# System Hangs intermittently - I'm stumped



## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

This is my first post so thankyou for reading 

I have recently purchased a new system. It is an AMD Athlon X2 3600 64-Bit Dual Core Machine with upgraded RAM to 1GB, HDD to 300GB and the nVidia 7600GT video card. Further/full specs are here.

Everything is fine with the machine except it hangs intermittently. It occurs anywhere between 5 to 15 minutes _when the PC is in use_. When it is not being used, the PC runs smoothly with no problems - I can leave it on for days with no issues.

The hangs typically occur when a user is doing normal activities ie., surfing the web, using Windows Explorer, iTunes, notepad etc. The display just hangs and the keyboard and mouse do not respond. The only way out is to press the reset button. (Incidentally, I've spent a few hours playing games and it has never once hung during a game....yet!). 

Because there is no memory/stack dumps, blue screens or other error messages, I suspected that it was the nVidia video card and that it may need it's drivers updated. When it arrived, it was running ForceWare 91.31. I have since upgraded it to use ForceWare 91.47 but still experience these problems.

I was advised by the site I bought it from to return it to the suppliers to have them look at it as it is still under warranty. I took it back there on Saturday and after a 70+km round trip of driving, was told that it was fixed - they cited a problem with the power supply pins and said they put an adapter on it and that they could no longer reproduce the problem. However, as soon as I got it home and plugged it in to test - it hung again within 5-6 minutes.

I rang them and they said they didn't know what else it could be - perhaps I should get a gruntier power supply. I already have a 480W one which friends have since said is more than sufficient for what I am running. The supplier also said that perhaps it's due to the poor quality of power in my area (known as an older area when it comes to infrastructure) - I don't know, this last one sounds like a brush off....

Anyway, I have been researching more on these possible causes and have arrived at the following conclusions:

1. Problems could be due to power spikes/surges/sags
2. Problems could be due to high CPU temperatures

If any of these are the case, I'd be interested to know whether these are the right steps to try out, in order to fix this quickly:

* Benchmark the temperature in the BIOS then, on reboot after the next hang, check the BIOS temperature again. Alternatively, I will run something like MBM5 or HMonitor to monitor my CPU temperature.
* Move the PC from where it is (under a desk, on the carpet) to on top of the desk and/or run the PC without one side on to see if this fixes it.
* Take the PC to a friend's place on a different power grid and run it there.
* Invest in a spike protector or inexpensive UPS for around AUD$100. (Do spike protectors protect against sags as well?)

What do you reckon? Anything I'm missing or should be doing differently? Needless to say, this is a very annoying problem and I look foward to receiving your input. :4-dontkno 

Thanks in advance! :1angel:


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

If you suspect poor quality power in your home I would use a ups, they can correct it, and I would start there because poor power can make bad things happen.

I would like to see the psu specs, including the name brand, amps of the +3.3V,+5V and +12V, these should be listed on the side of the psu.



> they cited a problem with the power supply pins and said they put an adapter on it and that they could no longer reproduce the problem


Maybe they put a 20pin to 24 pin power adapter on it, this would suggest to me that the psu is inadequate for the system but without knowing the details or having the psu specs I am speculating.

I would run a full spread of tests on it to really stress and check out the hardware,,,

1) Memtest86 on each stick of ram individually for at least 8 hours each.
2) Hardrive manufactuers utilitys to checkout the hdd's.
3) Prime95 for atleast 24 hours if it will run without error, prime will test for heat,psu,mobo,cpu and ram, it won't test video cards or hdd's. Prime also won't tell you witch of the remaining components are bad but if it fails you know you have a hardware problem.

I am not thinking video card or heat because of your ability to play games for hours without problem.

This sure will be interesting please keep us posted


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

A big thanks for your detailed reply Doby...I will report back soon with the full PSU specs. I'm also inclined to agree with you about heat and video card not being the problem...

I'm grabbed memtest86, prime95 and the Samsung HD utility called HUTIL or SHUTIL (not sure which one to use) however a few more questions before I start:

1. Some of these utils require running from a floppy - I don't have a floppy drive. Is it sufficient running it from the hard drive or perhaps from a USB memory stick?

2. For the memtest86 tests, how do I run the tests on _each_ stick of RAM? Take out 1 stick and run the test, then replace and take out the other stick and re-run the test?

3. Is the computer able to be used during these 8-24 hour test periods? What if the PC hangs during the test (it sometimes hangs from just moving the mouse)

Thanks once again.


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## chauffeur2 (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi BlackBeauty, and Welcome to TSF!

