# Analog to Digital Thermostats



## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I got a good deal on digital thermostats so I'm switching them all to digital. However, my circuit breaker panel does not have its breakers labelled. Some of the breakers are labelled for things I've had to use in the recent past but nothing indicates which breakers are for the electric heating. How do I find this out (in order to know which breakers to turn off when installing the new digital thermostats)?


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## sobeit (Nov 11, 2007)

all you can do is to turn off the unmarked ones one at a time to see which is which. I am not sure which digital thermostats you have but the ones I installed you did not have to turn off the breaker.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> all you can do is to turn off the unmarked ones one at a time to see which is which.


Even if I turn off the unmarked ones one at a time, my heaters aren't on right now since it's September so I won't be able to tell anything.



> I am not sure which digital thermostats you have but the ones I installed you did not have to turn off the breaker.


I bought 10 of these: Aube Technologies

And I'm turning it off as a precaution since it's my first time doing this. Even the manual says to do so.

Here's what I'm working with:


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## sobeit (Nov 11, 2007)

turn your heat on or just the fan


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Say I turn on all my baseboard heaters to a minimum (i.e.. 5 degrees Celsius) and then go turn the breakers off one by one, checking each room for change one breaker at a time, how will I even tell if the heater went off (it will still be a bit warm obviously)?


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## sobeit (Nov 11, 2007)

Solidify said:


> Say I turn on all my baseboard heaters to a minimum (i.e.. 5 degrees Celsius) and then go turn the breakers off one by one, checking each room for change one breaker at a time, how will I even tell if the heater went off (it will still be a bit warm obviously)?


you still have to have a unit to push the heat or water through the baseboard. that is what you have to check. you have to use a little common sense about this or hire someone who knows what they are doing.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I still don't understand what exactly I need to do/check. Sorry.



> you have to use a little common sense about this or hire someone who knows what they are doing.


Excuse my ignorance but I was under the impression that this forum was here for just that. Not to be blunt but if you're not in the right mind to help me, leave it to the next person. Granted I won't electrocute myself but I'd like some guidance...


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Like Sobeit said, don't work with household AC circuits without knowing what you are doing. Obtain a single-probe non-contact voltage tester. Test your voltage tester by seeing if it will react to a known hot plug, then turn off the breaker you think may go to the heater. Test the heater's wiring to see if it's "hot" (meaning that AC voltage is present, not that it's warm), then proceed to the next breaker if it is. When you finally determine which breaker controls the baseboard heater then label it _for that heater only_. Proceed to the next heater and repeat the tests. Don't assume that all baseboard heaters are on the same breaker.

When you turn off a breaker it's best to lock the box when working with tenants and family. Once I was nearly electrocuted when a girl tenant turned a breaker back on so that she could dry her hair.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> Obtain a single-probe non-contact voltage tester.


Will either of the ones I have not work?:

Gardner Bender GCV-206 Volt/Continuity Tester

Vintage Square D Wiggy Voltage Tester Model 6610 VT 1 | eBay



> Test your voltage tester by seeing if it will react to a known hot plug, then turn off the breaker you think may go to the heater.


By hot plug do you mean an electrical outlet that has a current going through it, that has the breaker still on?



> Test the lines to see if they are hot and if so, then proceed to the next breaker.


What are the lines? How do I test the lines for a baseboard radiator with a voltage tester?



> Don't assume that all baseboard heaters are on the same breaker.


Oh believe me, I know. My house was wired upside down.. as I've seen with the breakers I've managed to identify thus far.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

No offense, but seeing your above post leads me to suggest that you contact an electrician, or take a course in home wiring before doing anything else. Working with wiring in a possibly non-code building is especially hazardous.


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Here are a few online resources that you might wish to read:

http://www.oshatrain.org/courses/studyguides/715studyguide.pdf

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/takefive/documents/Elec%20Safety%20Workbook.pdf

http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/118859/518.pdf


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Fair enough. I won't change the thermostats myself. But can you at the very least help me finish labelling my panel?


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Maybe you missed my above post. Here it is again, I a bit longer fashion:


Obtain a single-probe non-contact voltage tester.
Check your voltage tester by seeing if it will react to a known hot plug (that is, an outlet that you know has power is supplied to, like one with a lighted lamp connected to it).
Turn off a breaker that you think may go to the heater.
Test the heater's wiring to see if it's "hot" (meaning that AC voltage is present, not that it's warm). If you don't detect power, turn on the heater for a minute or two and see if it gets warm just to double check (you would do this for a light or outlet too -- it never hurts to flip a witch or plug in a lamp to double check things).
If you found the breaker that controls the heater, great -- label it _for that heater only_ then proceed to the next baseboard heater and check it for power. If it has no power, turn the breaker back on. If has power then label the breaker for that heater too. If the breaker didn't control the heater then proceed to the next breaker.
Don't assume that all baseboard heaters are on the same breaker, even in the same room.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

What are the specs on the old thermostats.......make and model??

Need more info on the baseboard heaters and how they are controlled.....make and model?? 

Is the upstairs fridge 220VAC......why the interlock on the breaker?? 

You can trace the circuits with a friend (via cel phone) and a voltage detector......or a working appliance (radio, lamp, etc.) and turning on lights in the rooms via the wall switch. Hard to say how the circuits are branched and one breaker will control multiple rooms in most cases. 

As you turn the breakers off, when the appliance or light goes off your helper tells you. Have them check other rooms and ID which ones are also off and mark the panel as needed. Water heaters and other appliances that are hard to tell when they are energized will need a voltage tester and access to the connection at the appliance. 

