# [SOLVED] Fixing Outdoor Receptacles



## Solidify

I have two outdoor receptacles like this, one on the front porch and the other on the back balcony. Neither of them work. My voltage tester is showing no current. I checked my panel and only saw one circuit breaker that has a "test" button so I pressed it and then went back to test both receptacles but no difference. I do not have a single GFCI outlet in my home, as far as I'm aware.

How do I fix these outlets?


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Did you press the red test button? The breaker is your GFCI.

Do they have waterproof covers installed, look rusty?

BG


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

The button is the yellow thing and yes i pressed it.
No they are both as is.. Have always been since we moved in.


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

It should, I would think, a test button and a reset button. I don't have any GFCI breakers, just GFCI outlets.

Turn the breaker off and then back on and check again for voltage.

Your outlets should have waterproof covers on them. See a fair amount of rust.

BG


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## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Does your Klein's LED turn red when you test the hot (small) slot of the receptacle?

Does your Klein's LED turn red when you test any other known-working receptacle?


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Bg, turning breaker off and on doesnt help. Im not even 100% sure thats the breaker for the outdoor outlets..
I just assumed it was.. 

And yes the tool works well on other receptables but for these two outdoor ones it doesnt go red at all no matter what side hole its in


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

That breaker could control your kitchen, bathroom. GFCI are code I think for those rooms. 

You need to check the outlet itself to see if the wires are hot. Turn off the breaker 
pull the outlets out of there box. Turn the breaker back on, now check for power where the wire are connected.

BG


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



> You need to check the outlet itself to see if the wires are hot. Turn off the breaker
> pull the outlets out of there box. Turn the breaker back on, now check for power where the wire are connected.


Like I said, the panel hasnt been labelled to identify those outdoor receptacles so it will be near impossible to know if I've turned off the correct circuit breaker before proceding to safely dismantle the receptacle.


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## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

From the looks of your pictures looks like the terminals are taped so I would remove two screws and pull outlet out then can test the terminals with multimeter. Only if you feel safe doing so. I work with electrical every day so does not bother me to take outlets out live.


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## Old Rich

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I've used one of these for years to trace wiring back to circuit breakers . . 

Sperry Instruments CS61200 Circuit Tracker Circuit Breaker Finder - - Amazon.com


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I would also replace the outlets. They are broken and rusted, where there rust you probably have corrosion on the cooper wires.

Don't use the kind that only can be wired by sticking the wires in the back. 

Also try to make sure you are in the correct breaker box.

BG


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## Vegassparky

In your pic the GFCI breaker is tripped. That's the result of a fault, or pushing the test button. Switch it off, then close it to reset it. As mentioned, check bathrooms, kitchen, garage, along with outdoor recepts to see what's hot, and what's not.


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## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

If any doubt, kill all power, (main fuse or breaker). If you don't feel comfortable, call a licensed electrician.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

oscer, I dont have a multimeter nor do I know how to use one to test the terminals.

rich, a tad bit expensive for something I won't be needing after I get these outlets in order. I will label the panel afterwards. Nothing is labelled now because we had a new one installed last summer and I didn't have a chance to.



> I would also replace the outlets. They are broken and rusted, where there rust you probably have corrosion on the cooper wires.


yes, ill get GFCI outlets for both the front and back balcnony. I'll replace them both. I'll also get those weather resistant covers for them that allow you to have an wire plugged into the outlet and still have the box closed



> Don't use the kind that only can be wired by sticking the wires in the back.


no no, i heard the older ones that need to be screwed in are the better bet anyways. 



> Also try to make sure you are in the correct breaker box.


yep, that's what ive been trying to have help identify this whole time.



> In your pic the GFCI breaker is tripped. That's the result of a fault, or pushing the test button. *Switch it off, then close it to reset it.* As mentioned, check bathrooms, kitchen, garage, along with outdoor recepts to see what's hot, and what's not.


Can you re-explain what I need to do? I've already checked my entire house, aside from that fact that I'm certain, and we don't have any GFCI outlets anywhere. The only thing that's out of the ordinary when compared to all the outlets in the house is that each of the three washrooms have these:


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

If the outside outlets are connected to the breaker that think control them, the GFCI breaker takes the place of GFCI outlets.

I would say the "Razor Only" outlet is not up to code, it is not 3 wire (Ground plug missing). It could be on the GFCI breaker. If it is on, turn off the GFCI breaker and see if that breaker controls it. Down here were I live require bathrooms, outside, kitchen
outlets to be on GFCIs.

BG


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Where you live does the outlet need to be GFCI, the breaker or both?


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Either one, not both.

BG


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

So does that mean that when choosing my new outdoor outlets I don't need to opt for the GFCI ones since my breaker is GFCI?

By the way, I took your advice and turned off the GFCI breaker, then switched it back on, now the red tick has turned white on the breaker and I tested both the front and back outdoor outlets with my voltage tested and now there is current in the outlets. However, the non-contact voltage tester tells me there is current now but when I try to plug something into them, the item does not work. After plugging the item into each outlet, I tried checking the breaker to see if plugging it into the outlet may have tripped it but the white tick is still visible.

Why is this? (The good news is that that's the breaker for those outdoor outlets, as suspected.)


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## Vegassparky

You have Square D type QO breakers, which are some of the best for residential applications. The red indicator is exactly that, to show its tripped. With a GFCI breaker you do not know for sure if it tripped because of over current, or a ground fault. 

Since a connected load doesn't work, you really need a more accurate method to check those receptacles. Non contact testers are okay for quick verification, but are of no use for real troubleshooting. You need to verify the polarity, line-neutral path, and line-ground. A decent solenoid voltage/continuity tester is about $40. You can get a GFCI plug tester for about $15. The former is more versatile. 

The razor recept is obsolete. Address the outdoor recepts first.

As far as GFCI breakers, or receptacles, contractors will install the breaker(s) because it meets minimum code(providing required protection to all connected receptacles). Individual GFCI receptacles at the end use locations are more expensive to install, but offer a simpler end user experience. If it trips due to ground fault, you're right there to reset it, and the rest of the circuit shouldn't be affected.


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I would buy a Digital Volt Ohm meter (DVOM). May have lost you negative/neutral connection. Here in town I can buy the from about $7.00 and up. I have a couple of really cheap ones and they work OK

You need to check the wires, not the slot in the receptacles.

BG


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## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Like this: Newegg.com > Palm-Size Handheld Digital Multimeter - $5.99 with free shiiping

(More)


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Looks just like mine, except mine are red.

They do an OK job for a handyperson.

BG


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## SABL

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



> Individual GFCI receptacles at the end use locations are more expensive to install, but offer a simpler end user experience. If it trips due to ground fault, you're right there to reset it, and the rest of the circuit shouldn't be affected.


Downstream outlets are also protected if the circuit is branched through the GFCI receptacle. You just need to find which room the GFCI is installed in.....my house has a GFCI in the hall bath that covers the master bath. If the run had been 'pig-tailed' at the upstream receptacle I would need a GFCI at each location. 

Ditch the razor receptacle......it's not even polarized. Of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about......I don't shave. The g-daughter wanted to braid my beard the other day...:rofl:


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## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



SABL said:


> ... I don't shave. The g-daughter wanted to braid my beard the other day...:rofl:


Easier to keep:


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



> You need to verify the polarity, line-neutral path, and line-ground. A decent solenoid voltage/continuity tester is about $40. You can get a GFCI plug tester for about $15. The former is more versatile.


Can the former do everything the latter can do? If so, I'll opt
for the former solenoid voltage/continuity tester. However, I don't know how to verify "polarity, line-neutral path and line-ground." If I buy it, is it difficult to learn/use? 

I know you're probably tempted to tell me to call a licensed electrician but I'd like to learn how to fix this myself. Afterall, this is a DIY forum. With electrical work,
I feel that if I take my time and am both careful and safe in what I do, I can acheive an end result.

While you're reading thing, which receptacles and weatherproof covers should I replace the existing ones with? I can't find any provincial regulatory codes that dictate anything so if you can suggest me the best ones I'll get those ASAP since I'm planning on changing everything out regardless since both existing receptacles are rusted.

Also, if you can suggest me one of each device you recommended; the solenoid teater and the GFCI plug tester.

Edit: Sorry, missed the second page before posting.


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

In AC current, they really don't + and -, it is hot and neutral and ground. With a wire
voltage tester(DVOM) you can't tell which is which. You contact tester can.
You should have three wire , Black, White and Bare copper, The White and Bare are your Neutral and the ground. Black &White you get 120vac, Black and Bare you get 120vac.

I not totally sure what kind of meter Vegas is talking about, but think I do.

I will see what I can find here in the USA as far as recpt and weatherproof covers.

BG


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## Papanoc

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Google can be your friend. Search for youtube video on replacing receptacles and another on operating a digital multimeter. Pay close attention to the safety warnings. When you feel smart enough to give it a try make sure you are not alone. If you get shocked someone will need to get an ambulance quick. 
While replacing the receptacles you should look closely at the wiring especially broken insulation exposing naked wires in the conduit or box. If you see any of this you should get an electrician to replace the faulty wiring immediately and shut the circuit breaker off until it's done. Don't take unnecessary chances, (shut off circuit breaker until the job is complete) and don't be cheap, (replace the receptacles with good quality and waterproof covers with gaskets).


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Here you go

Outlet:

Shop Cooper Wiring Devices 15-Amp Gray Duplex Electrical Outlet at Lowes.com

Expect to pay $3.00-$5.00 each. Doesn't really matter as long it can be wired from the side. Avoid the real cheap ones.

Cover:

Shop Cooper Wiring Devices Non-Metallic Gray 2-Outlet Weatherproof Electrical Outlet Cover at Lowes.com

BG


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Basementgeek said:


> Here you go
> 
> Outlet:
> 
> Shop Cooper Wiring Devices 15-Amp Gray Duplex Electrical Outlet at Lowes.com
> 
> Expect to pay $3.00-$5.00 each. Doesn't really matter as long it can be wired from the side. Avoid the real cheap ones.
> 
> Cover:
> 
> Shop Cooper Wiring Devices Non-Metallic Gray 2-Outlet Weatherproof Electrical Outlet Cover at Lowes.com
> 
> BG


How are those outlets better than the normal ones? I don't see anything different, spec wise...

And for the weatherproof cover you linked, thats the one I have in the front of the house.. the back balcony doesn't have anything for some reason. Are those good enough? I was thinking to put the ones that are actually boxes.. but if that is good then I will keep the one in the front porch and just ad one of those to the back balcony.


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## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

A lot of the outlets are cheap. They break.

Yes, keep the front cover one as long as the gaskets are good.

BG


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## ~Mark

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

At our house (wired in 2004), outside and bathroom GFCI protection is at the outlet. Therapeutic bath air pump has its own GFCI breaker because or direct wiring. We also have *arc fault* breakers (AFCI) for bedrooms, which is a newer electrical code addition, depending on where you live. AFCI breakers also have a Test button.

I have had to replace GFCI outlets somewhat regularly, both inside (bathrooms) and outside as well ; they just don't last. Running motors like saws and pumps seems to have an impact on life expectency also.

Your GFCI breaker is likely fried, since it won't handle a load.
One needs to be fairly confident to replace a breaker though. Getting an electrician to do it might be a good idea in your case, because they could have a look at those razor outlets as well. And yeah, getting proper exterior outlet boxes is a must.

Good luck..


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Mark, the entire panel and its breakers are new as of last summer


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

guess I'll jump in here with a bit of advice.