In answer to your queries.....

1. Some of these utils require running from a floppy - I don't have a floppy drive. Is it sufficient running it from the hard drive or perhaps from a USB memory stick? 
*Yes you can, but you will have to alter the BIOS to boot from a USB device, or better still put it on to a CD and boot it from there.*

2. For the memtest86 tests, how do I run the tests on each stick of RAM? Take out 1 stick and run the test, then replace and take out the other stick and re-run the test?
*One stick at a time; then, with both sticks. This means that you will be running the test 3 times in all.*

3. Is the computer able to be used during these 8-24 hour test periods? What if the PC hangs during the test (it sometimes hangs from just moving the mouse)
*No. This is because the Memtest operates in DOS(prior to Windows® booting), and you don't have the mouse in operation, just the keyboard. The chances of the computer 'hanging' during the test would indicate that there are other problems, usually with the RAM.*

*Hopefully this answers your questions.* :wave:


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## Tumbleweed36 (May 14, 2005)

Hi,

The hardware team members have you on the right direction. Be sure to list more power supply information when you post back. Brand name, wattage, and amps per rail (listed on the side). I have a few concerns initially about a 400 watt supply being large enough to pull this unit.


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

Your welcome, My yeam members have answerd your questions as well as I could, its really great having a large tech staff here in hardware because when one of us ain't on another can fill right in.

As Tumbleweed weed said we really need the psu specs so we can all put are heads together on this one, I to am very concerned about the ability of the psu.


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

Hope it's okay to upload a word doc - but it's the specs from screens of SpeedFan which I ran...

I'm also currently running prime95 and will be doing so for the next 24 hours at least...

I have yet to find my damn screwdriver but will report back with full PSU specs shortly - sorry! :sayyes: 

As for testing the RAM, I'm lost. I can't work out how to use memtest86. I also have no A: or B: drive...there is an install.bat, memtest.bin, rawrite.exe and obviously the README.txt which has left me a bit miffed  

Thanks guys


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## chauffeur2 (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi BlackBeauty,

That Word doc is unreadable...try taking a screenshot of the SpeedFan™ results and post it as a .jpg image here.


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

sorry 'bout that...trying again.


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## Tumbleweed36 (May 14, 2005)

Hi,

That temp 2 is very hot for your rig, way out of normal range. Try running the Sensorview program under my signature and see what it says about temps, voltages, and fan speeds. That would permit us to compare the two and get a better reading.


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

Thanks Tumbleweed....see attached - thanks 

Also, Prime95 is still running. 

(BTW, the man is whisking me away for a myster long weekend away for my b'day so I'll be back possibly Monday....)


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## Tumbleweed36 (May 14, 2005)

Hi,

First of all, happy birthday. Second, you must have a very nice man to do that for you....or, you are a very special person. :heartlove 

Please clarify, was this temp you just posted for at-rest or under heavy stress? If it was at-rest, you have a severe heat problem. Post back and let us know and one of us can use that data to help pinpoint the problem in that area.


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

Thanks TW 

The temp I posted was at-rest. Well, a couple things are running - Prime95 is running for the next 24 hours, and I have Outlook, one instance of FireFox and two Windows Explorer windows. Certainly no games, music apps nor video editing applications.


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## Tumbleweed36 (May 14, 2005)

Hi,

Just to be safe, let's wait until you get the memory tested and run the program (Sensorview) again while the computer is resting. Then, we can take a more accurate look at it. Have a great weekend and a happy birthday...will look for your data when that is done.


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

If you were running prime when you took the readings with sensorview then the system was not at rest and the 52C when prime is running is in the normal range because prime puts a heavy load on it.

I tend to think you were running prime when you took the readings because of the cpu and memory usage.

Prime will almost always fail when the cpu temp hits 60C.

Look closer on the memtest site they have a version that can be run from a bootable cd but you have to use a program such as nero to create a bootable cd and copy the iso image to it.

A better way would be to get UBCD for free it contains memtest and a lot of other goodies, look under the FAQ's for directions

http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

Thanks Doby, I've burnt myself a UBCD and will give it a go tonight. First, I will run Sensorview again on my machine while it is completely idle and post the results.

Also, I may also stop Prime from running altogether - I read their site again and it says it takes up to a month to complete???


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

Darn I was not clear on that, when you start prime under the options tab select "torture test", This is a stand alone test that simply stresses components.

Sooo sorry I should have been more clear on that, I typically use this to stress,burn in and check new systems hardware.


