# Building hidden computer



## Partholon

Not too long ago i fell into a good chuck of money so i decided to spend some of it finishing my home office and building a new computer. I just finished the office and now its time for the computer, but i was trying to think a little outside the box when it came to its placment and its cooling.

Basically my desk is against a wall the likes of which has an unused closet on the other side. So i was thinking it might be interesting to build the computer into that closet and then use wireless (bluetooth?) for my Keyboard and mouse and run the wires for an external Rom drive, monitors, maybe a USB/firewirehub through the wall to the office side.

Heres a basic painbrush image of what the office is like.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2391/office.png

My thinking is, i can build a fairly monster rig with a ton of fans and such and not have to hear the darn thing when its on. When the computer is technically in another room, loud fans become nonissue.

The problem is, i have little/no experience with "external" drives and usb hubs or wireless keyboard/mouses. Im worries that running them through the wall (granted not very far) will impact the performance. So heres the questions:



How well do wireless keyboard/mouses work when going through a wall? 

Do external dvd-burners compare in performance to normal internal?

Is there any significant reason that i wouldn't want my computer to be in a different room? (there is no enterence into that closet from the office) 

Im spending a good chunk of money on the project and i'm just not willing to sacrifice too much performance. I do a lot of video and image editing, and a little bit of online gaming so im particularly fussy when it comes to mouse and keyboard accuracy.

thanks in advance


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## WereBo

Allo Partholon :wave:

So far as wireless K'Board/Mouse etc. are concerned, I'd guess the distance from the PC box to desk would be approx 4 feet or less so, unless you have steel beams passing trough the wall, there shouldn't be any problems with that - My logitech K'board/Mouse has a range of at least 20 feet through several concrete walls (I can't test it any further, I run out of apartment :wink:

Re: USB CD/DVD burners, the main 'snag' is that USB-2 is only 480Mb/second, so you'd be burning/reading CD/DVD's veeerrry slowly. I know that external drives are available, but to date, that's their biggest drawback, slow speeds compared to internal units.

Unless you can find an extension monitor cable, you'd be limited to positioning the system by the length of your present cable on the monitor.

Depending on the size and specs of your rig + the length of time that it's on, you might need an air-vent in the closet, just to let some cool air in, otherwise you'd be recirculating the hot air from the PC, warming it up each time through the box.

[Thinks] With some cunning planning, you might be able to use an 'extractor' fan to pull the warm air out of the closet and use it to help warm the main room up :grin:

It's an intriguing idea though, as you say, you shouldn't have any problems with noise etc. :laugh:


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## Partholon

Im glad to hear that the keyboard and mouse would work, but the rom drive has me worried now. It would be silly to have to leave the room every time i wanted to put a disk in. im not sure how i can work around this issue, performance is #1.

As far as ventilation, im doing a new Hvac this spring, i can simply have a vent installed in that closet, the likes of which already has the runnings above it. That would keep it super cool in the summer and in the winter months ide just keep the vent closed (this closet is quite chilly with the door closed as of rite now, far colder then normal room temperature. i could always just open the door anyhow. The room that this closet is part of is just a guest room that is very rarely used anyhow. Origionaly i was considering putting an exterior vent on that closet (the one wall touches outside) but i have limited experience with vents and so i prob wont do it.

I already have an extra long monitor cable so im not worried about that.


Any suggestions as to what case i should get? im looking for absolute max performance. looks (obviously) mean nothing at all nor does how quite it is. That being the case maybe im better off building my own from scratch? I am an experienced carpenter so the the building wont be a problem, but i don't know how it would compare to the calculated mechanics of airflow in a factory built box. Can i match or possibly better the airflow in something i make? Remember size and cosmetics are 100% non issue.

I've googled it but havent come up with any good case plans for my purpose, the only stuff i've found are cases designed to be "pretty" not maximize cooling.


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## WereBo

I'm not really clued up on the various PC cases and what's the best for cooling and so on, but there's lots of threads here covering that topic, or another more clued-up member can chip in with some suggestions. There's also some posts about wooden cases here, too. They might give you some ideas about a wooden case. As long as you cut holes for fans, there's not a great problem with cooling.

