# Leaking Washroom Faucet



## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

This faucet has been leaking for quite some time now, as you can see from the stains in the sink.










I don't know much about plumbing so I asked my friend to come have a look with father who has some experience with plumbing. We had a plumber look at the faucet a while back and concluded that it would be best to change it. Not only is it dripping hot water which is expensive when you add it up, but it also leaks all over the counter when in use (the water comes out where the crane label is and goes all over the vanity).

Since the plumber told me that it would be best to replace the fauce, I bought one. But I was told that it would be a very good idea to add a shut off valve to the faucet and change the supply lines from the old stiff copper-like material that is using now to a new pliable line. 

So my friend told me to get a couple of things at the hardware store for when he and his father will come tomorrow but I'm not sure which exactly they are:


"Quarter-turn ball bearing shutoff valves"
"Stainless steel speedways (bendable)"

Is that what I will be needing, from your experience? does it take two shut-off valves or do you only need one for both the hot and cold lines? Can you try to find them on this page since this is the store near my home: Shut Off & Ball Valves | Canadian Tire

Here are pictures of my faucet currently:


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

The reason I ask this:



> does it take two shut-off valves or do you only need one for both the hot and cold lines?


is because this article says



> consider putting a valve on every *hot- and cold*-water supply tube


.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Install these under the sink, one for cold water and one for hot water:

How To Install a Compression Valve - YouTube


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Looks like you have old galvanized steel pipes, that going into the wall. They do make shut off valves to fit these, they are threaded. Older building did not use cooper when they were built. Remember every thing you do in an older place is hard.

Going to need 2 pipe wrenchs, basin wrench, along with the 2 valves, new supply lines, thread sealant/pipe joint compound.

Important - when removing the supply line at the bottom (with the pipe wrenches) don't let the galvanized pipe move. It can loosen up inside the wall or break off.

If I were to do one. I turn off the water, both hot and cold, cut the old supply line, disconnect the drain and pull the sink from the counter. It is easier than fighting getting the old faucet fitting loose. 

Have fun

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Yes but I wanted to know if you can tell (from the photos) which shutoff valve I need to buy because I read the there a smooth pipes and thread pipes from this article: Replace those compression valves with 1/4 turn angle valves!



> I agree with Ed that it can be very easy to screw up attaching a shutoff valve to smooth copper tubing via a 1/2 inch NOM Comp inlet on the valve.


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

You tell us, we are not there.

If pipe is sort of sliver/gray it is threaded.
If it brown/cooper color is is a cooper pipe.

If a magnet sticks to it, it is a steel pipe.

You can't use a compression fittings on steel pipes.

BG


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Just cut the smaller-diameter copper tubing about 3 inches from the join to the larger pipe coming out of the wall and install compression fitting-type valves like I showed in the video, it's the easiest way. Measure the copper tubing first though to make sure it's of a standard size and so you can get the proper fittings.

Plumbing older houses is a pain. I did building maintenance and construction for thirty years to make ends meet while going to college and working as an adjunct (read, part-time) professor. I still do maintenance, albeit now on family-owned properties. I've seen just about everything mess up that possibly can. 

If you start messing with old, painted-up, galvanized pipe coming from the wall you may find that it's stuck tight, which will require a torch to loosen. Or, the pipe may unscrew it at the T- or L- fitting back in the wall and then you will have to replace it. Or, the pipes will be rusty and then you will mess up the in-wall plumbing by loosening connections, stripping treads or even splitting pipes -- then you will have to tear up the wall and re-plumb the whole thing.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Basementgeek said:


> You tell us, we are not there.
> If a magnet sticks to it, it is a steel pipe.
> BG


So if a magnet sticks to it, it means it's a thread pipe and not a copper pipe?


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Solidify said:


> So if a magnet sticks to it, it means it's a thread pipe and not a copper pipe?