1) you should first determine which breakers do what and where. make sure there is no breaker which is already tripped but looks on in the box if you find one and reset retest the outlets.

take a cheap radio and plug it into outlets and turn of breakers till the radio goes off. this is to eliminate breakers which run unrelated items from the outdoor outlets.

(Warning) make sure you have any computers or appliances which must be on for a task safely shut down and unplugged if needed before turning off breakers.

also you do NOT need to test your [30 plus] AMP breakers for outlets they will be for stoves/heaters/furnace/dryers..... 

2) don't assume the one breaker with a test button is the outdoor outlet breaker. if you have touched the tester to the actual wires at the outlet (side of the outlet. bronze screws should be hot [typically Black], silver is common [typically white] do not believe they were not reversed or that a red was not used for the hot always test first.)

3)the most common issue with outdoor outlets is wire degradation in and around the box (water,bugs,mice,oxidation.....) a broken wire or a loose connection in the box.

you can take the outlet from the box with some care not to touch the side screws and wires while wearing insulated boots (rubber soles [dont be kneeling down or leaning against the building]) and if you feel that's not enough. by only handling the outlet with insulated pliers while only grabbing either tine where the outlet is screwed to the box. any potential grounding will not run through you. (this is only if you feel comfortable working with potentially live wires. if you do not DON'T try and let an electrician do it.):nono:

4) once you can test the actual wires and see if the box connections are intact and the wires not rotten you can then try to determine which breaker runs the outlets again. 

depending on what you find in the breaker box or in the outlet box you may already have the answer if not. the easiest test is a screamer which would mean getting an electrician in since the tool is more expensive than a single use would justify.

PS: the test button on the breaker trips the breaker.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



> don't assume the one breaker with a test button is the outdoor outlet breaker.


please read the thread through before posting, ive already confirmed that the gfci breaker controls both outdoor receptacles... the receptacles just dont work


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> please read the thread through before posting, ive already confirmed that the gfci breaker controls both outdoor receptacles... the receptacles just dont work


yes that came while i was writing my reply but thanks.

in that case you know the wires are in fact live and only the outlets are faulty which makes this a simple :buy new outlets and install them.

if your breaker box is 4 months old your electrician did not do his job which includes bringing old fixtures up to the code at the time of updating. the bathroom,kitchen and outdoor fixtures should all be up to code and its unlikely any place in north America has not included GFI minimums.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Dragoneyes001 said:


> yes that came while i was writing my reply but thanks.





Solidify said:


> The good news is that that's the breaker for those outdoor outlets, as suspected.


^I posted that almost 24 hours ago on the first page. You were writing your reply for about 24 hours?



> in that case you know the wires are in fact live and only the outlets are faulty which makes this a simple :buy new outlets and install them.


I'm going to try to turn off the breaker for those outlets, make sure the power is off, then remove the outlets and put new outlets and see if it fixes the issue.

edit: 



> if your breaker box is 4 months old your electrician did not do his job which includes bringing old fixtures up to the code at the time of updating. the bathroom,kitchen and outdoor fixtures should all be up to code and its unlikely any place in north America has not included GFI minimums.


That's what I'd like to look into. Which is why I'm not sure if I can just replace those outdoor outlets with GFCI outlets...


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## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

It shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes to install a couple of receptacles and test.


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## ~Mark

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> Mark, the entire panel and its breakers are new as of last summer


Hmm, breaker is probably Ok then.

As mentionned above, humidity/corrosion/faulty wires at the outlet is the most likely problem. Once you have new outlets and have inspected the wiring, you'll know for sure. If there is still no current under load, then perhaps the breaker is shot ; even if it is just a year old, the circuitry inside those breakers is fragile and may have suffered from powering a bad outlet.

I had to replace the two AFCI breakers at the house within the first 2 years, at $75 a pop (US prices X 2 here in Canada). They simply failed. The second generation of these breakers are more sturdy apparently. Not to take this off topic, just to point out that specialty breakers can die quickly under certain load conditions. Come to think of it, the bath's GFCI died after 6-7 years, even though usage is very low here (this sucker is a special model worth almost $100 IIRC).

Anyway, I hope you get going with new outlets.


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

you only need 1 gfci outlet on the run/daisy chain and none if the breaker is a gfci breaker for most local codes but you need to make sure whats your local code


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



SpywareDr said:


> It shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes to install a couple of receptacles and test.


If the two normal receptacles are operating on the GFCI circuit breaker and I want to upgrade them to GFCI receptacles, do I just remove the old receptacles and install the new GFCI receptacles in the same way or is there something different that needs to be done? That's what I was hinting to...



> As mentionned above, humidity/corrosion/faulty wires at the outlet is the most likely problem. Once you have new outlets and have inspected the wiring, you'll know for sure. If there is still no current under load, then perhaps the breaker is shot


OK. So I will install the new GFCI outlets on the outside receptacles, how do inspect the wiring though? If there's no rust or corrosion on the wires I can just re-attach them to the new GFCI outlets, screw them into the wall and them turn the GFCI breaker back on?


edit:


> you only need 1 gfci outlet on the run/daisy chain and none if the breaker is a gfci breaker for most local codes but you need to make sure whats your local code


oh ok so since I have the GFCI breaker I don't need the GFCI outlet ..


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> If the two normal receptacles are operating on the GFCI circuit breaker and I want to upgrade them to GFCI receptacles, do I just remove the old receptacles and install the new GFCI receptacles in the same way or is there something different that needs to be done? That's what I was hinting to...
> 
> 
> 
> OK. So I will install the new GFCI outlets on the outside receptacles, how do inspect the wiring though? If there's no rust or corrosion on the wires I can just re-attach them to the new GFCI outlets, screw them into the wall and them turn the GFCI breaker back on?
> 
> 
> edit:
> 
> 
> oh ok so since I have the GFCI breaker I don't need the GFCI outlet ..


yeah the breaker trips easily instead. you need regular outlets and proper sealed box covers to protect from water leaking into the boxes which may be a problem with the bricks being proud of the boxes. there are other ways to seal the lids.


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## ~Mark

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I don't know the Code in your area but it's probably the same as where I live (we're in the same province). Here the electrician installed two GFCI outlets outside with a regular breaker at the main panel. At our old house, we had one GFCI outlet (outside) and the second outlet was a regular one, so they were wired accordingly (second outlet to have protection from the first). Now in your case, the electrician chose to install a GFCI breaker instead, so it must be Ok with the Code to do it like that. It makes sense, too, as the breaker protects both outlets.

So... in theory you don't need GFCI outlets, just regular ones, but they need to be weatherproofed. You can of course quickly test the circuit by *roughly* installing the new outlets and trying them out under load. You could finish up with full installation and weatherproofing later on.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



> You can of course quickly test the circuit by *roughly* installing the new outlets and trying them out under load. You could finish up with full installation and weatherproofing later on.


What do you mean when you say to roughly install them?
What do you mean when you say to try them under load?


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

connect the wires to the outlet without screwing outlet into the box carefully plug in a disposable radio or other appliance you don't care about turn on the breaker then hit the test button while the appliance is running. this should trip the breaker. if the breaker trips without even testing there is another problem with the wiring.


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## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> oh ok so since I have the GFCI breaker I don't need the GFCI outlet ..


Correct.


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## ~Mark

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Well, I like to live dangerously, so to speak, so I would just pull out the old outlets, check the wires as far as I can pull them/see them, and connect two new outlets loosely (meaning not screwed into the box) and then reset the breaker ON and try the outlets with a decent load (a ShopVac for instance). If the circuit is good, then all you need to do is finish up by properly installing the outlets into their weatherproof boxes.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

dragon i decided that I won't put GFCI outlets outside since there's already the GFCI breaker... 



> No need to have GFCI receptacle downstream from GFCI breaker. If the receptacle is exterior application it will end up not being as sensitive as breaker GFCI, so I would save my money and install the GFCI at another location instead, that way you get more safety and better use of money.


gfci breaker + gfci receptacles? - Electrical Wiring Forum - GardenWeb


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



> Well, I like to live dangerously, so to speak, so I would just pull out the old outlets, check the wires as far as I can pull them/see them, and connect two new outlets loosely (meaning not screwed into the box) and then reset the breaker ON and try the outlets with a decent load (a ShopVac for instance). If the circuit is good, then all you need to do is finish up by properly installing the outlets into their weatherproof boxes.


Perfect! Last question.. I can't find it anywhere: do you know if Quebec code requires in-use covers for outdoor outlets or can I keep the ones I have like this:


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## navyjax2

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

The receptacles are obviously rusted and corroded - at least judging by how they look on the exterior. If you have current, then you should be able to simply change them out and the new ones should work fine. Btw - and it might be obvious now - but testing those breakers trips the current and is what causes them to be dead, totally, to where your no-contact tester can't sense anything. Resetting restores the flow, as you saw. So when you go to replace the outlet, turn off that breaker. You can (and should) get away with the cheaper outlets for this job - it's already on a GFCI breaker, and besides, with it being exposed to the elements, do you really want to throw the extra money away (I've seen GFCI outlets at $20 each)? You don't need to. Just remember the bare copper wire, or green one, is your ground and goes to the bottom of the outlet - green screw. Black to gold screws, White to silver ones. Should be an easy replacement, except the wire may be stiff if they used the outdoor/exterior wire like they should've.

As for your question about the covering - if that is what you have now, that's what you have. If you were an electrician, you could get in trouble for not paying attention to that stuff, but as "Harry Homeowner", you aren't legally bound to update your home like that. It would be "grandfathered" in as pre-existing material.


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

its been a while since i was in Montreal but they did way back then so I'd say they still do now those sealed covers would be required you can also get box extenders at the local electrical supplier same plastic, looks like a square tube you screw onto the existing box which adds 1.5/2 inches of depth.


PS just looked at the pics again forget the extensions. the covers will be ok but I'd treat the mortar to seal it or the rubber seal will be useless after the first rain. a polyurethane caulk would be the best way to seal the mortar but it needs 24 hrs to dry before you put the covers on.


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## ~Mark

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

To be perfectly honest : I don't know, but I would guess yes. I would use those...

Anecdote : we have one of those huge inflatable water slides and last summer the blower quit. Turns out it was its own GFCI unit that was shot (built into the male connector). I tested by cutting the connector off and installed a regular male plug. It worked. There was a sticker on the power cord with a big warning never to use the blower without its GFCI protection. So I trotted down to my favorite electrical shop (full of home and industrial electricians) and asked if I needed extra GFCI since I already had a GFCI outlet. The supervisor (a master electrician) told me he couldn't find anything specific in the Code, but common sense said that the blower connected to a GFCI outlet was adequate protection. So I have the blower with a regular male connector now. I think the manufacturer wanted to idiot-proof the blowers by installing GFCI in-line.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Thank you for the great explanation navyjax2, helped a lot. 

I have a box of these I found in my garage, still new. If I replace the existing ones that don't work with these, is that OK. Do I need to break off that piece on the side of the receptacle?


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

no don't snap off the connector it daisy chains the two outlets together. you only remove when creating designated circuits IE one wire one circuit.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Didn't really understand why not to snap it off but I won't do it! Come to think of it, I'll just use the old receptacle as a reference.


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

there is a little piece that jumps the current between both receptacles so you only need connect one wire to either screw on each side. one black and one white.

if you snap them off you need two black and two white one on all 4 screws and each receptacle becomes a designated circuit if each set goes to its own breaker.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

ok so if I open the old receptacle and I see one black, white and ground wire, I DONT snap the connector off?