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

Please don't apologise Doby - I should have known better myself 

But one question I have is that when I start a 'Torture Test', it offers me options of what type of Torture Test. Last night I chose 'Blend' and hit OK but about 9 hours later it was still going with an expected completion of a few weeks time. Hrmm....I'm not sure how to just get a standard stress test out of it (and reading stress.txt, I'm none the wiser)....

Having said that, I'm expecting to try out the UBCD sometime tonight (hopefully) and will report back with those results.

Also, here are the SensorView results while the PC is _at rest_:

Temperatures
CPU: 38 deg C / 101 deg F
SYS: 32 deg C / 90 deg F
AUX: 32 deg C / 90 deg F
HD0: 38 deg C / 101 deg F

CPU Usage 0%

Memory Usage 28%

Fans
CPU Fan2058 RPM
SYS Fan0 RPM
AUX Fan0 RPM
CPU Fan0 RPM
AUX Fan0 RPM

Voltages
VCoreA: 1.30V
+3.3V: 3.31V
+12V: 12.00V
+VBAT: 3.18V


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

Yes try and run memtest from the ubcd but it needs to be run on only one stick off ram at a time, this is important, while your in there see if you can get us the psu specs.



> expected completion of a few weeks time.


Don't worry about that the main thing is you were able to run prime for nine hours, this shows the hardware can take some stress with out prime failing, you don't have to let prime finish. It was also good you ran the blend test. After the results of memtest if we don't find nothing we will again use prime but a different test for a much shorter duration while monitoring the temps and voltages with prime.

Your at rest temps and voltages are normal so we continue testing till we find something


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

Okay, thanks everyone for your patience...I'm slowly getting there. Here are my PSU specs:

Rexpower Comtex Enterprise Ltd
Both ATX and ATX 12V are ticked

Voltage/Model: PL-400

AC Input:
115V (60Hz) = 10A
230V (50Hz) = 5A

DC Output:
+3.3V = 32A
+5V = 40A
(Max 255W)
12V = 20A
-5V = 0.5A
-12V = 0.8A
+5Vsb = 2A

I ran memtest-86v3.2 on both sticks of RAM for 3 passes with 0 errors - should I run it again on both sticks for any longer/more passes?

The PC is currently now testing 1 stick of RAM - so far, 1 pass and 0 errors. Again, should I be doing this for 8 hours even though I have no errors so far?

Thanks


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

3 passes is really only a quick check, you may have read where some recommend this but seeing as yours is a intermittent and isolated problem you should run 8 hours each stick to be sure.

I have to check the psu specs will get back to you on that


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

thanks doby  my test on one stick of RAM went successfully - it ran overnight (~10 hours) with no errors.

however this morning before i ran out the door for work, I switched over and put the other stick in by itself but the pc did not boot up completely - instead, it emitted a continuous series of 'long', 1-2 second beeps....?


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

Remove that suspect stick out of the computer and run the computer normally with the known good stick in and see if the problem with freezing contiues


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

*okay, found something...*

okay, found something.

i mustn't have had that last stick properly seated on the m/b 'cos the beeping was a one-off....but i have found the following:

memtest run on both sticks and each stick individually have been okay (40+ passes, 0 errors) BUT when I do the single-stick tests, this is the only the case when the RAM is in 1 of the 2 bays on my m/b

I have 2 bays - a green and orange one. The green one works OK.
However, if the single RAM stick is placed in the orange bay, the computer boots but I have no display - ie., the monitor LED stays orange instead of the usual green....

What do you guys reckon? Is this a motherboard issue? Perhaps I can get the supplier to put a new m/b in....?


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

> Install at least one DIMM module on the slots. Memory modules can be installed on the slots in
> any order.


I copied that directly from your manual, this tells me that the stick should run in either dimm, but if the ram passed memtest it should be ok. I am not sure why it won't run in the orange slot on some boards this is a limitation but the way I understand the manual it should. This would be a good question to firer off a email to msi tech support.

In the mean time run prime again, run the torture test but this time check
"in place large fft's(max heat, power consumption)"

Run for 30 minutes or so and report your temps and voltages while it is running. I want to see if the voltages fall off at all.

In looking up the psu specs other than you have posted I have found that this psu comes with a case, thats about it no other info available, I suspect you are under powered with the video card you are running. Nvida recommends with pci-e that 12v rail should be 26A yours is only 20A.