Most important is understanding the breaker panel and how it works. Once you figure out the distribution you can figure out the way the circuits are branched. Each breaker is a master outlet......the circuits are a carefully planned layout of extension cords.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

OK MPR, I'll do all that eventually when I have some time. Thanks for clearing it up.

SABL, 



> What are the specs on the old thermostats.......make and model??


T498A1810 - Honeywell T498A1810 - T498 Gold Electric Heat Thermostat



> Is the upstairs fridge 220VAC......why the interlock on the breaker??


I don't know what that means, so I can't answer you.



> You can trace the circuits with a friend (via cel phone) and a voltage detector......or a working appliance (radio, lamp, etc.) and turning on lights in the rooms via the wall switch. Hard to say how the circuits are branched and one breaker will control multiple rooms in most cases.


I did that for everything that is already labelled. That I know how to do. It's the heating that I was having a hard time to test because it's a bit less obvious.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

You're not working with a low voltage relay type of thermostat.....these work off the line voltage. You'll need to probe the connectors at the thermostat while a friend shuts off breakers to determine when the circuit is de-energized. If you follow the advice to get a non-contact volt tester it will make the process much simpler.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I took the easy way out and just turned off the main breaker to my whole house. I spent the day changing all the thermostats. It went well except for one that I wasn't able to install. 

There was no power coming out of the junction box that this outlet was using. I tried resetting the breakers one at a time but no luck. I went with my continuity tester (the little black discontinued device to see if there was live current but nothing). I had been using it all day and it worked well (it lit up when there was current). 

I put those plastic wire covers back on each copper wire and tapped up the junction box shut for the time being so no one gets zapped trying to reach for the light switch in the washroom. 

What a tiring day going up and down the stairs to label everything! 

Edit: Now I just need to check one more thing, aside from fixing what I mentioned above: the *load* on each thermostat. 

These are the new thermostats, which are 3000W max: Aube Technologies

While labeling my breakers today, I discovered that I have several 2-pole breakers that share a circuit with 3 thermostats (so essentially, there are 3 baseboard raditors on a single 2-pole breaker). Assuming I take the measurements (length) of each baseboard radiator, would there be a way to find out if they are safely paired on a single 2-pole breaker without exceeding the 3000W maximum?

Oh! And would someone mind suggesting me one of those non-contact voltage testers, preferably a reputable one?


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

Where and how are you installing the thermostats? Since these are high-voltage units you must install them according to code. This means running wiring of the proper gauge and type inside the wall (in conduit if code requires it) to a properly-mounted (and grounded if code requires it) junction box. Most jurisdictions won't let you do this yourself. Note that mounting a 240 V thermostat in a doorway where people are likely to be coming in with wet feet and then reaching up to change it is an electrocution waiting to happen.

As for voltage testers -- anything by Kline or Fluke is usually top-notch.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

The wires were already there from the old thermostats. All I did was change the thermostats. I think they were mostly 15A breakers with 12 gauge wire. All the junction boxes were grounded (I saw the white wire in there for all of them). 



> Note that mounting a 240 V thermostat in a doorway where people are likely to be coming in with wet feet and then reaching up to change it is an electrocution waiting to happen.


Sure but isn't that risk the same for everyone.. why do you make it seem like it's greater for me?


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

OK, I understand now -- there's a world of difference between installing new wiring versus just changing out a component whose predecessor has already been installed to code. I had visions of Romex running up the outside of the wall to a thermostat screwed directly to the wall and I was a bit concerned.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

:rofl: Disaster averted! 

How about the one thermostat I couldn't install... any advice?

And I'll but this tomorrow: Klein Tools | Non-Contact Voltage Tester | Home Depot Canada


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## MPR (Aug 28, 2010)

> There was no power coming out of the junction box that this outlet was using.


This wiring may have never been connected, check to see if a nearby floor heater is wired for a thermostat.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Thats the only baseboard heater/thermostat in that washroom. All the other baseboard heaters work well.

I should also mention the there is a single electrical outlet by the sink that has no ground that reads "Razor only" but doesn't work either (I tried it with my electric razor and no luck).


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Does the balcony outlet work?? I'm seeing one GFCI in the main panel. 

Are there any GFCI outlets in the place?? Many times one will be installed upstream and controls all the other outlets in the circuit. 

No ground on the razor outlet?? Was it replaced at one time and 'whatever was on hand' installed?? 

Once you get the non-contact tester you can probe each wire coming out of the main panel to see if any circuit has been disconnected. Never remove the cover unless you understand what's inside. 

Reminds me of the time I was renovating my first house and changing the service. Called the elec co to have the power shut off at the pole.....they said they couldn't turn the power back on until I had my final inspection once it had been shut off at the pole. I needed the power back on within a day......the house wouldn't be done for months. Followed the instructions of an electrician friend and cut the lines while they were live......I was very nervous....:4-scared:. I wimped out when it came to reconnecting and he came over the next day to make the connections at the weatherhead....:thumb:


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> Does the balcony outlet work?? I'm seeing one GFCI in the main panel.


No, it hasn't worked since we moved in here. I tried resetting it to no avail.



> Are there any GFCI outlets in the place?? Many times one will be installed upstream and controls all the other outlets in the circuit.


GFCI with the reset switch? Don't think I've seen an outlet like that yet.. only that breaker in the pic.



> No ground on the razor outlet?? Was it replaced at one time and 'whatever was on hand' installed??


Nope. All 3 razor outlets in the house are without ground. Built like that.

Haha yeah I'm pretty nervous doing this work but despite not sounding like I know what I'm doing on TSF, I'm smart enough to not dive into something unless I'm sure how it works/the dangers, which is why I ended up using the main.


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