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## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

you are very unlikely to find designated circuits outside. there is only one breaker.

you should find one black one white and an exposed copper the copper should be screwed to the box and then to the green of the outlet.

but you could also find a red a white and a copper the red is the hot (usually test to be sure)


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## Old Rich

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



> rich, a tad bit expensive for something I won't be needing after I get these outlets in order. I will label the panel afterwards. Nothing is labelled now because we had a new one installed last summer and I didn't have a chance to.


I have probably used mine a hundred times to do just that


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Old Rich said:


> I have probably used mine a hundred times to do just that


I wouldn't have a use for it once everything is labelled tbh... not sure what you're using it 100 times for


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

These are the two options I have to choose from to add to my front porch:

COOPER WIRING DEVICE - WEATHER BOX | Réno-Dépôt

THOMAS & BETTS - RECEPTACLE COVER | Réno-Dépôt


----------



## Old Rich

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> I wouldn't have a use for it once everything is labelled tbh... not sure what you're using it 100 times for


I've moved 20 times . .


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Stay away from the new box, to hard to retro fit in brick work.

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Old Rich said:


> I've moved 20 times . .


There's your problem lol I aint going anywhere.. once these are lebelled, thats that.



Basementgeek said:


> Stay away from the new box, to hard to retro fit in brick work.
> 
> BG


Good point. I'll just get this one again in that case (I just don't like the way the auto-closing mechanism puts [pressure on the plug when connected):


----------



## Dragoneyes001

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

you can always snip the spring and let gravity close the flap but they will only last so long before the outdoors muck and stuff makes you need to manually close them.


----------



## Vegassparky

Solidify, did you ever check any other locations in the house to see if that GFCI breaker was feeding them also?

There are really two basic classes of residential devices. You'll have 15A rated devices, and 20A(or spec grade) devices. For outdoor receptacles, I'd install 20A devices, because of the equipment I will most likely be plugging into them. 

As far as covers, in use(bubble covers) are only required here if you have something continuously connected. Receptacles seem to have a longer service life with these covers, as the flip style can trap and hold moisture. Either should come with a gasket. If you want added protection, silicone only the top and sides, leaving the bottom open for water to weep out.

For your own safety, and since the outdoor receptacles should be in metal boxes, do not energize the circuit unless the device is mounted to the box. You can do all the testing you need without the additional hazard.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Vegas, if the only way to recognize a GFCI outlet is by looking for outlets with a test and reset button on them, then no, I dont have any in my house, I'm certain.

If when replacing the old outdoor receptacle I see that its a 15A, can I just swap it for a new 20A or not? My assumption is that 15 and 20A receptacles need different gauge wires...So, in retrospect, whatever is there now is what I'll be forced to replace it with (unless I rewire the receptacle).


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

You could use 20 amp outlets if your wire is 12 gauge wire. If not stick with 15 amp outlet.


----------



## SABL

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

You can go over on the recptacle with no problems......the 20A will have heavier contact material and better suited for an exterior application. The only thing is that a 20A appliance can be plugged in.......but in all my years I have never seen a 20A appliance in a standard residence. Even in newer houses where 20A circuits are required I have never seen a 20A receptacle installed.......except my house.....:laugh:. The only problem is I don't have any 20A appliances. The 20A circuit is required for potential combined load......there may be many appliances on the same circuit. 20A is easily identified without removing the device to read the rating by the 'T' shaped neutral slot......a 20A plug has one prong that is sideways and matches the receptacle which can take either a 15A or 20A plug.


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

It code in my area to have 12 gauge wire on 20 amp outlets. Just had house rewired to code since I tore out walls so had to have electrical 'updated to code.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

How do i know if the wire is 12 gauge?


----------



## ~Mark

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> How do i know if the wire is 12 gauge?


Not an electrician myself. I doubt you have 12 gauge wiring to those outlets, considering the house was built a while back and also because it is not common practice to install 20A/120V exterior circuits for homes.
You'd need to measure the wire diameter and compare with a chart. Or, if lucky, you'd read the wire gauge directly on the wire insulation.

It's important to note that installing a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is not a problem, regardless of wire gauge. You have to worry about a fire hazard if you put a *20A breaker* on 14 gauge (or smaller) wire. What Vegas suggested was to oversize the outlet for longevity, not oversize the breaker which would be dangerous to say the least.
If you put a 20A load on a 20A outlet wired to a 15A breaker, the breaker will simply trip, just like putting a 20A load on a 15A outlet (wired to a 15A breaker).


----------



## Greg Avakian

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Hi,
Forgive me if this is repeat info; I'm not going to slog through 4 pages. If you want to discuss anything I write, just PM me (and you have my permission to repost anything I write if you want verification.
Qualifications: I've been an electrician in Philadelphia, PA for about 25 years.
Testing:
Get a cheap voltage tester, test the wires, not the receptacle. I strongly suspect corrosion based on the condition of the receptacles and the fact that they have not been properly protected. If you are getting a 'hot' then perhaps your neutral is broken or corroded.
If one receptacle feeds the other and both have the same problem, it is probably the feed in the first receptacle. If both receptacles only have one wire coming to them, then there is a junction box somewhere.
Replacing:
The boxes are poorly installed; if the cover does not contact the brick all the way around, chaulk it.
I would absolutely replace both of the receptacles. Since they are GFCI protected by the breaker, you can install standard (non GFCI) receptacles. If you want to go an extra step, use 20 amp receptacles that are "self-grounding" which means that you can ground either the box or the receptacle and the screw connection to install the receptacle meets the U.L. specification for making a connection.
If the wire(s) are corroded, cut them back before re-connecting.
Covering:
In Philadelphia, my inspector insists on using the kind of cover you described earlier; this is the only way to safely leave something plugged in outdoors. I use one called "code keeper", but I'm sure they are all U.L. listed..:
https://www.google.com/search?q=cod...KpyASWxYH4Bg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw&biw=1242&bih=585

GFCI info from my hand-out to customers:

Please note; I do not update this document very often since the information is complete. However, the links are not under my control, so if a link doesn’t work, please let me know.
Thanks!

Basic GFCI/AFCI Information:

GFCI information: GFCI protection can prevent shocks and electrocution.
-GFCI protection is provided by GFCI receptacles or circuit breakers. GFCI receptacles can (optionally) provide protection to receptacles that are on the same circuit and come after the GFCI protected receptacle.
-GFCI circuit breakers protect the entire circuit.
-GFCI protection is required within 6’ of a water source (like in a kitchen or bathroom), 10’ of an outdoor water source (garden hose or swimming pool), or any location under ground level (like in a basement).
Where do you put G.F.I.'s?

AFCI information: AFCI protection can prevent fires by detecting conditions in the wiring that lead to fires and shock hazards. AFCI can prevent shocks and electrocution, but not as effectively as GFCI protection.
NOTE: ”Combination AFCI” protection is provided by “combination-type AFCI” circuit breakers (make sure the breakers say “Combination”). “Combination” AFCI breakers detect in-line arcs which are a common cause of electrical fires; “non-combination” AFCI breakers do not. Older AFCI circuit breakers are better than standard circuit breakers, but not as useful as “combination-type”. When I write about or talk to you about AFCI protection, I am referring to Combination-type AFCI protection.
*I do not use the old "non-combination" AFCI breakers.*
-2011 code is all new circuits must have *Combination AFCI* circuit breakers except when GFCI protection is required (kitchen/bath/basement/wet area locations). Non-combination breakers are no longer used. If a device (eg. receptacle, light, smoke detector, etc.) is added to an existing circuit, the circuit should be upgraded to AFCI protection.
-I recommend AFCI protection for older circuits and definitely for knob and tube circuits whether or not they are being worked on or added to. Feel free to ask me for my article about knob & tube wiring. 

AFCISafety.org
YouTube


----------



## Vegassparky

For residential applications, minimum wire size is determined by the breaker feeding the branch circuit. If you have a 20A breaker, you must have no smaller than 12ga branch circuit conductors. A circuit breakers primary purpose is to protect the wiring connected to it, not the end device.


----------



## Vegassparky

Solidify said:


> Vegas, if the only way to recognize a GFCI outlet is by looking for outlets with a test and reset button on them, then no, I dont have any in my house, I'm certain.
> 
> If when replacing the old outdoor receptacle I see that its a 15A, can I just swap it for a new 20A or not? My assumption is that 15 and 20A receptacles need different gauge wires...So, in retrospect, whatever is there now is what I'll be forced to replace it with (unless I rewire the receptacle).


Turn the GFCI breaker off and see if you have power in the kitchen, and bathroom(s).

You can swap a 15A receptacle to a 20A without issue. With the proper conditions met, a 15A device is allowed on a 20A residential circuit. Read SABLs logic as to why the 20A is superior, as mine is very similar.


----------



## Vegassparky

Greg Avakian said:


> Hi,
> Forgive me if this is repeat info; I'm not going to slog through 4 pages. If you want to discuss anything I write, just PM me (and you have my permission to repost anything I write if you want verification.
> Qualifications: I've been an electrician in Philadelphia, PA for about 25 years.
> Testing:
> Get a cheap voltage tester, test the wires, not the receptacle. I strongly suspect corrosion based on the condition of the receptacles and the fact that they have not been properly protected. If you are getting a 'hot' then perhaps your neutral is broken or corroded.
> If one receptacle feeds the other and both have the same problem, it is probably the feed in the first receptacle. If both receptacles only have one wire coming to them, then there is a junction box somewhere.
> Replacing:
> The boxes are poorly installed; if the cover does not contact the brick all the way around, chaulk it.
> I would absolutely replace both of the receptacles. Since they are GFCI protected by the breaker, you can install standard (non GFCI) receptacles. If you want to go an extra step, use 20 amp receptacles that are "self-grounding" which means that you can ground either the box or the receptacle and the screw connection to install the receptacle meets the U.L. specification for making a connection.
> If the wire(s) are corroded, cut them back before re-connecting.
> Covering:
> In Philadelphia, my inspector insists on using the kind of cover you described earlier; this is the only way to safely leave something plugged in outdoors. I use one called "code keeper", but I'm sure they are all U.L. listed..:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=code+keeper+red+dot&safe=off&rlz=1C1SAVU_enUS547US547&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=jfiqU676IIKpyASWxYH4Bg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw&biw=1242&bih=585
> 
> GFCI info from my hand-out to customers:
> 
> Please note; I do not update this document very often since the information is complete. However, the links are not under my control, so if a link doesn&#146;t work, please let me know.
> Thanks!
> 
> Basic GFCI/AFCI Information:
> 
> GFCI information: GFCI protection can prevent shocks and electrocution.
> -GFCI protection is provided by GFCI receptacles or circuit breakers. GFCI receptacles can (optionally) provide protection to receptacles that are on the same circuit and come after the GFCI protected receptacle.
> -GFCI circuit breakers protect the entire circuit.
> -GFCI protection is required within 6&#146; of a water source (like in a kitchen or bathroom), 10&#146; of an outdoor water source (garden hose or swimming pool), or any location under ground level (like in a basement).
> Where do you put G.F.I.'s?
> 
> AFCI information: AFCI protection can prevent fires by detecting conditions in the wiring that lead to fires and shock hazards. AFCI can prevent shocks and electrocution, but not as effectively as GFCI protection.
> NOTE: &#148;Combination AFCI&#148; protection is provided by &#147;combination-type AFCI&#148; circuit breakers (make sure the breakers say &#147;Combination&#148. &#147;Combination&#148; AFCI breakers detect in-line arcs which are a common cause of electrical fires; &#147;non-combination&#148; AFCI breakers do not. Older AFCI circuit breakers are better than standard circuit breakers, but not as useful as &#147;combination-type&#148;. When I write about or talk to you about AFCI protection, I am referring to Combination-type AFCI protection.
> *I do not use the old "non-combination" AFCI breakers.*
> -2011 code is all new circuits must have *Combination AFCI* circuit breakers except when GFCI protection is required (kitchen/bath/basement/wet area locations). Non-combination breakers are no longer used. If a device (eg. receptacle, light, smoke detector, etc.) is added to an existing circuit, the circuit should be upgraded to AFCI protection.
> -I recommend AFCI protection for older circuits and definitely for knob and tube circuits whether or not they are being worked on or added to. Feel free to ask me for my article about knob & tube wiring.
> 
> AFCISafety.org
> YouTube


Welcome Greg, 

With all due respect, this is a very simple change out, and the OP is being exposed to a lot of this information for the first time. Please read the entire thread, and address specific questions/issues to help avoid any confusion. Thanks. 