One thing I've just thought of though, is switching the thing on, your present suggestion would entail having to walk through into the closet to hit the power switch, every time you wanted to switch it on. Depending on your building skills, could you build a PC front shaped hole in the wall, so just the front of the PC is flush with the wall on your side?

That way, you could power-up when you wanted and also have access to an internal CD/DVD drive in the PC, eliminating the need for a USB-drive.


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## Partholon

I already thought about how to turn it on, basically just extend the wires that are already attached to the case i used and run then through the wall into whatever switch i like. Or if im building a case from scratch - even easier just choose how long i want the power up wires to be and run them through. I could prob come up with a cool switch attached to my desk for powering up and down. still having trouble finding the best case for cooling though


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## Partholon

i wanted to edit my last post to add this , but it wouldnt let me:


One thing i forgot to mention and may or may not be clear is - im absolutely not willing to go with water cooling. Im paranoid about leaks and checking water levels and such isnt something i want to have to bother doing. Just wana put it in that nooke and only have to open it up every month or so to ensure no dust buildup.

Ive also been toying with the idea BTX form factor but ide have to do more research on it. still no luck finding building plans for the absolute best case cooling. Can be ugly, can be loud as a hot rod but all i seem to find are cases that comprimise. The closet is 8 feet by 4.5 feet, i have a lot of room, is there such thing as "too big" when it comes to computer cases for cooling?


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## Wrench97

BTX is a dead horse I think the only BTX boards you'll find still around are P965 or P945.

The switch only needs to be any momentary switch like a door bell switch.

If you run a USB hub on your desk the receiver of the keyboard /mouse can go there or run the receiver wire through the wall and plug in directly.

The Antec 900 is good for cooling as is the CoolerMaster Cosmos but pricey.
Or the CoolerMaster HAF, probably a good idea to vent the closet somehow otherwise you'll just circulate hot air in the case.

Another way to think about this (out side the box:grin is why do you need a case? I have an old P90 mounted to the bottom of a HO train platform works fine, with a newer system you'll need to add a fan to blow over the motherboard and of course a decent CPU cooler but without the case the components are not confined so air circulation is naturally better.


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## grimx133

I was thinking along the same lines as wrench. Build it in the open and use monster house type fans, you could get some serious airflow going. Or use a testbench type non-case, here's a link to highspeed pc, may be the sort of thing you're looking for.
http://www.highspeedpc.com/


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## Partholon

an open case like the pic in the link that grimx133 posted seems like a really good idea. The only reason i was leaning toward a more traditional case to begin with is because A. i thought that spesfic air movement in a computer case was spesfically designed to be superior (which is why i see people all the time say that you shouldnt get much benefit leaving the side of your case open) and B. i was worried about excessive dust build up without one. 

But upon futher consideration, there really shouldnt be much dust in a room that is never used as most dust is just human skin.

I could build a little rack like that easly, do you guys think that is the optimal way to lay a board? flat down like that rather then on its side as per typical.

I think that having the PSU below the mobo is somewhat less then ideal as it does generate some upward heat. so i could mout it rite next to rather then below. What if i were to sandwich the motherboard between two very large house fans? one sucking one blowing, would that be pretty good for cooling?


(by the way it has been decided, there will be an AC duct in that closet, recirculation of hot air should not be a problem)

great help thanks for the dialog


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## Wrench97

1 house fan will be more then enough.
In a closed room like a closet are you also planning a return duct? Another thought will the duct also supply heat in the winter, you may want to be able to switch off in that case.


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## WereBo

If you're opting for an 'open' layout, I'd suggest the board is mounted horizontally - That way, the expansion cards will be vertical and not need the 'mounting' rail along the top, that the cards usually get bolted to.


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## Partholon

alright, looks like i've got a pretty good starting plan for the "case". ill build it this weekend maybe post a pic when im done. that is assuming i get my parts from newegg on Friday. 