Please read this in its entirety it will give you a better understanding on what I am trying to say

http://www.techsupportforum.com/showthread.php?t=107466

I am thinking that the psu does not have enough amps on the 12v to properly supply the video card, this is what I suspected in the beginning but in your very first post you said it happens during "normal activities" and I would think it should happen when the card is stressed such as playing a game. This is why all the tests, to try and eliminate other possibilities so if you could try this last test I am hoping it will revel something


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

Excellent, ran Prime Torture Test again (from Windows with nothing running), this time for large FFT's, here are my voltages and temps over a 35 minute period (hope it's readable - if not, I can easily post the XLS of the results so just let me know  ):


> Time
> T=0	T=10	T=15	T=20	T=25	T=30	T=35
> Temperatures
> CPU	39C/103F44/112	45/113	45/113	45/113	45/113	45/113
> ...


I also had a thorough read of the link you provided (a big thankyou). I understand now what you mean about the importance of the Amps on the +12V rail. They say it should be 26A for an SLI35A - is this a type of video card comparable to mine?

Do you know if I have (or need) active PFC? Or should be concerned about multiple 12V rails?

Also, I do remember the guy at the store saying something about the 20pin vs 24 pin cables - he said something about mine being a 20pin and a 24pin and he put an adapter in to make use of the other 4 pins (which he thought had solved the problem initially)....


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

i'm starting to wonder whether it's a software issue? maybe i should just reinstall windows or something? tonight i was trying to upload photos to kodakgallery.com using their 'easy upload tool' which runs via activex - every time, it would get thru 7 or 8 photos then the pc would hang (as per normal)...

i also notice that even after the pc hangs, although everything is frozen (mouse, keyboard, display), the cd/dvd drive can still be opened/closed...


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

All your temps and voltages are fine even under stress but I am still leary of your psu because these things can cause explained events, more on that later because you need to try some other things since your hardware appears to be strong.

1) Turn down hardware acceleration, Start>control panel>display>settings tab>advance button on bottom>troubleshoot tab. Turn it down to none, if this stops the freeze then turn it up one notch at a time till the freeze starts again then back off one notch. I built a system with a biostar board that had a problem such as this but not as often and this worked, ended up with acceleration half way down.

2) Check your video driver version, start>control panel>system>hardware tab>device manager button. Open display adapters and double click your video card then driver tab. Tell us what version you are running?
You may want to check the nvida website and if there is a later version try them but follow the instructions on removal of the old driver, any questions on this just ask.

I admirer your persistence on this and thats exactly what it takes, as you can see we sorta moved to the software side of things, hope something turns up


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

Thankyou so much Doby - I am also incredibly grateful for your continued assistance and attention to the problems I'm having. I really appreciate your help here on the Tech Support Forums. I can't wait until this is all sorted - then I'll be able to give back to the forums.

Re: #1, I've turned hardware acceleration off. 'Enable Write Combining' is still checked. Interesting experience you had their with your Biostar board...

Re: #2, my driver details are:
Driver Name: NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT
Driver Provider: NVIDIA
Driver Date: 11/08/2006
Driver Version: 9.1.4.7



> When it arrived, it was running ForceWare 91.31. I have since upgraded it to use ForceWare 91.47 but still experience these problems.


I'll keep using it today and report back on the frequency of hangs.


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

Your welcome,it sure will be great when you get your problem fixed and when time permits offer some advice, thats what its all about and I am sure you have learned somethings that you can share.

We need to do one thing at a time to see what works but if the acceleration thing don't I would like you to review this about video drivers from Indoril one of our techs here at TSF.http://www.techsupportforum.com/showthread.php?t=117742

Since video drivers can cause system freeze I think this is the next thing to consider, I see you have already looked into this and upgraded the driver but Indoril recommends the 84.21 for max stability so if there is no improvement then try them.


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

This is great Doby - I've been using the PC normally for at least 2 hours with no hangs!! I may try upping the acceleration or just bite the bullet and uninstall/install 84.21.

What an obscure problem this has been to track down! 

I'll report back soon and hope you're having a great weekend.


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

I guess we are making progress, I've been pulling all the tricks out of the hat on this one, hope you and your's are having a great weekend too!


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## BlackBeauty (Oct 9, 2006)

when i set the hardware acceleration to anything but none/off, it still hangs.

when it is set to none, i can continue normal operation of the PC with no issues whatsoever...

next, i'll try the earlier (stabler?) driver version, then try to turn hardware acceleration back on...


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## Doby (Jan 17, 2006)

BlackBeauty you really got this narrowed down now, good job with your troubleshooting, hardware acceleration is directly tied to the video card and its drivers so yes try the earlier version of the drivers. I am keeping my fingers crossed


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