One thing I advocate against is "cheap" voltage testers when working with class 1 circuits(>50V). You're relying on that test instrument to protect your own life, so spending a little more is prudent.

Solidify, you may be able to find this particular unit at a local big box store. Its a reliable, versatile, durable piece. Beats the Ideal brand VolCon hands down.

http://products.kleintools.com/ET200.html


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I have used one of those cheap ones for years. Like any other tool you could use it wrong. Those cheap meters are fine.

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I'll err on the side of caution and buy the one Vegas linked; if there's anywhere I'd prefer "wasting" my money it's on tools that can potentially save my life.

I'll read through the last couple of posts in due time; I'm finally scheduled for my ingrown toenail surgery (nail ablation) this weekend and that's all that's on my mind.


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Your choice, however at some point in your life you will need a DVOM, if you want to be a handy person.

BG


----------



## Vegassparky

I agree a DVOM is an eventual necessity. They require a higher degree of understanding to use properly, and can be used safely by an experienced person. I will not allow a DVOM to be used as singular proof before contact by my professional crews. 1st violation is termination/no tolerance. When it comes to testing for the presence of voltage, I (and electricians in general)will use the type of tester I linked to(Klein/Wiggy/VolCon). There is no possibility to have it set errantly, which can lead to a false "cold". They often offer more than one type of instant feedback when voltage is present(light/shake/sound). Confirmation can be made without having to look at the device, keeping you focused on where your hands are. Their durability is superior to most digital meters, which relates to reliability/confidence. 

I have at least a dozen types of meters/testers. If I'm going to touch anything <600V, I use the exact same ET200 I linked to, and I trust it.


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Your money, your choice. 

BG


----------



## solow46

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I would look in a kitchen near the water faucet, bathrooms, or garage, for a ground fault outlet. It's mandated by law. It could be that one of the wires has broken off and interrupted this circuit. If you feel that this job is above your pay grade you should call an electrician.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

^if you can't be bothered to read previous posts then dont reply without suggestions that have already been mentionned


----------



## grebob

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

That breaker IS a GFI. When you press Test, it should open the circuit (removes power), because you are simulating a failure. Press the red button to RESET it (turns power back on). You may have to use a pen or other object to press the red button in far enough. You should hear or feel it click into place. Then test the outlets again. If the outlets are defective, the breaker may click off as soon as you press the red button - you should hear a second click if that happens. This means there is leakage of current somewhere - probably in one of the outlet boxes. Replace the outlets with a standard outlet available in any hardware or Wal-Mart. Be sure and turn the breaker off before changing the outlet. When all is working, make sure the cover on the outlets is waterproof. If not, the problem will just happen again.


----------



## Vegassparky

Where are you at on this now, Solidify?


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Gonna resume working on them after my surgery recovery. Keep this thread open, please.


----------



## Vegassparky

Good luck with the surgery. Get it over with, and it'll be done before you know it.


----------



## scootersid

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

How old is the house and wiring? If you have power on the black wire and it does not work yu have lost the neutral(white wire). Harbor Freight usually sell the tester for $5 or less, sometime they give them away. If yu test from the black wire to the bare(ground)wire the breaker should trip. Check between the white wire & the bare wire for continuity. The tester has a separate position for that. DO NOT CHECK FOR POWER WHEN UNIT IS ON CONTINUITY it will fry the tester. You should have continuity between the white and bare wires or the white and bare wires and another grounding source. Such as a water pipe or gas pipe. It sounds like the neutral is not connected or came loose somewhere.Does the GFCI breaker control anything else like receptacles or lights? If it does then the neutral wire could be loose in a splice somewhere. Or it could even be loose in the main breaker box. If the breaker works when you press the test and reset buttons then I would say it is OK. You can use just about any brand of receptacle. They cost less than $1 at any of the big box stores. The in use cover is more likely to be around $10. You can replace the receptacles in the bathrooms with individual an GFCI. If there is more than one set of wires in the box you will need to pigtail al the wires so that you end up with just one of each.

I will tell you that I have spent several hours trying to figure out the solution. Then I have fixed some in less than 15 minutes. Since you are going to replace the receptacles anyway that is where I would start. Shut the GFCI breaker off and check at the location and be sure you have no power. Then take out the receptacle and disconnect the wires. Then check between the black & white and the black & bare wires and then turn the breaker on and check them again. If you have power then you can go ahead and replace the receptacles. If not then you will have to figure out how the neutral was lost. The first place to start is at the breaker box. If there is any access to the wire in the attic or crawl space try to find out how it is ran from breaker box to outside boxes.

I was an electrician/electrical contractor for more than 40 years so I have seen all kinds of this type problem. In a house that was wired before 1960 there may not be a bare/green/ground wire in the system. The 3 wire configuration was started in the late 1950's and the early 1960's. It sounds to me that you did not get all you should have when you had the breaker panel replaced. Is there an inspection authority in your area? Of course if you had several bids to do the work and you took the cheapest the maybe you got what you paid for. I have lost a lot of work by some people cutting corners and not doing the work as it should have been done. Ohwell, good luck


----------



## j14152

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> Like I said, the panel hasn't been labelled to identify those outdoor receptacles so it will be near impossible to know if I've turned off the correct circuit breaker before proceding to safely dismantle the receptacle.


To clarify some of the previous posts: So much information! By now you probably have the job all finished up!

Someone pointed out that you can turn off the main breaker to your house, which will "power off" everything in the house. That's the safest way. 

You seem concerned about getting shocked. Wear thicker, dry (leather) work gloves, a layered jacket (not a windbreaker), stand on a dry piece of plywood, and tape up your screwdriver and pliers handles. Only use one hand at a time (meaning, put your other hand in your pocket). That way it would be extremely difficult to get a shock, no matter what happens with your tools. If your main breaker is off, this is unnecessary.

From your pictures, it looks as if the socket mounting screws are so badly rusted you may not be able to get them out easily. Try a vise-grip if the screw heads get stripped out. If that doesn't get the socket out of the wall, you may have to pry, cut, bend or grind the screws or mounting bracket to get the socket out of the wall. Try not to damage the box that's mounted in the wall - it could be hard to replace it.

It is not likely that both the front outside outlet and the back outside outlet are both powered by the same breaker. It's possible that the rear outlet is powered off of the bathroom GFCI, if you have one.

Don't reuse the sockets. Replace them with a better quality socket, not the cheapest. Use a weather-resistant cover over the new socket. 

Wiring the socket: Black wire to the Brass screw side, white wire to the silver screw. Bare wire to the green screw.

PS - In my house my outside outlets are powered by breakers that also power the inside outlets near the adjacent outside outlet, and they were not GFCI protected - it's an older house. My living room breaker powers my front outside wall outlet, and my family room breaker powers the back porch outlet.


----------



## Jackever

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

a few corrections and additions to various replies here starting with the first
1. Voltage sniffers, voltmeter do not detect Current they detect the potential for current flow, you can have good voltage but due to bad or intermittent connection, little or no current can flow to a load. --- no biggie ,just thought you might like to use the correct terms.

2. A shock from a 120 volt circuit will not necessarily kill you or require an ambulance. If your heart stops you will need CPR and/or defib. if you are dry you could get a strong jolt, and be OK. Been there done that. I know of some electricians that do not use a voltmeter or tester to see if a circuit is live, they just quickly touch the wire ( heavy callouses would help) to see if they feel the strong tingle. BUT if you are wet or sweaty be careful. Some of the other safety tips are good but some over the top. But a newbie cannot be too careful. Simple: everything dry and use gloves if you are afraid. ;-).:thumb:

3. If the outlet is an intermediate one in a string there will be 2 on each side (total of 4 for the circuit) and the ground ( 2 more). to connect to the next outlet in the string. 

4. The ground wire could be Green. Since you have some old 2 wire circuits it could be missing or even any color. If missing find a way to add one.(or hire an electrician).:nono:

5. Agree with most that the problem is a bad connection, you may have to look for splices, taps on knob and tube that were not done correctly, could be in your attic or crawl space.. 

6. you do not need a "Disposable radio", whats with that, you won't destroy it testing a 120 circuit. a desk or table lamp, or trouble light is just as good.

Have fun.:smile:


----------



## brainzbody

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

First, those receptacle need to be replaced with GFCU Outdoor receptacles.

How to test:
Shut off all power (throw main switch)
remove the old receptacles clean up wires and make sure they are sepparate.

turn back on main breaker
one by one turn off and back on each breaker (they can look off when on) in your pictures your GFCI break looks tripped i.e. off.

Once all breakers are on
go see if you have power to the wires (your tester is fine for this purpose)
If NO, call whomever installed your new box because they missed the wires.

When you are buying the GFCI outdoors, go look in your bathroom and kitchen and replace any that are not GFCI (while having them at the box is great the purpose of GFCI is to trip instantly at the nearest place to the problem, i.e. at the plug connected to the fan your angry wife is throwing into the bath you are relaxing in. So anywhere near water is a great idea. I do the entire kitchen with one contractor pack from Lowes/HomeDepot.)

If you have power to the wires, then shut off breaker and install your new waterproof outdoor GFCI outlets.

In one picture I saw only a two prong outlet. This is dangerous and needs to be replaced with a 3 prong.

If there is no ground wire running to that box, you can take a 4' piece of rebar and hammer it into the ground until 6" remains above ground. Get a screwed collar (metal ring with pointed screws to attach to the rebar along with an offset screw to hold the ground wire make sure the wire you use is at least 12 gauge and single strand i.e. one piece of wire) I would further use a torch and solder to make sure of that connection. Cover it with a pice of 1-2" PCV for the 6"" and a few above and pushed into the ground an inch or two then use something smaller (step down connectors) and secure it to your house. Make sure it is shielded all the way)

I suspect if you pried open that one receptacle with the spot that is broken at its ground, you would find corrosion inside that is shorting the thing out.

What I wrote above will fix your problem.

Good rule of thumb when working with electricity: Only grab ONE wire at a time. Wear rubber soled shoes that are dry and be careful not to touch anything that could ground you, like the electrical box, or your naked wife standing there dripping wet fresh from the shower. Good luck with your health. 

BTW when you get around to labeling your box,, use your computer. Draw a simple diagram of your house in a draw program Label Rooms and walls
so LR-N-1, LR-N-2 mean Living room north wall socket 1 and 2 (most likely on same circuit, but... I have seen some weirdly wired houses in my life)

Get a sheet of printer paper that has a removable back. Measure your box door. and make sure your drawing fits

The drawing shows location of you Living Room in bold right under it LR in bigger bold with each wall Marked NSEW do it for each room.