Any suggestions on how to deal with the rom drive delima? i hate the fact that externals are so slow. Is it possible to get a long sata wire and just build a casing around a normal internal drive to force it external?


By the way, im using the starter button from my first car as the turn on switch for the computer. I was 15 when my father passed and left me his mint, nearly all-origional 1958 DeSoto, which i (tragically) wrecked before i was 20. I kept some parts from it and thought that the trusty ol starter button would be perfect for the job (even with the car wrapped around a tree that old SOB would still turn over maybe it will bring that luck to my computer too)

I built the front of my desk to be something of a throw back to that old car, as the front of it is vaguely shaped like the dashboards curves. nothing tacky, just enough to taste the nostalgia/


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## Wrench97

3' SataII cable> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200075

Or perhaps a ESata connection 6'> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812123128
I like the starter button


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## WereBo

At least it will be a very tricky job to wrap the PC around a tree :grin:


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## Partholon

do those wires distances cause any significant hit to burning performance?


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## Wrench97

With the 6' Esata I think you will see some loss but not a great deal or anywhere near as much as a USB drive.


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## Phædrus241

Who needs a case? If you don't care about looks, why not just mount the motherboard, hard drives, and everything else to a bare metal frame and put that under the blast from an AC vent?  

Might work, might not, but worth consideration, eh?


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## Partholon

can anyone suggest to me a good USB Hub and a hub or whatever it is for connecting Bluetooth devices? i have a few things (like my cel phone) that say they can use bluetooth but ive never used the technology and dont know what it is i need for the connectivity. thanks again for all the suggestions, im nearly finished building the base that my computer guts will be mounted on. i know i said i dont care about looks, but i think that it will look nice anyhow.


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## Wrench97

There aren't any add in cards that I've seen for a PC one of these may work for you though. > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833340012


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## Partholon

is that what i would need to use a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse/gamepad and my cell phones bluetooth features? sorry im just a bit confused when it comes to bluetooth. also, how many different devices can i connect to one bluetooth hub?

im tying to go as wireless as possible, so that i can restrict the hole to as small as about a half dollar. (thats size of the surround plug i have for the hole ill be making)

I still haven't decided exactly what keyboard and mouse combo ill use, but im looking for something that has a charging station for the mouse. i freggin hate swapping out batts.


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## Wrench97

The keyboard and mouse usually come with their own receiver which I would use.
USe the add on for the phone. If you run 1 or 2 USB hubs on or near the desk top that will give you 2 wires to run along with sound plug and look for a HDMI monitor (smaller plug)


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## WereBo

I can use my phone's Bluetooth facilities with my stereo headphones, but I've never tried a Bluetooth mouse/keyboard so I can't really comment on them.

I use a wireless mouse/keyboard from *Logitech*, but the receiver unit is wired to the PC - The receiver also acts as a charging-dock for the mouse, the keyboard takes ordinary batteries. I bought it in Sept. 07 and it's using it's 2nd set of batteries, the 1st set were supplied with the units and lasted approx. 9 months.

Anyway, here's the Logitech range of wireless keyboard/mouse combos - There's an option to filter the range to Bluetooth ones, at the top of the page. The prices are in UK££'s, so there's a good chance you can get it cheaper, anywhere else in the World :grin:


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## Partholon

Yeah i realized only after reading further that most charging statsions double as the reciever, which means the wire would have to be run through the wall, which totally kills the purpose of having wireless. Im a bit disappointed, i was thinking i could plug the charging station in on the outlet directly behind chair on the opposite wall. Not sure how ill go about this, but i know that Mouses (mice?) (Mices?) that use normal batteries SUCK they drain them dry in like two weeks of typical usage and they ALWAYS die for me when im in the middle of a delicate cut or edit.

This morning i mounted all three of my monitors to the wall and ran the wires to the center one and through the wall to the closet it worked out really well and i look forward to using three monitors at once for the first time. The wires just barely reachd where the computer will be. 

