# 1996 Buick Century 3.1litre motor overheating



## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

After engine is running a while it overheats, and the inside fan blows cold air. The temp guage goes to the red and then and then goes back down to normal range and fan blows out warm air. Had the water pump replaced a few months ago, had the thermostat replaced last week. Do I need to bleed the antifreeze system, and how?thanks. Any other suggestions?


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## manic (Aug 2, 2005)

You may have a air pocket in the cooling system. Only way is to take
radiator cap off fill with water or antifreeze. Start vehicle, let it warm up,
shut off, carefully take cap off and wait. Eventually the water level will
reduce, then add more, you may have to do this a few times, its slow but
it works. 
Make sure you got the right thermostat for the vehicle, and that you 
installed it correctly.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi diehard and welcome to TSF,

I'm in agreement with Maniac. Adding a little to that, the 3.4 liter engines of that year had a small channel that would allow water at the thermostat to circulate back to the pump. This brings hot water from the cylinder walls to the thermostat for opening and also allows circulation through the heater. If the water level is too low, the pump can't pick it up, however, when the water expands from heat the level will reach the pump and then start circulating. This could explain both your no heat in the heater and over temperature even with a new thermostat. 

A casual observer might think the radiator was full if there is water in the surge tank. Maniac has the right idea, open the radiator and nurse the water into the radiator through the engine running and cooling process. 

On older vehicles, the thermostat had a small hole in the thermostat plate to allow a small amount of water to flow past while it was closed. I'm giving the engine designers credit for making the pump return passage to provide heater core heat early after startup.....but I could be wrong:grin: 

Have a nice day,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks for the reply, but I discovered that the engine is losing quite a bit of antifreeze. Talked to a mechanic and he said that changing the thermostat wouldn't help. He said that the intake manifold gasket was leaking. The repair job would probably cost $700 to $900. That's too much for a car that is worth only about a grand anyway. I'm thinking about taking the motor down myself---anyone with experience on that---is it doable . Wondering if all the nuts and bolts would come off without heat etc. Any advice. Nothing ventured nothing gained the car is useless as it sits now. Thanks.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi diehard,

Leaking intake manifold is a common problem with those engines. I replaced the lower intake manifold gaskets on a 96 s10 blazer last week for the same problem. 

There were no bolts to be heated for removal. Most of the work was getting all the extra parts out of the way. The S10 has a 3.4 liter engine, so I'm not sure if anything I did would help in your effort. The S10 is rear wheel drive, so the engine is inline mounted. I'm not familiar with the Buick Century, but if it is inline mounted, the stuff I did might help. I took pictures that I can post here if you like. 

I replaced a head gasket on a 98 Malibu a few months ago with a sideways mounted 3.1 engine. If your engine is sideways, pictures I took them might help some. 

In both cases, lot of work, but doable.

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks, this engine is a sideways 3.1 litre , so it must be similar to the malibu, a few pictures of that job might help. I'm going to gather as much info as possible before I start.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi diehard,

Here is some shots I took. You should do the same if you have a digital camera. Before you start, it looks imposing, but after you remove the battery, filter box and large intake hose, it looks lots better. The pictures were for removing the head, so I don't have shots of the top of the lower intake manifold showing the mounting bolts. Notice that there are two bolts shown where the front valve cover is bolted to the lower intake manifold. There will be two on the other side of the engine, of course. Be sure to use a torque wrench when replacing the monifold. Be sure to torque in a three step manner starting with a low torque, them more, then the target torque. Also, follow the bolt torque sequence, rather like torquing a head where you use a pattern starting from the middle outward in both dirrections. 

If you have to move the Power Steering pump, you will have to use a socket through one of the three holes in the pulley to get to one or more of the mounting bolts. You can probably just leave the hydraulic hose attached and rotate the pump back out of the way.

On the other end of the engine, the Inlet Air control assembly is held down with two bolts and one underneath the air inlet hole. You can leave the feed cables attached and rotate it back out of the way. 

On cleaning the gasket surfaces, use a plastic or wooden scraper. Both the head and lower manifold are made of aluminum and will scar easily. Before starting the head cleaning, fill the cavity with news papers and paper towels to keep the debris out of the engine. 

I pointed out a bleed valve on one of the pics. It is used to bleed air out of the water system. Both Maniac and I both forgot to tell you about it earlier. I recall the book says turn the valve 1 and 3/4 turn while the engine is running to bleed the air. Tighten it back when through.

Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Mack1


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi diehard,

Here's two more. Couldn't put them on the other post. Exceeded the limits.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't know if I want to watch...... this is more like S&M if you ask me. When you move to the aft bank you are looking for a real beating!! I even hated changing plugs in my APV.... I bet the dealer even cheated when that was the task!!


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi SABL,

Don't think the back will be that bad. I think there is only two bolts that are back there that have to be removed and they are near the top of the engine and away from the firewall. The whole job should be a lot easier than replacing the head gasket. 