Then make labels for each breaker. Avery has sheets for both laser and ink jet.

if you use inkjet go to an art store and get a can of spray that helps preserve drawings.

This can be very valuable to both firefighters and paramedics, but will help you know which switch to throw to turn off that blaring stereo!

Takes about 15 minutes to do with two people one with tester one at the box.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok. Surgery went ok just got a week or so worth of recovery time.

Since it was pointed out that it is highly unlikely that both receptacles are on the same breaker since they're on opposite ends of the house, when I'm all healed up, that's what I'll start with verifying. Turning the gfci breaker off then back on made the back receptacle have current so I'm 100% sure it at least controls that outlet. I forgot to check the front outlet when I did that to the breaker. That's what I'll start by doing. The front receptacle still has it's cover so the receptacle is still in good shape (I.e. No rust) I don't think I'll be replacing it unless it's the source of why it's not working. I'm hoping that turning the gfci breaker off then back on made the front receptacle functional now. I'll take things from there. Once I know which breaker(s) control(s) the receptacles, it will be much easier to work on them safely since I'll know which breaker(s) to turn off.


----------



## sigman

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

You've received a lot of advice. Has anything solved your problem? The photo in your original post shows a broken outlet. The third prong is snapped. You don't have outdoor covers which is absolutely necessary. You're spending a lot of time with voltage testers.

I've attached a photo of an inexpensive polarity test which will tell you if the outlet is working and if the hot, neutral and grounds are properly connected. but if you only have a two prong plug that will have to be replaced.

If you've spent time reading all the posts to no real solution you should bite the bullet and get a licensed electrician to fix the problem. You may have to forgo several visits to the movies to make up the difference


----------



## Greg Avakian

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Hi,
I won't repeat myself, because my last post covered the important details, but I will add this:
I want to point out that there is *no red button* on your GFCI circuit breaker. A few posters have referenced that, so let's be clear:
There is a *Yellow* test button. Once you press it, a red (orange usually) "flag" shows you that the breaker is tripped (if it doesn't trip, you should have the circuit breaker replaced). Although some posters have thought otherwise, it is *not* a reset button. That orange/red indicator is behind a little plastic "window", so you can't touch it anyway. ;-) There is *no* reset button on that breaker. You reset it by turning the breaker fully off and then fully on.
You have probably figured this out by now, but I thought I should mention it in case you found that confusing.
Well, I lied; I'll repeat one thing:
A few people have suggested using a "standard" receptacle. As a professional electrician, I disagree.
If, after testing, your circuit in indeed grounded, get 20 amp self-grounding receptacles. Unless you are plugging in heavy-duty items and using them a lot, I would opt for #2 on this page ($3.29); if you think you need the seriously rugged stuff, spend the money and get #4 ($19.87):
Search Results for 20 amp receptacle at The Home Depot

It doesn't matter if your wiring is #14 (15amp wiring) or #12 (20 amp wiring), for a measly $3.29 each you might as well get something that is better than a standard receptacle.
(By the way, the indication that it is a 20 amp receptacle is the horizontal slot on the neutral side of the receptacle).

Best of luck to you!


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Thanks greg, ill post back how many amps the old receptacle is when i remove it. And yes the breakers red flag appears when i test it so its working well.


----------



## Garyaero

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

First off that receptacle needs replaced. If your not comfortable with power on flip the breaker off. If replacing it does not work go to Lowes, Home Depot or local hardware and get Receptacle Tester it plugs in and has three lights 2 amber 1 red and a little chart showing whats wrong depending on what lights lite up. this little $5 tester has saved me countless troubleshooting time. I was an electrician but am retired now.Good luck


----------



## ~Mark

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Glad to hear the surgery went well, Solidify. Enjoy the time off 

You mentionned that many here hinted that both outdoor boxes might be wired to different circuits. I don't think so, myself. The electrician who installed that GFCI breaker would have covered both outside circuits ; one breaker > both boxes, no matter how far apart they are physically. If he left one circuit unprotected without explaining himself, then he probably needs to be told to smarten up (and protect your other circuit free of charge...).

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Iceberg86300

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

You have a couple electricians responding to you, so I'll keep this short and sweet. 

You don't have very much knowledge here on the subject. (Neither do I, for AC stuff anyway, but I can rock DC stuff for my microcontroller's and embedded projects, as well as RC heli's)

I've been knocked on my *** before, and so has my dad who has considerable experience. We obviously aren't dead, but I can tell you that crap is no fun! Unless you like not being able to feel your arm for the rest of the day. 

Anyway, you mentioned an electrician and the panel is only ~5 months old? I'm going to assume a permit wasn't pulled because you are dealing with this crap. Pretty sure an wouldn't have approved those outlets, but maybe you there was a permit for just a new panel? 

Regardless, the guy didn't do his job, I know it's a huge pain and probably won't happen unless a permit was pulled, but get that guy back at your house to fix everything. Even if it was just a panel, every box should have been checked. 

I really can't believe only a couple people even mentioned the idea that this should be done by an electrician. This seems like a simple job, but it could explode on you. I'm not putting you down, but what you have said, combined with what others have recommended, scares me! Learning this stuff a post at a time on the Internet is I in no way safe. If you choose to proceed, you might want to get a quote from an electrician anyway. May be surprised and not cost much at all. I'd definitely go after the first guy though. 

If you want to do it yourself please be careful. Don't work on anything without shutting the power off. The voltage tester is just fine, you're not an electrician, so why bother with an expensive tool that is meant for use everyday and expected to last basically forever.

Pick up a voltmeter, don't need an expensive one. Without the pro level voltage tester you can buy a halfway decent DMM. Halfway decent just means some extra features. If you're not a pro you don't need $300 Fluke. Sears/HD/Radio shack/whatever is similar in Canada, should have an auto ranging meter for 30-40 bucks. Anything more expensive than that but does not have calibration ability is worthless. 

You can use these in hobby, checking battery voltage, checking stuff in your car, whatever. Just make sure it can handle AC and DC voltage, and has a continuity test/resistance test. (Usually if it has one it will have the other).

I'd take Greg's advice/help, and make sure whatever is suggested meets code where you live. 

Good luck.


----------



## Iceberg86300

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



~Mark said:


> Glad to hear the surgery went well, Solidify. Enjoy the time off
> 
> You mentionned that many here hinted that both outdoor boxes might be wired to different circuits. I don't think so, myself. The electrician who installed that GFCI breaker would have covered both outside circuits ; one breaker > both boxes, no matter how far apart they are physically. If he left one circuit unprotected without explaining himself, then he probably needs to be told to smarten up (and protect your other circuit free of charge...).
> 
> Let us know how it goes.


Couldn't find a like button on this forum, so I'll just say I agree. Like in my last post, I'd be getting that guy back out to place ASAP. If he won't, that's a giant red flag and you should attach it to him in any way possible. Oh, was the old panel marked for circuit lovations? Of assume so because he put in that GFI breaker. On my tablet so can't see the pics right now but are there any more GFI breakers? As others mentioned you should have GFI protection inside, at the very least in any bathrooms. As one GFI outlet or breaker can protect multiple outlets I'd be checking wiring, even with no GFI I'd be checking wiring. My dad has seen some pretty shady stuff such as a bunch of Commons wired together, and if any one has a bad connection things can turn into a nightmare. He loved in a house where if you turned off one light another light would come on in the other side of the house. Not good. Lol. 

Can't remember ask the posts, but simply plugging something into those outlets trips the breaker? A night light (or radio) should nottrip a 15 amp breaker. If this is the case then I'd have to agree with Greg that there is a bad connection. Where is the question. If you shut the mains off, and follow hisadvice of cutting the wires back at least you'll know those aren't the problem if the problem still exists. with the panel being new the connections at the panel could be bad. As for protection from more shady stuff, don't blindly trust the color code. Check them yourself to make sure. Some idiot could have cared less about standards, or even worse, connections in aj box could have been weird differently so commenting could hold most places, but not all. 

Again, I'd get the original electrician out there to fix his work. Even if you weren't paying for a big overhaul I have to believe the guy looked at your outlets, and because the exterior sockets obviously show damage this should have been brought to your attention as it's definitely not safe. Although I believe he should take care of this for you, if you know for a fact that he did a cursory inspection I don't think I'd let him touch anything. One glance at the socket without a plate or cover and the obvious "black hole" in the brick should have been enough for the guy to bring it up at the very least. 

Again, good luck, and stay safe! Like I said before 110 likely won't kill you, but it is not fun! Especially when it only takes 30 seconds to flip the mains. 

Steve


----------



## Jackever

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

On the recommendation to use a 4' piece of re-bar for a ground rod,:nonono: that would probably not meet Code. It could corrode and become ineffective. Codes require a copper clad rod I believe and 8 ft length. the REBAR will work short term, but may cause the GFI to trip after a few years and you would not be protected.

Running it to a metal water pipe would be acceptable, making sure it is metal (preferably copper) all the way out to the water meter. Clamps to use on pipe or the rod are available in any electrical section of a hardware store or big building supply store.

Or run to your main ground rod for the breaker panel or into the breaker panel.

Just replacing the bathroom outlet with a 3 prong type will not offer the protection, a ground wire must be added.
Jack
PS reminds me I need to put better grounds on some of my outlets :wink:


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Seems like I have a lot to do since I only have one GFCI breaker protecting two exterior outlets. I have two kitchens and 3 bathrooms thst need to have GFCI receptacles added. What else did you guys say needs to have GFCI protection? There was a guy earlier from Quebec also; not sure if he could find the regulations for our area since I'm having a hard tome. The electrician that did our panel is now retired. I want to bring this whole home up to code.


----------



## Vegassparky

Before everyone piles on the electrician, it seems he's done a panel change. The scope of that work is limited to changing out that panel, and typically does not including bringing the rest of the building up to code. 

Once again, this is a simple receptacle change out once an accurate assessment of the field conditions have been made.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> Seems like I have a lot to do since I only have one GFCI breaker protecting two exterior outlets. I have two kitchens and 3 bathrooms thst need to have GFCI receptacles added. What else did you guys say needs to have GFCI protection? There was a guy earlier from Quebec also; not sure if he could find the regulations for our area since I'm having a hard tome. The electrician that did our panel is now retired. I want to bring this whole home up to code.


There should be GFCI outlets or GFCI protected circuits anywhere there is water or outdoors. Bathroom, kitchen, laundry. If you can get the first outlet in a string of them on one circuit then replace the first and then wire the rest on the protected side of the GFCI outlet.

The new code for new construction in the US is arc fault circuit beakers. A bit overkill IMHO.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Yes thats why i dont agree with someone else saying everything else is my electricians fault


----------



## scootersid

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

GFCI are required for outside, bathrooms, kitchen counter and garage outlets. If they are accessible without moving appliances, like the refrigerator. I still say that if you show power on the black wire and the outlet does not work then you have no neutral. A GFCI outlet can replace a 2 prong ungrounded outlet as long as it and any loads downstream are clearly and permanently marked as such. The GFCI does not check the ground wire. It checks the difference of the voltage between the white wire(neutral) and the black
wire(power). 

When I wired a house I would make a label on a 11"x14" sheet of paper and use some spray on adhesive to glue it to the inside of panel door.
When you hire someone to change out the panel he is not required to bring up the rest of house to current code. What I did was to do a survey of the house to see what was needed and then give the owner a price and they could fix what they wanted to. If it was a dangerous situation I would tell them it should be fixed.