Ill be using my two old 8800gts' (not run in sli) to run them until i can decided on what new cards i want. If i find that the computer chugs to much during games ill just restart and switch on SLI and use just one monitor. I cant find a better solution for triple monitors, products like Triplehead2go seem great at first, until you realize its resolution is horrible. im using 24 inch LCDs, each being 1920x1200. the maximum vertical resolution of the device is only 1024, i know first hand how bad LCDs look when not run at their native resolution. What a shame because i heard thats the only way to get sli, or triplesli while using multiple monitors. No matter, three monitors will still be fantastic for my editing.


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## WereBo

I just thunked another thought, here..... Why not mount a USB hub in the wall as a panel? That way, you could connect your keyboard/mouse receiver via USB by plugging it into the wall.... It would also handle your printer and other peripherals too









It would take some hunting around for a suitable USB hub to modify the casing, you'd need all the sockets on 1 side of the case etc., but it would work in theory.


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## Wrench97

How about a card reader I/O panel that would give you usb and a card reader mounted in the wall.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820132020


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## WereBo

That looks excellent - 4 USB sockets too


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## Wrench97

Plus the Esata and Fire wire ports for the DVD drive.


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## Partholon

wrench97 said:


> How about a card reader I/O panel that would give you usb and a card reader mounted in the wall.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820132020




WOW! that is an EXCELLENT idea. seriously, im headed out to staples rite now to see if they have anything like that, if not ill be ordering from new egg. +10 Points for you.


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## John Von Trapp

Cant wait to see the pics


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## Partholon

Im going to have to buy a new Operating System for this computer, my prior is OEM. any suggestions over the old debate of Vista or XP? I have never owned a computer running Vista so my experience is limited. I do recall hearing that it was vastly inferior performance wise, but i dont know if patches and such have fixed these problems. I do know that a lot of the parts im getting all say "for vista" though.

is it time to change to vista or buy another XP?


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## John Von Trapp

In my own experience, and I have been using Vista for a while now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. As long as you update it to the latest version, you will have NO problems whatsoever. I recommend it, even as an ex-Vista hater


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## McNinja

The people who get really bad vista performance are probably running low end hardware


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## Wrench97

Laptops especially seem to be problems on Vista, the only desktop complaints seem to be older or slower hardware.


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## Partholon

ill pick up a vista copy later today, i hate to invest in an OS that is going to be replaced by windows7 so soon, but i cant run on nothing.


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## Partholon

I already hate vista. Installation went fine, updates went fine, drivers installed fine. then for no reason it stopped reading the network. I was connected and online with no problems then i come back later and i cant get the bloody thing to read that im connected to router at all. 


"windows cannot find any networks"

even the little green light near where the ethernet cable plugs into the motherboard doesnt light up anymore. AHRRGG im so frustrated with it.


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## Wrench97

If your not getting the lights at connector try another cable first, does the router show a connection?


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## Partholon

yes ive tried other wires , including the one that runs my other computer (tested working) and no beans. updated the drivers too. also checked the bios, its enabled. also checked device manager, everything looks fine. also the green light is on until windows starts then it dies.

vista blows


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## Partholon

im pulling my hair out here, ten years of building computers and ive never had this kind of unjustified problem. how can something just stop working with no changes made. 

vista doesnt see my router at all but my routers light is on idicating that there is a computer connected via that port. ive connected other computers to that port and it works, ive connected this computer to other ports stil dont work. ive tried the other ethernet input on the motherboard that didnt work. i tried alternate drivers , that didnt work. i manually punched in my routers ip into IE nothing came up. i disabled and reenabled the ethernet ports that didnt work. Ipconfig says 


"Ethernet adapter local area connections 2:

media state . . . . .. . :media disconnected
Connections-specific dns suffix . :

Tunnel Adapter local area connection*7:

Media State . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :

Tunnel Adapter local area connection* 11:


Media State . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :

vista says it reads my ethernet ports in device manager and they are operating properly yet it doesnt read any network or internet at all. im ready to toss the damn thing out the window and go back to Macs. Ive never ever had any kind of stupid problems on my macs!


im going to take a guess and assume its got a problem with my old wrt54g 1.1, but that wouldnt explain why it worked just fine for about two hours. ill try to find vista64 firmware for the router


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## WereBo

It's a long shot, but have you allowed the router through the Vista firewall?


