency when it comes to removing the heat. My theorizing there may be wrong - all I can say is I have never had a problem setting up cooling in a mid tower that was resolved just by switching to a full tower.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the repeated misunderstandings. I really appreciate the depth of your replies, they're quite helpful!


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 17, 2004)

No problem. It is just in technical discussions, I try hard to be technically precise to avoid misunderstandings. So I would rather one ask for clarification if I fail at communicating what I meant to say.


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