The 2 prong outlets do not have to be changed unless they are damaged. If they are to be replaced you have to replace them with another 2 prong outlet or with a GFCI(clearly marked) or with a grounded outlet after installing a ground wire to the box. 

There is nothing wrong with the inexpensive receptacles. I have installed thousands of them that are still working 40 years later. 
Some of the big box stores sell a small code book for residential use only and also Lowe's has a good self help book that is easy to comprehend. 

I would say it is most likely that the two outside outlets are on the GFCI breaker by their selves. What kind of panel did you replace? Did the old panel have a GFCI breaker? When and who wired the outside outlets originally?

I am not sure what code is being used in Canada at this time. All I have wrote is based on the NEC here in the US.
More later have to go.


----------



## Vegassparky

As far as the two prong outlets. If no ground wire is available, the receptacle may be replaced with a GFCI receptacle per NEC. The rule applies to any receptacle, regardless of location. The logic is that because the device opens the circuit when it detects an imbalance between line-neutral. If no ground wire is present, and an imbalance occurs, its assumed the current is going through another ground path, and the device opens the circuit.


----------



## Iceberg86300

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> Seems like I have a lot to do since I only have one GFCI breaker protecting two exterior outlets. I have two kitchens and 3 bathrooms thst need to have GFCI receptacles added. What else did you guys say needs to have GFCI protection? There was a guy earlier from Quebec also; not sure if he could find the regulations for our area since I'm having a hard tome. The electrician that did our panel is now retired. I want to bring this whole home up to code.


Be careful what you wish for . That could take a complete rewire. Doing the entire house would absolutely need a permit pulled, for your protection/protection of your house/valuables/LIFE. Permit needs an electrician. With no permit comes no inspection. If you're just replacing a couple sockets this isn't a big deal. But with major work you would own the liability, and it adds nothing to the value of the house of you were ever to sell. (Unless you burn the buyers):4-thatsba

Of the wiring is OK then replacing all the sockets, adding a few GFI chains, maybe some j boxes of someone added stuff incorrectly shouldn't be too expensive. But with electrical the simplest jobs can explode on you because everything is hidden. 

If you can brush up on the code (sorry I can't help you there), and then cut power and examine the stuff yourself before you bring in an electrician you'll be much better prepared to call BS on anyone that's trying to fleece you. Building codes can usually be found at the local library, or you might have to head to a larger one. You can also call whoever you w would pull a permit from and ask where the building codes can be accessed. 

If I was you, I'd start there.


----------



## ~Mark

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Hi Solidify,

Guy from Quebec here.

I don't have a copy of the Code, but even if had, I would advise you not to trust ME because I may read things wrong and give you bad (dangerous) advice. Since I am no electrician either, I would suggest you visit your nearest electrical shop and simply ask what you need to have in the house.
As far as installing more GFCI breakers go, I don't think *you have to* ; my take on the situation is that newer Code additions only apply to new constructions and/or major re-wirings. Our house was built in 2004 and the Code back then did not include GFCI for kitchens and basement bedrooms, but it does now. I don't have to install them (pretty sure of that). Back in 2004, the Code had just been updated for arc fault protection (AFCI breakers) for bedrooms so we have those.
So in your case, you can ask an electrician about specifics for your house ; I'm guessing they would strongly suggest (perhaps you would be required) to replace the bathroom razor outlets in favor of GFCI outlets (or GFCI breakers for those circuits).

Once you know if the Code forces you to upgrade certain circuits (or not), then you could plan ahead for those and perhaps add optional upgrades that would make the wiring safer.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Here is an excellent source for electrical code questions and subjects.

Mike Holt's Forum


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Solid advice Mark, will do. I think someome mentionned it a while
BACK AS MY House being 'grandfathered' under the new law.


----------



## Iceberg86300

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

You're pretty much always grandfathered in. I don't know of any code that forces one to upgrade anything in an old house. But as mentioned, when you open the can, any new construction must meet the current code. 

And just to be clear, I am not blaming your electrician for not fixing the outside stuff. But in the name of safety, and just plain good business practices, I would think a quick walk walk around would be done, at which point you should have been made aware of the situation outside. 

For the electricians: when replacing or upgrading a new panel do you just rip the old out and install new? I would think for your own safety you would take a look around first. But I'm not an electrician, so don't know the workflow.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

No you just change the panel when doing a retrofit or repair. If the grounding is sub par you would address that issue.


----------



## MPR

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I haven't really been following this thread and this may have already been said but if you, and/or an electrician, are in doubt about an outside receptacle I'd just cap it off. If you need a receptacle in the area a new line can be run.

I did building construction and apartment maintenance for a couple of decades on and off while I was a "starving student." Many of the apartments I managed were converted houses that were originally built before there even _was_ residential electricity. Over the years, wiring of several types was added and who knows if any was actually to code (not to mention that the code is constantly changing too). I've run new wiring more than once instead of trying to figure out the mess that was currently there.

Also, I've learned to assume that everything is "hot" unless I personally determine otherwise and to always lock out the power, even by by removing a meter if I have to.

I've received a couple of bad shocks in old apartments, even when following safety precautions.

Once when I both flipped a switch and turned off the breaker to a room with two ceiling lights and tested both to determine they were "cold," I got a shock in the middle of the job when the tenant in the next apartment flipped on their lights. It seems that the apartments had been made by just throwing up a wall, which separated two lights that had been on a single switch in the original room.

Another time I posted a notice that the power would be off for ten minutes at a certain time and also posted another notice on the breaker box and locked the box, only to have a tenant user her nail file to open the locked box and turn the power back on because she wanted to dry her hair.


----------



## Vegassparky

A quick look around is usually done for a panel change, but isn't a necessity unless a lot of issues are discovered in the panel. For instance, multiple wires on a single breaker, or splices in the panel require further investigation. Additional breakers may be needed to correct the issue. 

There are instances where mandatory compliance is required when a device change out is due. Typically its because of GFCI or AFCI requirements. 

In the OPs situation, GFCI protection is all that's required for these outdoor devices, either with a GFCI breaker, or appropriate receptacles.


----------



## Iceberg86300

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Gotcha, so if you see some shady stuff when doing the panel then you'd definitely inspect the rest of the electrical. I really thought a quick walk through would always be performed looking for burned outlets and the like. But thinking about it more, if the panel is just being replaced or upgraded and had nothing to do with fixing an issue then it's pretty much up to the owner to point that stuff out unless whatever is behind the panel is bad. That might lead to something the owner never even knew about. 

Don't want to Jack the OP thread, but just a quick question. Buddy's condo is circa late 60s early 70s. Tri level, and it looks like they built them as cheaply as possible. Had electrical coming into the garage, and I lost it from there to the panel on the second floor. There is no 220 available, but he has a compressor that runs off that voltage. Would this be a simple job of putting in a main panel in the garage to run some 220 sockets, then break off of that with original wiring up to what would become the sub panel? This is assuming there is 220 available at the feed. If not, I don't even know if the electric company could make it available. A new compressor is probably the best option, but it was his dad's so he'd like to use it. 

An example of cheap: each building of 4 units only has 2 water feeds, and I believe the cold water is shared. Regardless, if there is an issue 2 units need to lose water for repairs. 

Steve


----------



## electroken

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I first got my masters license in 1969 in order to be able to rewire my own house and install a new service. I could do so since I held an electrical engineering degree.
I learned all my really necessary experience from being on the job from very experienced electricians who made me their apprentice until I knew enough to be trusted. I dont recommend learning everything the hard way.

I have read the entire post up to now and concur with the electrical contractor and other electricians making comments here before me.

You have a gfi breaker in your panel controlling the two outside receptacles and that is always ok. You will accomplish nothing (and maybe cause other issues) by replacing those outside receptacles with gfi receptacles. The advice to correct the installation at the outside outlet was very good advice. Here in the usa it is required in most localities to install in use covers. It is also necessary to have outside receptacles on your home no matter when the house was built or the service put in it. This is found by many at the time when they go to sell the house and learn what needs to be done to satisfy the local codes and NEC. (National Electrical Code)
All homes here are required to have either gfi protected circuits or gfi receptacles at each outlet in a bathroom or garage. Also any outlet in a kitchen (if being done new or remodel) and at least gfi for any outlet within 6' of a grounded surface such as a sink. This includes outlets for the laundry as of the last code change and update of the municipal building codes.
It is wise to at least consult an expert you may contact at one of the big box stores or local hardware store if they are aware of the codes. Most will not advise you incorrectly. 
Most of the corrections I do for sellers who must meet code after having a truth in housing inspection will have me correct the obviously dangerous things. Some code insufficiencies do not require correction if they are not dangerous. I note many times that the inspection does not uncover what I know are violations. If I am called to inspect for the home buyer I will make sure he knows to ask to have them corrected.
It is the job of the electrical inspector to have any violations he finds corrected before passing the inspection.
I can assure you that when the panel was installed, it should have required a permit and a subsequent inspection by an electrical inspector.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I'll say that when I replaced my 60 amp 4 fuse 1950s original circuit protection with a 100A CB panel I had to upgrade the wiring from the transformer to the meter, a new meter socket and a new panel with 100A breaker.


----------



## Greg Avakian

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> Seems like I have a lot to do since I only have one GFCI breaker protecting two exterior outlets. I have two kitchens and 3 bathrooms thst need to have GFCI receptacles added. What else did you guys say needs to have GFCI protection? There was a guy earlier from Quebec also; not sure if he could find the regulations for our area since I'm having a hard tome. The electrician that did our panel is now retired. I want to bring this whole home up to code.


Canadian Requirements for GFCI Installation | eHow

---
I'll add that I also suspect that both of your external receptacles are on the same line. As I said before, I suspect you have a poor neutral connection somewhere; if one of the locations has one wire and the other location has two wires than it is likely that the two wire location feeds the single wire location. If the each have one wire, it is likely that there is a junction box somewhere (note: it is possible that there is a junction box regardless).

After 5 pages of speculations, I'd say that there is nothing much more to say until you test the wires for voltage. 

Someone mentioned getting a plug-in tester for $5 or so. great idea; BUT for about $10 you get get the same thing with a test button for GFCIs!  Great way to test your GFCI breaker.

You mentioned posting after discovering what amperage the receptacles are. From viewing the picture, I can tell you that they are 15 amp receptacles, but that doesn't matter. Spend the $3-4 each for the 20amp receptacles that I posted above. And definitely get the bubble covers that I posted a link to in my first post.

Let us know what happens after you have the receptacles out and the voltage tested.


----------



## SABL

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Just because the outlets are on opposite sides of the structure does not mean they are not protected by the same breaker. I had the same situation when I renovated an 80 yr old house and added exterior receptacles at the front and rear.......and protected 2 full baths (one on each floor). A strategically placed junction box in the basement covered everything. I could have used 1 GFCI breaker or 3 GFCI outlets (baths were 'stacked' and could have been branched).......I did it all with 1 breaker.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok so i can walk now so i used the non contact voltage tester on both outdoor receptacles and it lights up to show theres current but then i tried my electricalower on them
And it doesnt work on either of them. Forgot to verify if theyre on the same circuit breaker shucks but ill
Do that when i get another moment.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

It's not current you are testing for. It is voltage. Current, or the flow of electricity and measured in amps, is what is NOT happening.

You need a plug in outlet tester. It will tell you what is not right.

Here's one for testing GFCI outlets, it basically shorts it out to trip the GFCI.