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## Partholon

yes and i completely disabled the vista firewall. i also got the latest firmware updates for the router still wont work. im so pissed off rite now. feel very ripped off by this software.


worst
os
ever


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## Wrench97

It's not the router if it works with other connections. in Device manager uninstall the Network adapter, reboot see if windows rediscovers it, I'm not convinced it's software related.


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## Partholon

already did that


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## Wrench97

In device manager are there any yellow marks or red X's?

You may want to test the Ethernet port using a version of live linux such as Puppy Linux.
http://www.puppylinux.org/downloads/official-releases/puppy-linux-42-deep-thought


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## Partholon

no error flags in device manager, and it says it is operating properly.

i pulled the HD out of my other computer and popped it in this one, booted up, dispite all kinds of missing drivers it was able to instantly get online. the problem cant be the hardware its obviously the vista.


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## WereBo

I've noticed that the Vista updates (on Mrs WereBo's laptop) keeps wanting to install 'updated' Realtek network drivers. 

I installed them the 1st time, and the network went belly-up. I uninstalled that particular update and re-installed the original drivers and all was well again. I did notice that the network light stayed on, even with bad drivers though.

Could this be related to your problem?

I'm not happy with, or very knowledgeable about Vista and my networking skills are sketchy, at best - The fact that the indicator light goes off makes me wonder whether a fault with the RJ45 socket, or related circuitry, on the mobo has developed.

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful with this - Purely for testing purposes, would you have a Win-XP install disc around? If it works with that, then it would definitely tie the problem down to Vista.

Edit: Hehehe... you just beat me to it :grin: At least it ties the problem down to Vista, rather than hardware :laugh:


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## WereBo

Sorry Partholon, all I can suggest is either uninstalling your last updates, or a complete re-install :sigh:


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## Partholon

the fact that it works just fine with the XP hard drive in makes me think that there is nothing wrong with any of the hardware. sense it cant get online at all, auto updating also cant be an issue.

i also tried a complete format and reinstall,twice, once with x64 and once with x86.


still same exact problem


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## WereBo

Daft question but, it said on the box that it's Vista-compatible?

If yes, then this is beyond me - All I can suggest is to try asking the 'Networking' section of TSF, they have some wizards there :4-dontkno


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## Wrench97

Yes that will eliminate the hardware as an issue, does the motherboard cd have realtech drivers for Vista on it if so, in device manager click on update drivers and point vista to the path on the cd.


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## Partholon

ive tried several different drivers including the latest and it didnt fix the problem. Im positive theres nothing wrong with my hardware. I was so disgusted with windows vista that i traded it for a stand alone version of Windows XP from a co-worker. Everything works perfectly now. 

Im very, very disappointed, i wanted to have more then 3gb of ram and was really looking forward to a new UI but the epic fail that is vista just wouldn't cooperate. 

That whole fiasco set me back quite a bit on my custom building, but now that its overwith i can get back to the more fun stuff. ill keep yas updated.


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## WereBo

Don't worry too much, Partholon, it won't be too long before Win-7 is released - That's supposed to be a lot better :wink:

One bonus though, Win XP should zip along a lot faster than Vista would, with all its 'bloatware' :grin:


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## Wrench97

If you ever want to dive in again Realtech has a Vista Diag. program as well as Vista 64 bit drivers on their web site> http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads...L)+/RTL8139D(L)/RTL8100(L)/RTL8130/RTL8139B(L)

It is not a common problem I can't say that I've ever ran into it before.


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## Partholon

my networking adapter is nvidia why would i need realtech tools?


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## Wrench97

What motherboard is this again?