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks again mack1, I probably wont be starting this job until I get time in May, so if you have a bit more technical advice pass it on. I will be in touch again when I start as I am sure there will be hitches.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

> Hi, I have started to dissamble the top of the engine, quite a job. I appreciated the pictures you provided earlier. Was wondering if you had a picture or diagram with the names of the parts on them. Some of the reading says I need a special tool later in the job--is that right? I still don't have the fuel line disconnected so I guess there is still pressure---looks like that will be taken care of when I remove the 3100SFIV6 plate (Phlenum, I guess)-----any suggestions? Anyways, I got the throttle assembly out of the way and the alternator taken off and some wiring and connections. Would like to know if you have any advice.
> Thanks, Carl


Hi Carl,
I've pasted your e-mail here, hope you don't mind. This will bring your post to the top of the list and easy to find. (a bump)

The pictures I posted where from about a year ago, so my memory has faded somewhat. Last month I replaced the lower intake gasket on my 96 S10 Blazer, but it is not transverse mounted engine, so not much help for you. I did not have to use any special tools while replacing it. 

When removing the fuel lines, put some papper towels under the lines to catch the fuel. Be careful not to make any sparks until you can remove the towels. Keep a fire extingusher handy if you have one. Cover the ends of the pipes with plugs or at least duct tape to keep debris out. If there is any pressure in the lines, it will bleed off quickly and only a small amount of fuel should come out.

To copy the pictures posted earlier to your computer, expand each thumbnail. Right click on the expanded picture and pick "copy". Open up Microsoft Paint and paste it there. You can print them out from there. I feel that you already know that you can select text and copy then paste into a word or notepad. 

I don't have any diagrams that call out the parts. Be sure to take several pictures as you dissemble the engine. The electrical plugs normally only reach and fit its intended devices. I don't think you will have any trouble with that. 

The gasket set I used on my rescent manifold gasket replacement included all the gaskets need for the lower and upper manifolds. Other gaskets were included for the fuel lines. The lower intake manifold gaskets were two long gaskets for the intake holes. A tube of black silicone was included to use on the surface at each end of the engine between the two long gaskets. That finishes the seal between lower manifold and the engine. Again, be sure to torque the bolts as indicated in my last post. Get the torque values from your Haynes manual.

Hope this helps,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks mack1, As I said in e-mail, I have removed the phlenum and am down to the fuel rail showing, will disconnect the fuel lines from rail in the next couple of days when I get a few hours to work at it, then hopefully I will take off the two covers, the rocker arms and pushrods and the intake manifold. This is a loot of work for me but I'm taking my dead time to try and do it right---even then though I wonder if its worth it, lol. Anyway, thanks again, will keep you posted when I go at it again.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

I recall that there are only two bolts of the valve covers that go into the intake manifold.
You should be able to remove the upper and lower intake manifolds without removing the valve covers. Just remove the two top bolts in the valve covers that go into the maifold. Two bolts on each side of the engine should be all for the valve covers.

If you find that you have to remove the valve push rods, be VERY sure to put each one back into its own hole. That is important.

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Was at it for an hour again this morning, but not much progress, did remove the thermostat, but that's about all. I was expecting that when I took out the two bolts holding the fuel rail down that it would lift up a bit easy---but not the case, each side of the fuel rail seems to be on tight, guess the injectors have never been disturbed for 200,000 km and are stuck. Would they disconnect from the base or the bottom of the rail? How would you get the rail off? Also, the injectors are at angles, which seems to make it harder. I didn't want to use too much force and break something.
I am thinking that the fuel line still has pressure, will I disconnect the two lines, one on each side that go to the fuel rail?
Thanks again mack1 for the help.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

Does your Haynes manual not have good data on removing the fuel rail? My book starts at 97 and covers several GM vehicles (but not the Buick), however, I feel that they are all very similar. Point is that it has some good steps for removing both the upper and lower intake manifold assemblies. 

It shows that besides the two mounting bolts in the center of the manifold, there are two on each side of the rail assembly. That would explain why the rail don't prize up very easily. Book says too gently rock the rails and prize upward. Each injector has an oring that has to slide up and out of the manifold. Be sure to mark the injector electrical connections before you unplug them. 

The pressure valve is mounted on the fuel rail. If you have a pressure guage, screw it on this valve. Pressure gauges are equipped with a drain tube that can be used to dump the fuel into a container. If you don't have a guage, put shop towels or paper towels around and under the fitting at the inlet pipe to the rail. Loosen the pipe fitting and catch the fuel into the towels. Again, be careful with the fuel and get it out of the way asap. I'm assuming that the battery has already been removed. 

If your book don't have the data you need, I can try to copy some of mine and post it. Again, not your vehicle exactly, but might help.