Here's one that just tells you if the wring is good.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

But its not a gfci outlet, its a regular outlet on a gfci circuit
Breaker


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

It will still test the circuit and the breaker.

It will show you if the hot is good, if the neutral is good, if the ground is good, if the polarity is correct. And the GFCI tester will see if it can pop the GFCI protection, the breaker for this matter.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok lets say I get the one that tests the GFCI outlets, if there is a wiring issue in the outlet with the hot, neutral or ground, it will indicate so on the device's lights? And then what? I'd still need to turn off the breaker and pull out the receptacle to fix it right?


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Yes. Why haven't you already done that?


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Nope not yet. I just wanna make sure I know what I'm doing/what I'm looking for once I pull the receptacle out of the junction box to examine...


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok im here in fromt of the outlet on my phone. The breaker is off and theres no voltage. THE recwptacle is pulled out of the junction box. I see a lot
Of corossion (green stuff) on the exposed ground wire. The recep is pretty rusted also. Not sure where to go from
Here.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

It has gotten wet that is why the corrosion. 

You either need a voltmeter or the outlet checker to determine if the neutral is good.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Well i dont have either atm so i just try replacing the receptacle and see if that works


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok replacing the receptacle did nothing. I flipped the breaker back on and its the same result: the non contact voltage tester tells me theres voltage but nothing works when i plug it into the outlet. 

So im going to get that gfci plug in tester. Can you suggest a good one? Lets say that teater lights up to say that theres an issue on the ground connection, what then? Is it something in the wall with the wiring thats bad? Because its the same story with the other outlet on the fromt porch


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> Ok replacing the receptacle did nothing. I flipped the breaker back on and its the same result: the non contact voltage tester tells me theres voltage but nothing works when i plug it into the outlet.
> 
> So im going to get that gfci plug in tester. Can you suggest a good one? Lets say that teater lights up to say that theres an issue on the ground connection, what then? Is it something in the wall with the wiring thats bad? Because its the same story with the other outlet on the fromt porch



It would not be the ground connector unless the outlet was so damaged it was shorting internally. And if this was the case the CB would be tripping out immediately.

More than likely the neutral is open. Somewhere the circuit is split and in that junction box I would be is the problem. It could be local to the outlet you are working on but then it would be in the wring back to the junction box.

Both of those outlet testers I pictured above are at WalMart. But they all basically do the same thing if no WalMart around you.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

What do u mean when u say the neutral may be open?


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Open neutral means the wire is broke or somehow not completely connected.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok so if the gfci plug in tester tells me thats the issue, how do i resolve it without knowing where its open on the circuit?


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Well that's the hard part. You have to start looking all along the circuit and probably replace some wire. It could be a bad wire nut splice at the junction where they split between outlets. Or the wire could be cut or burnt too.

I would call an electrician because frankly you don't seem to have the knowledge to do electrical wiring.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Yeah sounds good. So in that case i wont get the gfi tester.
Thanks


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Could be that the wires are just corroded is all. 

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Wouldn't there not be any voltage if that's the case? I'd hate to spend on an electrician if that's the issue.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Voltage is akin to pressure. So it "pushes " down the wire. The neutral is what the voltage needs to return through. So there could be corrosion that stops the voltage from returning.

What kind of a voltage checker do you have? The cheap ones are not as good at sensing 120v vs any voltage. You may not have 120V at the outlet but say 50v or so.

Without a voltmeter you are really just "in the dark". You can get a multimeter for around $10 or so.


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Multimeter is the same as a voltmeter also.

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I have a klein non contactvoltage tester


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

That only tests the hot side. You have to have a tester that has two leads like a
digital volt ohm meter to check it out.

BG


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Making it harder than it is here just replace the outlet plug something in if works then it was just a bad outlet. If doesn't then its in the wiring.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Oscer i said i already replaced the outlet and didnt fix it. Im trying to figure out what exactly is wrong with the wiring


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Btw im at the store now abt to get a multimeter, whats the diff between a auto ranging digital multimeter and a manual
DIGital multimeter? Theres 10$ diff which do i get. They dont have plug in tester here though


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Sorry must of missed that then leaves wiring.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Np oscer. Ppl were saying multimeters should do the trick so i got this auto ranging digital multimeter by mastercraft. Was on sale
AT 24.99 from 59.99$


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

That should work fine.

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok now how do i use this multimeter/what do i do with it? Lol!


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Set the meter to AC put red lead in hot side of outlet black on neutral side do you get a reading? Make sure breaker is on. If no reading put black lead in the ground in outlet. Should be same as when black lead in neutral.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

And beware the volts will show up if the leads are crossed and you are checking at the 120v and neutral slots. So don't assume one side is hot and the other isn't. The larger blade opening should be the neutral side. The narrower the 120v side and the ground is the ground

Technically the ground and neutral should be the same back at the panel as they both usually are bonded to the back of the metal breaker box. But again this is not always the case.

To be sure of the side with the 120v use your sniffer or the voltmeter. With the voltmeter put it on one side and the other in the ground pin. The neutral should show no voltage when checked to ground, the hot 120v will.


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Check all three wires with your non contact voltage tester.

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

OK. Forgot to pick up the multimeter batteries so I'll look into that tomorrow.

In the meantime, this is the outlet I removed to put the new one (as you can see, the old one was rusted to hell and the ground hole was broken), so even if it's not the outlet that's the culprit, it needed to be replaced, so I figured I'd be doing a solid.


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Your outlet could have been rusted inside. The contacts are just plated steel. Hope your cleaned the wires before attaching. They should be a bright cooper color.

BG


----------



## Vegassparky

Did either receptacle have more than one pair of wires in the box? 

Since you have a GFCI breaker checking hot to ground should trip it. 

GFCI/AFCI breakers have a neutral pigtail on them that connects to the neutral bus in the panel. The neutral from the field wiring connects to a terminal on the breaker. That's a likely spot for the open neutral conductor.

At least they didn't put Spongebob bandaids on your toes. LOL


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Basementgeek said:


> Hope your cleaned the wires before attaching. They should be a bright cooper color.
> 
> BG


:facepalm: Didn't know how to clean a wire...



> Did either receptacle have more than one pair of wires in the box?


I didn't remove the receptacle from the junction box for the outlet that's on the front porch; this is pertaining to the one in the back balcony. So I can only speak for this one when I say that there was only one white wire, one black wire and a ground wire.



> GFCI/AFCI breakers have a neutral pigtail on them that connects to the neutral bus in the panel. The neutral from the field wiring connects to a terminal on the breaker. That's a likely spot for the open neutral conductor.


I know exactly what you're talking about since I watched a video about that.












> At least they didn't put Spongebob bandaids on your toes. LOL


LMAO dammit, forgot to crop that :facepalm: :grin:


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Use a piece of emery cloth or sand paper to remove any corrosion.

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Oh ok just like plumbing, neat


----------



## Bluesman280

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I recommend that first you get a decent Receptacle Tester like this one: 

GE 3-Wire Receptacle Tester 50542 - Voltage Testers - Amazon.com 

Available at most hardware stores. It will show you if there voltage/no voltage on the hot leg (black), reversed polarity, bad ground, bad neutral, whatever. They are about 7 bux everywhere.

NEXT, grab a BREAKER FINDER gizmo. >>> 

Klein Tools ET300 Digital Circuit Breaker Finder - - Amazon.com

Plug the transmitter into the receptacle of your choice and THIS little puppy sends a signal from the receptacle TO the breaker box and the sensor then can tell you which breaker is actually feeding that plug. If any.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS...... (you can do this trick either with an extension cord or a single piece of wire of ANY size. 18ga primary wire for a car, 22ga thermostat wire, bell wire. ANYthing will do.)

I recommend you throw the MAIN breaker to kill ALL power on the house. JUST TO BE SAFE!!

simply lay a wire on the floor from the breaker panel to the receptacle in question. Remove the receptacle and disconnect all wires from it. Connect the end of your "lay" wire to - let's say, the BLACK wire for the receptacle. Now go to your panel box. With an alligator clip, attach one lead from your ohmmeter or continuity tester to the lay wire. The other probe lead from the meter is used to check EVERY black wire in the panel box until you get continuity. THIS, then is the wire that goes to your bad plug. If you test ALL of the black wires and do NOT get continuity on ANY of them, well, there's your problem, probably. But not 100% certain. More on that later.

If you DO get continuity.....
Track the black until you can identify also the White (Neutral) and Bare (Ground) wires that belong with that black. Now disconnect the White and Bare from where ever they are connected. Go back to the receptacle and move the lay wire to the white. Go to the panel box, test the white for continuity. If good, repeat for the bare wire.

If you have now made certain that all three wires have continuity, your problem is likely solved. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BUT<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

We must not forget that not EVERY wire is a "Home Run" wire. Meaning that it goes directly to the panel box. MOST LIKELY, the feed for this receptacle is splitting off somewhere, most likely in the attic. This is where it gets rough. Crawling around in the attic. But, get yourself up there, close to where the suspect receptacle is and look for junction boxes. Check the connections, look for burned or broken wires, etc. CAREFULLY if you still have power applied to the house. Again, I prefer to kill everything and work with a flashlight in these instances.

There are often more than one branch-off point where you could be losing the power to the outlet, and only patience and perseverance will solve it. 

Good luck.
And remember....
We're all behind you on this one.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

OK Bleusman, sound advice.

I did some early bird shopping and may have broke the bank but atleast it'll save me some money on some work I have to do in the near future. Let's get to it! 

(P.S.: The GFCI conversion kit is because I'm going to replace those 3 old washroom razor only outlets.)


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Suggest that you start a new topic when you get ready to do bathroom outlets.

The meter and plug in tester should be what you need.

BG


----------



## Jackever

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

A multimeter is not the same as a Voltmeter.
A multimeter can perform other measurements including Voltage measurements.
A voltmeter can only measure voltage.... just being precise here.
Remember also that a voltage indication regardless of whether from a non contact device or a Multimeter on voltage function, does not guarantee the circuit will delivery enough current to be functional.
:banghead::banghead:
I agree with others that the problem appears to be a very bad connection somewhere between the breaker box and the outlet. see the other postings by me and others.opcorn:


----------



## scootersid

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

The white wire is called the neutral or the return path to power source. Some place the white wire has come apart somewhere. It may be the outlet on the front porch or could be in the breaker panel or in a junction box in the attic, crawl, basement or even hidden in the wall or ceiling somewhere. This last one is a code violation! You either find the break and fix it or run a new wire. I would say to check the front outlet as that would be the most likely place. 

For less than a $100 a good electrician would have it fixed by now. How much will you end of spending?

Check the front outlet and the breaker panel and I bet you find the problem!


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I was going to use my new gfci plug in tester to determine if what you're saying about the neutral wire is accurate but there was something wrong with the new outlet I installed there and the tester didnt want to go in the prongs and by mistake I overforced it and now I need to return the tester because the ground prong got rammed inside the tester and can't give me a proper reading.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

How much did you spend on the outlet? Beware the $.59 outlet. Much better idea to spend the $3.00 on a high quality 20a one.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I used these outlets. Can't remember price.


----------



## SABL

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Go to square 1 and check the connections in the main breaker panel.......if you haven't already done so. Make sure the the GFCI is wired exactly as the diagram you posted. The breaker will reset as long as the coiled neutral is lugged into the buss.......if the neutral for the circuit is not wired as shown you have no viable circuit. The breaker will trip unless it gets feedback through the neutral.