If it's green does it mean that it's a parrot? I'm not meaning to be facetious here just pointing out that there are other possibilities. If a magnet sticks to a pipe and it is black or silver-colored then it's most likely an iron or steel pipe, if it doesn't and the pipe is copper-colored and obviously not plastic then it's most likely copper tubing. There are brass or bronze fittings in plumbing that won't stick a magnet too and some really old houses still have lead drain pipes.

Metals comprised of different elements have a different affinity for electrons or electronegativity. The explanation of a galvanic cell need not be done here, suffice it to say that if you attach copper directly to iron then you will get substantial corrosion. However, if you attach iron to copper with a union made of an alloy of intermediate electronegativity then you will have little corrosion.

If the pipes coming out of the wall are not copper (which they probably are not, judging by the size) and are not plastic (hard to tell because of the white paint but probably not either), then those fittings between them and the copper tubing are probably dielectric unions as I don't see a lot of corrosion.

You can try putting a pipe wrench on the pipe and another on the union and twisting. If they unscrew nicely, and the iron pipe's threads are in good shape, then you can install these. Make sure to wrap the threads with Teflon tape before installing. 










If someone soldered non-threaded iron pipe to the union and you twist then you are going to mess up the union and have to unscrew the iron pipe from where it's attached in the wall and go get yourself some short iron pipe threaded on both ends to use (most any hardware store will have some pre-cut and threaded or can cut and thread them to size if needs be).

Again, I'd just cut the copper tubing about three inches from the unions and install compression-fitting valves -- don't make more work for yourself if you don't have to.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Looking more closely at your pictures, those pipes coming out of the wall may well be copper as I don't see a thread anywhere and people usually don't solder iron pipe. A magnet and a bit of scraping with a utility knife should reveal the truth.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Gonna take a wild guess and say you have copper supply lines.......I cheated and looked at the garage pictures where the water heaters were visible.....:laugh: Never seen lav supplies like that.....but you're in Canada. If you want to save a little work you can install a 3/8" X 3/8" (or the metric equivalent for your size line) compression stop in the lav supply. All it takes is a tubing cutter and a few wrenches.......make sure to *not* over tighten any compression fitting!! Snug the compression nuts (firmly) and turn the water on.......use only enough torque to stop any drips. I made that mistake only once.....and ended up sweating the stop onto the pipe to keep from going back to the supply house to get another one.

Yes.......buy one stop for each hot and cold line at each fixture when you need to service them. I have stops for every fixture.....don't have to shut the whole house down to work on a single fixture. They're rarely used but do come in handy.....:thumb:


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> I cheated and looked at the garage pictures where the water heaters were visible


You my friend are one smart cookie. :thumb:


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Solidify said:


> You my friend are one smart cookie. :thumb:


:rofl:

Just observant......


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

I've been suggesting this for several posts now but no one seems to be listening to me. Let me reiterate, the easiest way to accomplish what you want to do is to cut the smaller-diameter tubing about three inches out from the larger-diameter tubing (we are talking under the sink here) and install these, one for the hot-water line and one for the cold-water line:


How To Install a Compression Valve - YouTube

Measure the smaller diameter tubing and make sure that you can get the right size compression valves before cutting anything. The reason that you are cutting the tubing out a bit farther than absolutely necessary is to give yourself some "wiggle room" should you mess up.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

What do you mean when you say:


> cut the smaller-diameter tubing about three inches out from the larger-diameter tubing


I don't understand why I need to cut the tube that comes through my wall...

Edit: And I watched the video but I don't know if once I take off the old riser that my pipe will be like the one in that video...