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi mack1,
I don't have a book, have been using the library on-line to refer to the Chilton manual for my car. Each DIY job is given a set of instructions on what to do. So I am going at this a bit blind, you might say.
Had another go at the fuel rail, I didn't notice that each injector had a metal clip that attached to each side of the rail. I plied these back, took off the connectors for the fuel injectors, and pried the two sides of the rail back and forth until it disconnected from the injectors---some 0-rings were left on the injectors, some were up in the fuel rail, I put all of them on the injectors. The pressure was released when I took off the rail because the fuel lines were still connected---I couldn't get them off. I have the rail which is connected to the fuel line tied back out of the way.
The on-line manuals say to take off both rocker covers, and remove the push-rods, then remove the bolts on the intake manifold to remove it. It also says to tilt the engine forward. Thats the instructions for a type M engine which this is.
I was wondering that when I take off the rocker covers, how would I know what pushrods go through the intake manifold. When the bolts for the intake manifold are removed, how do you go about lifting it out. Did you have to remove any bolts for your 3.1 engine---it seemed like a bit easier to work on.
Thanks again


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Its interesting mack1 that I was reading the online manual for the 1998 malibu 3.1 and the instructions said to remove the rocker arm covers and pushrods and tilt the engine too, it doesn't seem that you had to do any of this according to what you have been writing. Please update me.
Thanks again.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

Actually, the job on the Malibu was a head removal and the valves had to be removed anyway. I hadn't noticed that the push rods went through holes in the lower intake manifold. Compounding that train of thought, I recently changed the lower gaskets on a 3.4 engine where the pushrods don't go through the manifold. I went back to the book and Yes, the pushrods must be removed. 

Loosen the rocker arms until you can turn them sideways. That will let the pushrods come up past them. AGAIN, make sure you keep track of which hole each pushrod goes into. On the Malibu, I used a pastboard box and punched holes into it. Marked each hole according to the engine location and put each pushrod into its respective hole in the box. FYI, earlier engines had adjustable valve clearance and procedures for setting them such that the hydraulic lifters were at near the mid point of their expansion with the engine running. This caused the valves to stay in constant contact with the camshaft, lifter rods, and valves. No valve clatter and wear was accomodated by the expansion zone in the lifters. Not so on new engines. The spacing is maintained by the blocks on the rocker assembly and each one might be different to the next one, so put them back where they came off. 

The Haynes book makes no mention of tilting the engine on the Malibu. No tilting was required to remove the head on the 98 Malibu. You might find that the back valve cover won't come off without a tilt..... 

The lower manifold will be stuck to the heads and block. Be careful prizing it loose. The head and lower manifold are aluminum and scratch/scar easily. Prize against the side of the manifold where possible to break it loose. Tapping it with a rubber hammer as you prize might help. Once loose, it should come right out. Don't be tempted to drive a putty knife between the surfaces (which was the norm on all-steel engines). Follow the instructions in the Chilton book on cleaning the surfaces and keeping debris out. Changing the oil after the work is complete is suggested by the Haynes book. 

Good luck,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi mack1,
Well, I finally got the intake manifold out. I had a hard time getting the inside cover off(one of the bolts was right in line with a bolt coming up which holds the ignition assembly in place and it would not budge----that bolt will be a bugger to get back in) but it did come off without tilting the engine. I was going to remove the pushrods before taking out the manifold but I got one out but the second would not come out so I had to lift the manifold slightly---the manifold seemed loose so I lifted the whole thing out. I could see then that half the pushrods need to be removed for the new gasket to be put in place. 
Can you comment on this---the procedure I will follow is clean all the surfaces, put the gasket in place on the engine, then install the pushrods, and torque the bolts down to the specification. This gasket seems flat for the bottom of the engine so I am wondering about sealant. Will I put sealant at the top corners of the gasket. So all pushrods and gasket will be in place when I install the intake manifold---is this what you did?
Anyway, I'm off to buy a new gasket. I've got to get a new nut for the first pushrod I removed because as I had the pushrod in my hand and the wrench with the nut turned sideways and the nut fell out---dont know where it went, bad luck, but it didnt go in the engine.
Thanks again,


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

You are making great progress. Hope you bought the gasket set that includes both the upper and lower manifold gaskets. The one I bought had orings and other parts needed, including a tube of black rtv. If you have to buy rtv separately, get high temperature rated, usually it is red. Take your time cleaning the old gasket and residue off. You don't want to have to redo the job because of leaks. 

The gaskets on the 96 blazer stayed in place on the engine by a dowel pins, so I didn't have to worry too much about the gasket moving while putting the manifold on. It's ok to extend the rtv up onto the gaskets a little. The Haynes book says smear a little around the water ports on the gasket to make help prevent leaks. Be ready to put the manifold on when you put down the bead of rtv on the block ends. It should squash nicely and form a good seal in a couple of hours. 

I bought a couple magnets with extendable handles at the auto store. Inexpensive, but very handy around a car. I also have a small mirror with a swivel head and extendable handle. Nice to find lost parts like the nut you dropped. I hate to go all the way to a wrecking yard to get a nut or bolt that you can't seem to find anywhere else. 

Your sequence on re-installing sounds good to me. Be sure to follow the sequence when torquing the bolts. If you need the sequence, I can post it. My book lists the lower manifold to be 62, then 115 inch lbs in a two step proceedure. I usually retest the last one to make sure. (don't over torque) The upper manifold lists 18 inch lbs. and it also has a tightening sequence.