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## dc88

If you haven decided on what to do with your disk drive yet heres a thought 
would it be at all possible to mount an internal drive in the wall so that just the face plate is seen one would shorten wire length a little and if you could customize the drive itself some how and position it to mach the design of the car instument panel might look cool very nice car by the way


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## Partholon

i had considered something along those lines DC88, but after deciding i wanted absolute silence the idea went out the window. Particularly sense ill be setting up RAID, i just didn't want the sound of hard drives at all. could have looked cool though yer rite about that.


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## dc88

i was talking about you cd/dvd drives but i didnt read the whole thred just first page didnt notice other pages until after i posted that you probably already have them done sorry wasnt paying attention


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## Partholon

oh i thought by disk drives you meant heard disk drives, as i origionaly considered making them external for easy swapping out.


my Blu-ray drive and dvd burner are being just to the right of my seating position, approximately where the old radio is located in the dash board. I have the remains of my cars radio face plate (those old tuners use a steel face plate over the electrionics, and the numbers and such are actually written on the faceplate not the radio its self) 

i was trying to think of a way that i could modify the drives so that i could use the faceplate as a "frame" for them, but i just don't see that happening because im just not willing to hack the plate apart so dramatically. it would require me nipping off a good 20% of the trimming which is where all the classic decor is.

I just finished the Starter button but now have to decided exactly where i want to mount it. Obviously i cant have it near where it would have been on the dash, it would be too likely to be accidentally hit by my keyboard or mouse. Im thinking about bulding a custom stand for my monitors (i have three of them) and sorta attaching them all together. doing so would give me a space at the bottom trim of the monitors to mount the button. only problem there is, ive never really mucked with an LCD before and the risk could outweigh the adventure of it.


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## WereBo

I hadn't noticed you were building it on a 'car' theme, otherwise I'd have suggested a car's ignition-key switch for your power on - The 2nd switch position is a 'momentary-make' type switch, same as the power on/off :grin:


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## magnethead

Partholon said:


> oh i thought by disk drives you meant heard disk drives, as i origionaly considered making them external for easy swapping out.
> 
> 
> my Blu-ray drive and dvd burner are being just to the right of my seating position, approximately where the old radio is located in the dash board. I have the remains of my cars radio face plate (those old tuners use a steel face plate over the electrionics, and the numbers and such are actually written on the faceplate not the radio its self)
> 
> i was trying to think of a way that i could modify the drives so that i could use the faceplate as a "frame" for them, but i just don't see that happening because im just not willing to hack the plate apart so dramatically. it would require me nipping off a good 20% of the trimming which is where all the classic decor is.
> 
> I just finished the Starter button but now have to decided exactly where i want to mount it. Obviously i cant have it near where it would have been on the dash, it would be too likely to be accidentally hit by my keyboard or mouse. Im thinking about bulding a custom stand for my monitors (i have three of them) and sorta attaching them all together. doing so would give me a space at the bottom trim of the monitors to mount the button. only problem there is, ive never really mucked with an LCD before and the risk could outweigh the adventure of it.


Leave the LCD's in their stock housings, and make a one piece housing that all 3 LCD's can mount to (if they have wall mounts on back) or that straps to the pedastals.


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## Partholon

Its a very loose car theme, odds are noone would notice the relation if they wern't already informed of it. with the exception of a few tells, like the starter button but even that isnt as obvious as it might seem. As much as loved that old gal' , making the setup too much like it would just be tacky. And im the respectable type, as it were.

As for the monitors, would building a bracket around them cause any accumulated heat issues?

and does anyone know of any devices similar to Triplehead2go that are capable of higher resolution? im running three monitors of 1920 x 1200 each (24 inch) and that device is only capable of that resolution with two monitors.


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## Wrench97

Use the Triplehead2go unit on 2 monitors and hook the third up to the second video port on the video card?


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## Partholon

the purpose of the triplehead is that it allows you to use multiple monitors with SLI enabled. i already have my two video cards which has more then enough ports for thee monitors in non-sli mode. but, without a device like the triplehead, if i want to enable SLI i need to make it so only one monitor is on.


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