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

1. Copper tubing (or pipe) that's coming through the wall.


```
_____
1_____====2
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2. The smaller tubing that is soldered to the larger tubing/pipe.

Measure the _smaller_ tubing. If it's 3/8 inch then you can cut the _smaller_ tubing, the one that goes up to the faucet itself, and attach a 3/8 inch compression-fitting type valve onto that. You then use either a threaded or compression type tubing from that up to your new faucet.

LDR 537 6200 Low Lead Shut Off Street Valve 3/8-Inch Compression x 3/8-Inch Compression, Chrome: Amazon.ca: Tools & Building Supplies

If you were to cut the larger tubing then you would have to install a larger size step-down valve, but there is no room to do that. You want valves under the sink so that servicemen and you can turn of the water their to fix or replace a faucet without having to turn off the water to the entire house.

Also, was that larger pipe copper or steel and, if steel, was it threaded? What are the diameters of both?


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> Also, was that larger pipe copper or steel and, if steel, was it threaded? What are the diameters of both?


That's what I have a hard time figuring out because the end of the big pipe (1) us merged with the other piece so I can't see if it's smooth or threaded, not to mention there is paint everywhere. And I can't just turn off the water supply to check it because I would need to turn off the main gate valve for the entire building's water supply (triplex) and I don't want to do that until the day the job will be done since I don't want to be constantly bothering my tenants. I'm trying to get the most prep work done before.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I took more photos to try to give you a better idea of what I'm working with:


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

The larger tubing is too short and too painted-up to do anything with anyway. That smaller tubing is 3/8" as far as I can tell. Looking at plumbing supplies sold on Amazon Canada it looks like you use US plumbing measured in inches rather than metric.

Go to your local hardware with that picture and I'm sure that they can set you up with the right supplies. You will need a little tubing cutter ($8 in the US but it looks like they may be twice that in Canada, probably due to import taxes).












You will need two 3/8" to 3/8" compression-type valves, which will probably be straight as shown below but angled are handy of you can find them.












You will need two faucet connectors. These can be of two types: the easiest to use is the more expensive and has inner rubber washers and just screws onto the end of your valve and then to the faucet -- make sure that the small in is of the size that will screw onto your valve and the large end of the size that will screw onto your faucet. Buy a connector long enough to give you a bit of slack. If you have to, it's better to by too long a connector and just coil it in a loop rather than having one too short. 











The other type is a 3/8" metal or plastic tube similar to what you already have there. With this you would use the compression ferrule on the other side of the valve and the nuts that come with the faucet. I'm going to post a picture of this type as it's what you already have in your pictures, except that the one end will be in a compression fitting rather than soldered. These work equally well as screw-on connectors and are less expensive but a bit (not much) harder to install.

Getting up under a sink to attach a faucet is a pain and hard to do with regular tools. A faucet wrench makes the job much easier.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

OK. I'm just confused about when you say compression fitting. I know there are multi-turn and quarter turn shut off valves but I don't understand the different ways to fasten the shut off valve to the tubing that comes out of the wall.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

compression fittings - YouTube

What he calls an "olive" we call the ferrule.

Compression fitting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Why will i need a tubbing cutter? Cant i just use the compression fitting on the shut off valve to connect the faucet connector to the 1/2" copper pipe that is coming out of my wall?


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

How are you going to get a nut and ferrule on your tubing without cutting it? You _could_ install a valve directly onto the 1/2 inch tubing coming out of the wall. To do this you would have to de-solder the reduction joint and then clean and flux the tubing and then solder an appropriate-size valve onto it. If you are good at soldering plumbing in tight spaces, go right ahead. You also could try a compression fitting on the 1/2 inch pipe after de-soldering the joint and cleaning it but the tubing is so gunked-up with paint and solder and so close to the wall that I'm afraid you almost certainly would have leaks, which is why I didn't even recommend it.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Oh ok! I get it now. You concluded that the copper is soldered to the