Good luck and have a nice day.
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi mack1,
I have uploaded here a couple of pictures of the manifold gasket area. The right hand side of the gasket shows the mashed up area. I am pretty confident I can reassemble everything to this point.

However, when I was at the automotive store I was talking to a mechanic who said that maybe the problem is a cracked cylinder head or leaky cylinder head gasket. Wondering what you thought. And I was wondering what job you did on your malibu, and what kind of problems you were having.

I'll run through the problems I had again----hadn't checked the antifreeze for a few weeks and this day while driving through town(about 50km/hr)the fan started to blow cold air, then the temp hand shot right up. I opened the hood and the overflow was really high on coolant. After driving a bit more the temp hand went down and I got home. I refilled the coolant. The next few days I would test drive the car and the same thing would happen. I thought I had a sticking thermostat. I had it replaced, but the same thing would happen. The mechanic who did the thermostat said the problem was the intake manifold gasket. It seemed like the antifreeze in the reservoir was boiling or bubbling when I would lift the bonnet.

So I was wondering if you thought these were the symptoms of a faulty intake manifold gasket? My mechanic said that antifreeze is blown out thought the exhaust when the intake manifold is leaking that bad.
Does air get sucked into the system then to make the remaining antifreeze boil or is it because the engine is overheating? I dont quite understand the physics behind this.

I think that removing the cylinder head might be too big a job, but I wouldnt want to put everything back and have the same problem. What are the symtoms of a cylinder head gasket failure or a cracked or warped cylinder head, I wonder.

Anyway, I will have to ponder this for a little while. I am not stuck for a ride though---I bought a 2001 Cavalier for a couple thou when this started to happen and my old 89 Chev pickup is still running, lol.

Hope to hear your response soon.
Im goin away for the weekend so I will touch base next week.
Thanks, Carl 

I


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

Here's how the normal cooling system works. In normal operation, coolant is pumped through the radiator and back through the engine. A small hose takes water at the engine outlet through the heater core and back to the engine inlet from the radiator. Early thermostats has a small bypass hole so that heated coolent could get to it for opening the plunger allowing full flow through the radiator. Newer models (like yours) take the return through the heater there at the thermostat so the thermostat no longer needs the bypass hole. The thermostat will open when its rated temperature is reached allowing full flow through the radiator for cooling. As the coolant heats, it expands causing pressure in the system. Water boils at about 212 degrees F depending on the pressure (14.7 psi at sea level). At higher pressures, the boiling point goes up. Your radiator cap has a spring seal that allows pressure to go above ambient pressure, thus the boiling point could be as high as 250 degrees F. Mechanical engineers use a steam table to know exactly what the boiling point is at the different pressures. Most radiator caps allow about 14 psi increase above ambient. You should normally have no boiling inside the coolant system. 

If the radiator full, like it should be, the excess is pushed past the radiator cap and into the reservior as the fluid expands through heating. Notice that there is a hot and cold level mark on your reservior. The radiator cap has a small check valve that lets the fluid easily return back into the radiator as it cools off and shinks. Under normal conditions, the radiator will keep itself full. Also, there should be enough fluid in the reservoir to cool off any hot fluid forced into it past the radiator cap. There should be no boiling in the reservior. Any air in the system would at some time be forced into the reservior and might look like boiling when it showed up there. 

If the heater all at once gets cold, it is an indication that the water level is so low that the pump can't pick it up. Overheating will ensue almost immediately sometimes causing the water to expand enough for the pump to pick it up. The heater would then start putting out heat and the engine would cool back with the flow. A stuck thermostat will cause overheating, but the heater will keep working. 

The 96 S10 blazer is my vehicle. The leak on it was on top of the engine at both sides of the manifold and ran off the front and rear of the engine. The engine overheated only once and the lower manifold gasket replacement fixed the problem.

The Malibu was my grandson's vehicle. Water could be seen at the area where the head was bolted onto the block. That effort was not totally successful. He later overheated the engine to the extent that it had to be replaced. 

I think it is unlikely that you had water from the lower intake manifold getting into the engine intake, thus putting the water through the exhaust. Notice that the water ports are on the ends of the manifold, some distance from the intake ports of the engine. Water from that manifold would more likely showup outside the engine, or in the oil pan. 

I think you should finish the manifold gasket job and then see what you have. 

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi mack1,
Thanks for the quick reply. Im heading out early Saturday morning, so I was glad to see this post, will check back later today too.

Anyway, your last information was very interesting, I certainly understand now why the heater would stop putting out heat, then the quick rise on the temp hand , and then back to normal---I certainly would not have replaced the thermostat had I known that---and you never know when that knowledge will come in handy again. 

I was losing antifreeze for quite a while because in winter I could see some on the snow and when the car was sitting for a while in the garage there would be a few drops on the garage floor. I had used bars leaks a couple years ago and things seemed fine, I had the water pump replaced about 3 months ago so perhaps the bars leaks chemicals was getting diluted. Perhaps that further deteriorated the gaskets. So I overheated the engine a few times, 7 or 8, but never up into the red and no warning lights came on so Im hoping the was no damage to the cylinder head or cylinder head gaskets ------do you think that is a possibility?

But where is the antifreeze going? I am thinking as the engine was running it leaking out through that gasket, if I used the engine harder then it would overheat faster I suppose because of the pressure buildup on the liquid and when you are driving you wouldn't know if it was leaking to the outside of the engine or back through the exhaust. I'm concluding it is being forced out of the engine. 

And where is the air coming from that replaces that water that is forced out , is it being drawn in from the same leak in that gasket or back through the overflow resevoir for the radiator or from some other area of the engine----that is a bit of a mystery to me. I cant get my head around it that the radiator is partly empty and the resevoir is full when the engine overheats.

Anyway, I will probably start putting it back together next week sometime.

I appreciate your insight and help.
Thanks again mack1,
Carl


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Don't forget about the bleeder valve when you start putting the coolant back in. I've have to read up on it to tell you exactly how to do it. They are new and seem to be on the small v6 engines. I've had almost no chance to use it to get rid of air in some of the engine's internal areas. You might find some coverage on it in the Chilton manual.

Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi mack1,
Just picked up the intake manifold gasket kit today--at NAPA for just 35 bucks. The kit I had didnt include the end rail seals. It did have a 14 ml envelope of silicone sealant. Guy at counter suggested I buy a tube with 80 ml and run two beads on each end rail to be sure to make a good seal. What do you think?
If the Haynes manual says to smear some around the water ports to prevent leakage, then do you smear some on before you put the gaskets in place and then on the other side after, so you get both sides?
Thanks


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

I paid about $35 for the set I bought. I don't remember the ml volume of the included silicone sealant, but I had some left over. The end rails are not nearly as important as the intake ports and the water jacket ports and no pressure in that chamber. It is an area where any excess oil from the valves will drain back into the crankcase. The PCV valve keep all smoke and vapors from there and the oil pan feed back into the intake for burning. 

I didn't smear any around my water ports, didn't think about it at the time and only ran across that suggestion in the book for your engine. If I were doing it, after a very good cleaning of the gasket surfaces I would use my finger to smear a very thin coat around the engine water ports before the gasket and a very thin coat on the maniford water ports. One good bead across the end caps and put the manifold on immediately. 

The torquing sequence is important for the manifold bolts. I like to use a three step proceedure where you torque down a small amount first. Then (again following the bolt sequence) tighten them down to a next tightness. The third time around, torque it to the desired torque. After that, go around again and make sure the torque is still there on each bolt, without adding anymore torque. Sometimes when you torque one bolt, it releaves some of the pressure on an adjacent bolt. 

Good luck,
Mack1


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Isn't that one of the engines GM was using and recommending using a cooling system sealer in?


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

> Isn't that one of the engines GM was using and recommending using a cooling system sealer in?


That wouldn't surprise me. They have a lot of trouble with the aluminum manifolds mounted on steel engine blocks. I think they ported water through it because of that expansion difference problem. You get stresses with each heat/cool cycle and a lot of stress if water fails to flow through the manifold during an overheat situation. 

They never had to use water cooling in the old steel on steel manifold to block engines.


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks for reply, I don't have the bolt tightening sequence, there are four on the top and two one each end---if it would not be too much to as to post the tightening sequence. Thanks.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

Attached is both the upper and lower sequences. Again, this is for the Malibu, so use the torques that Chilton lists for your engine.

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi mack1,
Been a bit busy but I am in the process of putting the engine back together. Got the intake manifold gasket installed and torqued down, left it for an hour and wasn't sure if I had it to 23 foot poujnds and it seemed to tighten down more, perhaps its overtorqued but it s on solid and if it is overtorqued I suppose the gasket should be good for a while. (200,000 km on the engine anyway) There were two bolts that I had to just tighten as good as I could with an ordinary wrench. Got the map sensor, egr valve, and a few other things back in place. The alternator and plug wires are still left and a few hoses and connections. Will keep you posted. You were going to check something about bleeding the system---I thought I just add antifreeze til full and check again after the engine was running a while, that is, if it runs again.
Anyway, thanks again for your help.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

The book said to put a 4 foot 1/4 inch clear plastic hose on the bleeder screw. The other end into a container. It says to open the screw two or three turns and watch the water in the hose for bubbles with the engine running. When the bubbles stop, close it.

Your idea should work. Keep adding fluid as needed until it works out the air over a few runs of the engine. 