Faucet line/speedway so the only ways to get the old parts off before being to attach the new shut off valve is to either: a) desolder the two ends from eachother or b) cut the bigger copper pipe so that we can start fresh with a new shut off valve compression.. 

Did i understand this correctly? If so, is there anything else i can do to confirm it is currently soldered together without turning off the main water supply?

Do you recommend i cut or desolder? And once the 1/2 coppper is free, should i attach the shut off valve with a compression fitting or by soldering it?


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Well, if that pipe coming from the wall is copper it's soldered. If a magnet doesn't stick then proceed no further. If it pipe coming from the wall is steel then the reduction fitting may be soldered or screwed on, scrape a bit of paint off and see.

No! I said to cut the _smaller_ copper pipe and to use a 3/8 inch compression fitting valve on it -- this is the easiest way. You don't have enough room to cut the larger tubing even if it was in good shape. It would take a long time with paint remover and steel wool to even get it ready to cut and more time with a torch to remove the old fitting so that you could salvage the full length of the tube. Even then a compression fitting would probably leak so you would have to use a solder-type fitting.

If you cut the small pipe and use a compression fitting valve the job should take 15 minutes. If you go to try to desolder, clean and resolder a valve onto the large tubing you are looking at an hour or more (or longer if you find the tubing now too short or too corroded, in which case you will have to tear into the wall and install a splice too).


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

If you use 3/8 fitting, remember the line you tying into is 3/8 thin wall. Thin wall is bendable, not good on flexing much. I still looking at your pictures it is steel.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

So if I understand this correctly.. you're suggesting to cut the small pipe since it has much more play and then I can slide the soldered parts off and save the entirety of the bigger pipe for future use... whereas if I were to cut the biggger pipe, I'd lose room for play when I need to attach the new compression shutoff valve?

Which part of the picture do I need to try to put a magnet on?


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Solidify said:


> Why will i need a tubbing cutter? Cant i just use the compression fitting on the shut off valve to connect the faucet connector to the 1/2" copper pipe that is coming out of my wall?


You won't need to do any connections on the 1/2" pipe as long as it is not leaking......forget the 1/2" pipe, period. No need to beat yourself up over this small project.......get a small tubing cutter and cut the 3/8" supply tube in a convemient location where it is relatively straight. Use a 3M pad to remove the tarnish on the outside of the tubing where it fits into the valve. Install the valve and turn the water back on.......you may need to wash up your hands when doing the faucet install....or need water for some reason. 

Basin wrench would be nice to have but not needed......but is very nice to have. 

Bendable copper tubing is not thinner......it is softer and often thicker than 'hard' copper tubing. The process of drawing the copper into a tube causes the copper to become hard and unbendable. In order to get the soft properties of the copper back it must be annealed......and soft copper tubing is more $$$.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

LOL, I wonder why this is taking so long -- I literally could have had shutoff valves installed in 15 minutes, far less time than I've spent posting. This is why I keep saying to just install a 3/8" to 3/8" compression fitting-type valve on the *smaller* tubing, cutting it about three inches out from its join to the larger tubing - it works and is the easiest way. The 3/8" tubing is in pretty good shape and would take only a bit of paint stripper and steel wool to prep it.

Now, you _can_ attach valves directly to the larger pipe/tubing too and this is the way a "professional" job would be done. However, to do so you will have to have a blowtorch, flux, solder, an asbestos cloth fire shield and the knowledge and skill to do plumbing soldering. I don't see threads so I'm assuming that that larger tubing is soldered to the step-down junction, whether its steel or copper.

If the step-down adapter is screwed on to a steel pipe please tell us -- you have not yet and this is very important to know.

I doubt, even if you de-soldered the joint and cleaned it up with paint thinner and emery cloth that you could get a compression fitting to not leak as the pipe/tubing is in too bad of shape. Soldering will fill minor imperfections on an old tubing, provided it's clean and well-fluxed.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)




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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

I installed water lines in an 80yr old house.......complete system from the meter with 2 full baths, kitchen, and laundry room. I used sheet metal between the copper and wood framing for a shield......and kept a garden hose nearby (connected to the neighbor's house). I gutted the whole house and started with the frame......only took 1 1/2 years. But I was only 26 when I started.