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Well mack1, i got some good news and some bad news to report, I finished putting everything back together and the engine started fine and worked fine, now the bad news, the same problem. I looked under the hood and I can see a jet of antifreeze coming from the pipe that connects to the phlenum---I must have bent it or somehow caused the leak when I hooked up the phlenum to it---I know I had to sort of force it to get all the hoses to hook up.It's a funny piece of pipe, it has the two small pieces hooking to the phlenum and then the other two big openings at either end hooked up. I hope I can get to it without having to take the phlenum off again. I guess you know the piece of piping I am talking about. Where it's old and then forcing on it I must have cracked it. I hope its repairable. Until I try fixing that, I won't be satisfied.
Any ideas appreciated.
Thanks


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

> I guess you know the piece of piping I am talking about.


Hi Carl,

Actually, I don't. Can you take a snapshot and post it. I'll be looking and see what I can find.

Glad I started OK.

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi mack1,
Here are a couple pictures, the attachment to be removed is to the right of the thermostat housing and connects to the piping to the right, I have cut away one piece of the high pressure hose which connects the two ends of the pipes---the hose connecting the phlenum to the next pipe.

My brother has a plumbers wrench which I might be able to use but if I cant get that attachment out the whole top phlenum, spark plug assembly, alternator brackets etc. will have to come off again.

As you can see it is a very difficult area to work in.
Any ideas?
Thanks.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

If this is the Elbow pipe that's leaking I'm not sure it screws in it may be a press fit.
Are you sure that is where the leak is and it is not running down from the hose?


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi wrench,
The leak is actually in that metal pipe to the right and when the engine warms up you can see a jet of spray coming out of the pipe. My problem right now is how to loosen that silverish color coupling just to the right of the thermostat housing.
Any ideas?
Thanks.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

The Heater hose "Quick Connect" is threaded in and will unscrew usually with a deep socket or a crowsfoot socket doesn't appear you have room for a box wrench in there.


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

No way to get a socket on there, tried my brother's basin wrench but couldn't get enough leverage on, looks like the phlenum will have to come off which means disconnecting the wiring, taking off spark plug wires and ignition assembly, taking off the alternator brackets etc. oh my


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

One of these if you can find a reasonably priced one in the correct size>


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

Sorry for the late response, but I've been tied up all day with company. I've noticed that Wrench has introduced you to crowfoot sockets. Good idea and I am a fan of those sockets as well as the Proto brand. If you run into old tools with the Plumb name on them, they are the same. I have a set I bought at Auto Zone that wasn't very expensive. Not the Proto brand, but sturdy and usable. I consider it money well spent.

Seems like you have isolated the leak to a hole in the pipe. That said, the only option is to replace the pipe. The pipe is obviously rusted out from the inside, so welding up the hole is not a good plan. A trip to the salvage yard is in order. 

On removing the pipe, if the special tools like the crowfoot won't work, then you will have to remove parts until you can get to it. We've all been there. On the bright side, you will notice that the parts come off easier the second time. Your experience will start to show. And by the way, congratulations on the work you have done so far. Replacing the gaskets on the lower intake manifold is a daunting task for anyone. 

Very best regards,
Mack1


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## stoney11771 (May 28, 2009)

Hi,

I have a related question. I have a 1996 Buick Regal Custom 3.1 L .
We had a problem with the intake manifold gasket and had it replaced. Now it still seems to heat up. I didn't let it get to half just in case.
When the A/C is on it stays at the 1/4 mark but sitting it goes up. 
Do you think it might be a problem with the fans? It has dual electric fans.
One runs ok and the other runs then shuts off then runs again while idling. Is that normal?
Since I only have one fan on my other cars I am unsure as to how the extra fan works. I always thought they ran simultaniously.
Any information would be helpful.
Thanks


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks wrench and mack,
I will have to look for a crowfoot wrench before I take the top phlenum off again---wondering if the upper gasket is spoiled after so little use? Will size that up to see if it will fit in to take off the coupling.
I've been busy painting this week, a lot of fine weather, might be another week or two before I get back at the car again. I will keep you posted when I do.
Sorry I cant help you stoney---my opinion would be a guess, my guess on my problem was the thermostat and it was wrong.
And thanks for the vote of confidence mack1, I was pleased that the car ran so well after I put it back together.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

I'm thinking that you can reuse the upper manifold gasket without problem. In any event, it isn't anything like removing the lower manifod if you had to replace it later.
I remember it as a gasket that fits into a slot and compresses as you tighten the mounting bolts. It should be reusable.

I can't help stony either. I really don't know the fan control sequence on those vehicles.
My fans have always worked off the fanbelt, so I have no basis for giving advice there.

Good luck with the pipe changeout. Take a look at and decide for yourself it is weldable. That would be the quickest fix if it is.

Very best regards,
Mack1


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

On Stony's the fans sound like they are working properly the 1 fan is hooked to the A/C when the high side goes above 225PSI it comes on and goes off at around 150PSI that's normal, I would look either for air in the system or a bad thermostat. Outside chance of a bad water pump or the fan belt on wrong turning the pump the wrong way.


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## stoney11771 (May 28, 2009)

Well it is just getting frustrating. We have had the guy who replaced the intake manifold gasket take it back two times because it was still leaking. I replaced the heater hoses and thought it wasn't leaking any more. But evidently it is still using coolant and heating up. Gee I would hope the guy didn't put the belts on wrong. He's supposed to know what he was doing. Maybe it DOES have air in the system. Thinking about taking it to the dealer but ouch that hurts! LOL


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi all,
well, mack1, I haven't given up on this project---just trying to figure out what to do, I took off the egr valve so I can get at that coolant pipe, my plan is to cut the pipe and get a longer piece of hose and clamp it good to see what happens, the trick is to get something in there small so I can cut the pipe, will let you know how it goes.


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Got the coolant pipe out, went to dealer to see how the quick connect coupling worked, would have saved me a lot of work if I had to do that earlier, the pipe had a small hole corroded in it, brought it to a welder to get patched up, another 15 bucks, but I figure its worth the try since I've gone this far. Didn't need the crowfoot socket after all.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

Thanks for keeping us posted. You should have that car up and running in no time.

Very best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi mack1,
I got the pipe fixed, hooked it up as it was a quick-connect fitting, and tried the car. The motor warmed up, I gave it a shot of gas, and same thing, the temp hand shot up, so it was up and down, same as before. I'm certain the cylinder head gasket is shot or the cylinder head is warped or cracked, or both---blown head gasket I conclude. All I got from all that work was more knowledge, lol. Well, it'll sit for a while before I go at it again, if ever. I'm thinking disconnecting the exhaust, oxygen sensor, and all those bolts would be too difficult, plus the fact that you probably would need a torch to heat them up. Then, also, there is the technical side of things---how much degree of difficulty is there to that work?
Anyway, thanks for the help---I was pleased to be able to do the work I set out to do.
Any more ideas greatly appreciated, thanks.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

> The motor warmed up, I gave it a shot of gas, and same thing, the temp hand shot up, so it was up and down, same as before.


Did you remember to use the bleed valve to get the extra air out of the engine? If the "up and down" temperature was happening while it was running, it sounds like low fluid level or air in the system. 

If the head gasket leaks to the water jacket, there will be air bubbles in the water system. Open the radiator cap and start the car. Watch for air bubbles in the radiator. 

If the head gasket leaks to the outside, there should be moisture where the head and block meat. If it leaks bad enough, there should be some dripping under the car. 

Hope it's just low water level or air.

Best regards,
Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

Pretty certain it is the cylinder head, when the car starts it idles fine and as it warms up there is the odd bubble coming up in the coolant overflow tank. It takes a while to come up to normal operating temperature and it seems it could sit a long time with engine running at idle at that temperature. However, if you gun it a few times so pressure builds up in the system, then the problem starts. Must be shooting coolant out the exhaust so none is going to heater core for a while so it blows cold air out the heater vent, let the engine settle down and the heat returns with heater fan on and the temperature guage goes back to normal. When the radiator is checked after the engine cools, the antifreeze is down. The coolant that was in the coolant reservoir that was pushed out there by expansion will not be drawn back into the radiator which also indicates it is not a closed system.
I am considering trying a container of block weld or some product like it, but I am not sure of its reliability, perhaps it is a small leak or crack. I am not fussy on using this stuff though because I think it is just a temporary fix.
I could easily take the engine down as far as the intake manifold gasket again, but going past that would be difficult because I am sure that most of the bolts would be seized.
how did you deal with seized bolts on the malibu, mack1? Did you have much trouble with the heat shield, the exhaust manifolds, disconnecting the exhaust, the oxygen sensor, or even the cylinder head bolts for that matter?
Just contemplating my next move.
Thanks.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Once you pass the intake manifold the big hurdle is the exhaust, judging from the rust on the pipes I imagine the exhaust studs won't be easy you could try them first the newer cars seem to be easier then the older ones sometimes, I think if you did the intake the head gaskets should not be a problem for you.
Maybe Mack can tell us if you need to remove the manifolds from the heads some motors you do for access to the head bolts others you can just remove the exhaust pipe from the manifold and take the manifild and head off together as one piece.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

> how did you deal with seized bolts on the malibu, mack1? Did you have much trouble with the heat shield, the exhaust manifolds, disconnecting the exhaust, the oxygen sensor, or even the cylinder head bolts for that matter?




Hi Carl,

Actually, seized bolts were not as big of a problem as I would have thought. The vehicle had never been on salted roads, so just normal rust. Soak them with penetrating oil for a day or so before you begin. Use 6 point sockets if you have them and if the nuts are coming off hard, run them back and forth as you remove them. Adding some fresh oil during the process helps. I have an acetylene torch, but didn't need to use it. It's a lot easier to take time to heat a really bad one than to deal with a twisted off stud. 

The head bolts were no problem at all. Once loosened, they came right out. Disconnecting the heat shield on the back was close. We managed to spring it enough to remove bolts and parts. I don't remember having to remove an oxygen sensor. They are usually on the exhaust pipe down from the engine. We didn't remove the back head, so I have no insite on that. Looked like it might be a little hard to get off. 