I put stops with waste fittings in strategic locations......it was winter and I didn't have the equipment to air test and had to drain the system in freezing weather. Had one pin-hole leak that didn't show up til the next day......I was happy. Only one leak. Used 3/4" copper for all main runs and didn't drop down to 1/2" til I headed for the last fixture. Perhaps I should have thought about filling 3/4" lines with hot water......:ermm:.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

A compression fitting is how the valve connects , some are threaded and screw on, some are solder on, and these use a nut and sleeve that goes around the pipe when you tighten the nut it compresses the sleeve to hold it on to the pipe.> Compression fitting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> A compression fitting is how the valve connects , some are threaded and screw on, some are solder on, and these use a nut and sleeve that goes around the pipe when you tighten the nut it compresses the sleeve to hold it on to the pipe.





> If the step-down adapter is screwed on to a steel pipe please tell us -- you have not yet and this is very important to know.


How can I find out whether the step-down adapter is screwed or soldered?

P.S.: MPR, that photo helped tremendously.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

If that pipe coming from the wall is copper (magnet doesn't stick) it's soldered (or glued if it's plastic). If the pipe coming from the wall is steel (magnet sticks) look for threads. If there are no threads it's soldered (or hidden inside the fitting but usually pipe threaders make longer threads than that).

The larger pipe coming from the wall is too painted up in your pictures for us to tell anything. You might take some paint stripper and steel wool to it if you want us to take a closer look. However, I still suggest just putting the valves on the 3/8" tubing as everything back of there is already connected and doesn't leak.

Plumbing fittings are expensive and the less you have to use the better off you are in terms of time and price.


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

If the plumbing in the basement is copper I'd bet the pipe in the wall is, use a little sandpaper or emery cloth and clean the paint off it the color will tell you what it is.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

MPR, I understand where you are coming from by recommending me to just add the valves on the 3/8" lines because it will be a less costly and easier job. But wouldn't it look like a freakshow of pipes down there? From copper (if it is copper), then that step-down adapter, then the old faucet line, the valve, and then the new faucet line all the way up to the faucet? 

Wouldn't that mean that there is a more of a chance for leaks since there are more, lets just call them unnatural connections...

I think I'm going to remove the whole sink when I do the work since it will help me work better/have better access to the wall where the pipe is coming out of... because I couldn't even get to the small peice of copper behind the step-down adapter with sandpaper (That's how much of a bad spot it's in). 

So tempting to scrap the whole vanity and do a clean job. Maybe I can find some free vanities/or cheap ones for sale on Craigslist or KiJiJi, etc. If I do this job, I want to do it right the first time around.

*Edit:* One last thing. I know what needs to be done but I have one last question, hear me out. I guess essentially what I am asking from the collective of most of you that have some experience with home renovations is; is it worth the trouble to do the job well (ie: de-solder and attach the valve to the 1/2" copper pipe).. would it come back to bite me the **** down the road because I didn't do it right? (attached the valve to the 3/8 line instead)?


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## Wrench97 (May 10, 2008)

Ideally you would just use 1/4 turn solder on valves to the 1/2 copper that appears to be coming out of the wall, but for a first project there not enough room to work in there of course any connection increases the chance of a leak but done correctly it's a very little chance.
Personally I still use copper supply lines up to the faucets copper is harder to work with but I just don't like the idea of hoses even if they are stainless steel braided Teflon tubes.
Compression fittings when installed correctly are good they are used on the air brake lines of trucks and trailers they normally run at 120-130 PSI without any problems.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

A compression fitting-type valve on that 3/8" tubing should last thirty years or more, depending on how many time you shut off the valve and if it limes up or not. We built the house here thirty years ago and none of our compression fittings have leaked yet.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Thanks Wrench but I think I've made up my mind that I want to slowly get rid of the copper. 

MPR, I just checked the rest of the faucet/toilet lines in my house and they are all exactly the same (i.e.: the big copper step-down adapter soldered together). I hate old homes... :facepalm:


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