If you plan to use some block seal, someone talked about liquid glass in an earlier post. It sounded like the best of the group of sealants. It was susposed to melt at about the temperature of the head, so it wouldn't stick to the walls of the rest of the coolant system. Maybe someone with more data will jump in and give you some more info on it.

Hope this helps,
Best regards,
Mack1


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

> Maybe Mack can tell us if you need to remove the manifolds from the heads some motors you do for access to the head bolts others you can just remove the exhaust pipe from the manifold and take the manifild and head off together as one piece.


Taking the head off with the manifold attached sounds like a very good idea for the back head. You'll need to remove the manifold on the front head because the dip stick tube is between the manifold and head. You might be able to slide it over, but taking it off shouldn't be that hard (wasn't on the Malibu). 

Remember the idea from the library about tilting the motor forward. You might need that to get the exhaust pipe loose on the backside. I didn't take a picture while the valve cover was off, but I am almost sure that half the head bolts are there. The other half are just above the manifold and can be removed with the manifold in place. 8 bolts total.

Best regards,
Mack1


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

Check your lower hose from the radiator to the block. There is a spring inside it that keeps it from collapsing when the pump draws water into the block. Just squeeze the hose along its length to feel if the spring is in tact.

That could expain why the heater is getting cold while the engine is hot and also explain why the engine returns to normal when you get off the gas.
That don't explain the air bubbles going back into the surge tank though.

Too simple of a test not to try. 

Best regards,
Mack1


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Easy enough to test test for that, but I believe the heater core in that model is higher then the engine so the air all ends up in the core until you let it idle and the pressure drops
we see that in trucks all the time usually a good indicator of a head gasket in a car.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Head gaskets are a very big job. I think everything should be tired before replacing them. I'd hate myself if that turned out to be the problem and I had forgotten to tell Carl about it in advance.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

I agree you mack1, it's just a familiar description about the heater, but not the gauge.


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

I haven't looked at the car the last few weeks. Got in it , turned the key and it started fine and ran good. Still wondering about the cylinder head gaskets. Put it up on blocks just to see where the exhaust connect to the manifold, what a brute, two nuts up through a very small opening, put the socket up through there with two extensions on it and twisted with all my might but nothing budged. How will I loosen those bolts? And how would I be able to get enough pressure to twist them off. I took off a few of the heat shield bolts, the small ones, only twisted off one. Have a chance to buy a 95 century for 100 bucks with 3100 engine ---the chassis was rusted out, but I don't know if I want it by the door. Lots of parts on it. If I could get those darn bolts loose it might be worthwhile.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Try heating the bolts with a propane torch _carefully_ it's not in an easy spot.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,

Did you remember to soak them with penetrating oil for a day for so? Those back studs and nuts will be difficult to get oil on. You may have to soak a rag on a stick and get it on them from the bottom. Makes a big difference ... really. 

You will probably need a half inch drive to get the torque that you want. A breakover with a cheater bar might be needed. 

If the oil don't work, you will probably have to twist them off on the back. Can't get a torch up there. The torch is a good idea on the front stuff that you can reach. When using a torch, try to focus the heat on the nut, not the stud. Heating will cause the nut to expand thereby making it easier to remove. 

Good luck.

Mack1


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

I haven't really given it an honest effort yet--been too busy. However, I was thinking about another approach. After taking out the intake manifold again, I think I should be able to get the heat shield off and after that comes the manifolds. I should be able to heat the top of the manifold bolts to get the front manifold disconnected from the head and the back manifold---then I would heat the bolts on the head and remove them to get the front head off---looks like the front engine mount is going to have to come off or apart to get at some bolts. For the back manifold, I was thinking I could heat the heads of the manifold bolts and take them out thereby disconnecting it from the head, while at the same time leaving the manifold attached to the exhaust system. What do you think? Then heat the head bolts and remove them.
The manual says to disconnect the exhaust system but I'm wondering if this is absolutely necessary.
your right, I don't think it would be safe to try getting a small propane torch up there.
Thanks


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

You don't need to heat the head bolts unless your talking the manifold to head bolts.


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## mack1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Carl,
Wrench is right, don't heat the head bolts. They should come out ok without heating. 
If you can remove the back manifold bolts and leave the exhaust connected, that would be good. If I recall, the manifold is held on by bolts, not studs and nuts. Nuts on a rusty stud is where you need the oil or heat.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

The manifold is held on by bolts but I think they're even harder to get to then the exhaust pipe studs, been a number of years since I was into one but I'm almost sure I left the manifolds on the heads.


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## diehard3333 (Mar 26, 2009)

You are right, the exhaust is bolted onto the manifold. The manifold is bolted onto the head, but I assume I would have to heat the bolts on the manifold to remove the manifold from the head. And the head bolts I don't have to heat, and they dont need loosening oil---but they will require a lot of pressure to get off---hope they don't break.
Thanks.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Never heat the bolts, heat would expand the bolt making harder to get out, you heat the nut for example to expand it and make it easier to remove or in other words you heat what the bolt is threaded into to expand it and make the bolt easier to remove.


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