Check the neutral wire that is connected via wirenut.......the electrician may have missed it. Make sure the source is is working before tearing into the rest of the circuit.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

There is one breaker. The other outlet works. Unless both neutrals come from the breaker individually then the problem is between the non working outlet and where the neutral branches off.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

SABL, I don't feel comfortable working on the panel. But like I said in previous posts, the GFCI breaker is working; I've tested it and the orange-red indicator comes on and when I turn it off then back on there is voltage in the outlets, but no current. If the problem lies somewhere in the panel or the wall, I'll have no choice to call an electrician. I was hoping it would be somewhere in the receptacle box but that is quickly proving to not be the case.

Red Raspberry, yes there is one breaker but neither outlet works; they both have the same result: they show voltage but nothing works when I plug a device into them.


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

If the plug in tester shows open neutral or open ground and wires are clean, call your electrician.

BG


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> SABL, I don't feel comfortable working on the panel. But like I said in previous posts, the GFCI breaker is working; I've tested it and the orange-red indicator comes on and when I turn it off then back on there is voltage in the outlets, but no current. If the problem lies somewhere in the panel or the wall, I'll have no choice to call an electrician. I was hoping it would be somewhere in the receptacle box but that is quickly proving to not be the case.
> 
> Red Raspberry, yes there is one breaker but neither outlet works; they both have the same result: they show voltage but nothing works when I plug a device into them.


It could be the spice of the neutral at the breaker then. Have you checked that out with the main breaker shut off? It is just a wire nut right?


----------



## SABL

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Can't blame you for not wanting to get into the main panel........very intimidating at first but you learn what you can touch and what you can't. 

As I stated earlier......if the coiled neutral is connected to the buss the breaker will reset. This will show voltage potential at the device but is not an indicator of a completed circuit.......I suspect the neutral was missed when the panel was replaced. If the neutral for the circuit was lugged into the buss the circuit would trip as soon as you attempt to use it......the circuit neutral must be tied into the breaker to monitor voltage loss.

Have an electrician inspect the connections inside the main panel.......then go from there.

**Scariest thing I've done was cut the triplex (overhead line) coming into my house while it was hot. The power company said it would be weeks to get power back once they shut it off at the pole. I consulted friends (professionals) and was instructed on what to do........but chickened out when it came time to reconnect. I cut the line but had a friend hook it back up after I replaced the meter base and breaker panel.

***Slow as usual......I see Red has replied while I was dawdling.....:rofl: I suspect the neutral was missed in the panel.


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

He does not want to get into the breaker box.

BG


----------



## scootersid

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Check the outlet in the front!


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ive not yet opened that one. I guess its worth a shot. What should i look for?


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

See if it has 2 lines going to it.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Seeing as neither outlet is working, and both outlets have voltage; it obvious the neutral is an open circuit.

To attack the problem at the final end is rather time consuming. You really need to see if all is well at the beaker end, this is where the neutral originates.

I know you do not want to open the box. But just turn off the main breaker and then all except the very top is off.


----------



## misvit

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

You can also go outside and kill the power to the whole house (breaker box and all) and then you can touch everything inside the breaker box without any worry. How fun. Kill switch is located next to your electrical meter outside. Should be labeled 100-amp 150-amp, something like that (however much power is coming to your house) and is really just another big circuit breaker.


----------



## misvit

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Haven't read every post (7 pages to replace some outlets !!!) but if it hasn't already been mentioned yet, a good way to rerun a line (assuming that you may need to) after you've verified that power isn't correctly getting from the circuit breaker to the outlet, is undo the line from the breaker box and tape the new cable to the original with copious amounts of duct tape (a good 2-4 feet worth of overlap). then go to the first junction box/outlet in question and pool the new line through using the old. continue until you've pulled the entire line. This process can sometimes not work if the original electricians were "staple happy" then you have to abandon the old line and pop off the baseboards to run a new line through the studs, drilling a hole through each stud (not forgetting to put metal plates to protect your new line from nails). This is a pain, of course, which is why I always try the first method and hope to get lucky.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Misvit, i wont rule it out but were not at that point yet


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I went to exchange my broken plug in tester and this one also has a hard time going into some outlets. I don't want to force it this time and break it. what could that be due to? Some outlets it goes in fine though


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

What is the actual part number of the outlets?


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Its these ones (http://www.techsupportforum.com/forums/f265/fixing-outdoor-receptacles-854834-3.html#post5345737) where would it mention that number?


----------



## scootersid

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

the most likely spot for an open neutral is at the outlet on the front. take out the outlet see how many wires are in the box and check the connection of the wires to the outlet. the neutral is not likely to come loose in the panel. espically if everything else is working, meaning no other loose neutrals. did the outlets ever work? when did the quit working. if the outlet in the front is a push in type that is where the problem will be.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

The outlets havent worked for a long time. Ill take a look at the fromt outlet but whats a push outlet?


----------



## scootersid

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

where the wire push into the back of the outlet. used to be used on #12 and #14 wire but now I believe is limited to just the #12 wire


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

No i domt have any of those im this house.
Its an old house. Ill take a look at that outlet tmrw. If u can give me a couple of things to keep an eye out for or test so i can get it dome while itll be open.


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> Its these ones (http://www.techsupportforum.com/forums/f265/fixing-outdoor-receptacles-854834-3.html#post5345737) where would it mention that number?


Yes I saw that picture. Somewhere there is an item number. Cooper makes many different kinds of outlets. Those are probably bottom of the line.


----------



## scootersid

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

you need to make sure the wires are not corroded or loose are broken. did they work before the panel was changed? the outlets must have been added after the house was built unless it was built before GFCIs were required. see how many wires are in the box. take the wires off the outlet and check to see if you have power and neutral at this box. if not, then you will have to check the panel and see if you can follow how the wires are ran. if there is only one set of wires in the front outlet, then there has to be a junction box somewhere. If I had added the outlets I would have ran one wire from the panel to a JB in the attic or basement or crawl space. Then run one wire from the JB to each of the outlet boxes. That way you only have to run wire up or down the walls. The way the picture shows to me that they were part of the original house, not added. When you say old how old is that. Up until the sixties there was not a ground wire in the romex, just black and white. Yours is newer than that. GFCIs were not used until the seventies I believe


----------



## SABL

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



Solidify said:


> The outlets havent worked for a long time. Ill take a look at the fromt outlet but whats a push outlet?


Called a 'stab-lock' or 'quick connect'.........never to be used (at least by me). Some devices look like a stab-lock but the side screws secure the conductors.

Solidify doesn't want to open the breaker panel......and you can't blame him for that. Too many things you shouldn't touch unless you pull the meter or throw the disconnect (if one is present). Turning off the main breaker lessens the danger but doesn't eliminate it.

Solidify needs to call an electrician and verify that the GFCI is connected and the neutral is intact. Once that has been verified and if the outlets still aren't working then he can trace the system if he desires. Have the electrician tag the wire that is connected to the GFCI where it exits the breaker panel. Look for a JB (junction box) that is fed by that wire......with the outlets on opposite sides of the building I would expect to find one. 

I'm still thinking the neutral is completely missing at some point. With neither outlet working I would be looking closer to the source......inside the main panel or a junction box. Even with a weak neutral the GFCI should register a fault and trip immediately if the circuit is used.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Well, plain and simple, the only other place I can have a look which I have not done so yet is in the front outlet. If I don't find anything in there that can help, I'll just have the electrician fix it. I'm just holding off on making the call since I'd feel pretty stupid paying the man to come fix something that was wrong in either of the outlet boxes.


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

The boxes should be fine still. Did you ever clean the wires?

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

No i didnt clean the wires but im sitting in fromt of the fromt porch box with the power on and the receptacle pulled out with the plug in tester in the recep and its telling me that there is an open neutral. There is only one wire coming in this box as well (a ground, white and hot) I also noticed that whoever wired this outlet did not wrap the white and black wires on the same level (i.e. Theyre both on the right screw that is brass or silver but theyre at different heights)


----------



## SABL

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Diagonal screw mounting is OK as long as they are on the correct side and the tabs are intact.

2 conductors indicate a junction box or the circuit was branched in the panel. Depends on the location of the panel in regard to the location of the outlets.....there may not be a junction box. Need to open the main panel for a look-see. That's the first thing I would have done.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok ill call electrician then. Thanks guys


----------



## Jackever

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Wire = individual conductors
Cable= bundle of wires with outer covering.
So you have 3 wires coming in to this box.

It is ok that the white and black are on different levels as long as the white is on the silver and black on the brass sides... and the tabs still in place.

with only one cable coming in, it is not a feed through and like other say there is a junction some where.:smile:


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Yes the tabs r still in place. Ill never be able to find the junction box though. Those two outlets are the only things on this gfci breaker and they at opposite ends of the house. The backyard outlet is right above the panel which is in the coldroom


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

They probably branch off inside the breaker box.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Ok good call. Enough breaking my head with this. Im gonna call the electrician


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Or the front outlet is being fed by the rear out let.

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Regardless you guys are all right i should check the panel for thr open neutral first since both outlets are indicating they also have open neutrals


----------



## Basementgeek

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

By chance did you check the circuit with your new Multimeter between the hot wire and the bare ground wire? If the ground wire is connected you get 120 volts.

BG


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

I dont jnow how to use that thing lol -_- but if you tell me what to do ill do it asap!


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Put meter on AC volts. Stick one end in the narrow slot, stick the other in the ground hole.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Does it matter which of those prongs goes in which side of the outlet holes


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Not really but red is hot black in neutral


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*



oscer1 said:


> Not really but red is hot black in neutral


Im confused bc bg just told me to try touching between hot and bare ground and now ur telling me one touches neutral slot and the other touches hot slot


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Bg is right touch ground with black lead and power side of outlet with red lead should get110 volts. Yes red is positive black is negative.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

And when you say power side of outlet you mean to put the lead on the hot screw?


----------



## oscer1

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Yes that's right
what I was saying was just referring to the color of the leads when you asked if it matters what leads go where


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

It's AC so it doesn't matter which is positive and which is negative. It's switching 50 times a second with 50 Hz current.

Just stick them in the outlet slots.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

ok and if i do that and don't get 110? what does it mean? just trying to get some answers for when i do it incase no one is online to reply


----------



## Red Raspberry

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

If no 110v then then there either isn't 110v but your sniffer said there was.

So if no 110v to ground then the ground is open too like the neutral. More than likely there will be nothing between the two normal slots as the neutral is open and not there.

BTW the voltage can be 10% higher or lower.


----------



## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

*Solidify*, you're playing with fire. If you are not absolutely sure of what you are doing, you risk burning the place down, electrocuting yourself and others as well. Please consider calling in a a certified electrician.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Doc thats why i ask here before i do anything and dont do anything im not sure of like accesing the panel


----------



## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Receiving answers here in this forum will hardly give you the expertise and experience of a professional electrician who is appropriately licensed, bonded and insured. 

Home Advisor > Is Your Electrical Wiring the Fuse for a Bomb in Your Home? 


> *The Golden Rule*
> 
> These myths are important to debunk for homeowners, but they don't compare to this single piece of advice: Don't, don't, don't do it yourself. Asked what the most common cause of faulty electrical wiring, Williams says without hesitation, "People trying to do it themselves, and people passing themselves off as licensed electricians." Plumbers and handymen are the most common posers, but as a homeowner, you absolutely must check to make sure the person you hire has the necessary licensing.
> 
> The DIY culture is a natural extension of American know-how, pluck, and the shortage of qualified contractors in the home improvement industry. Many homeowners turn to the Internet for information about their projects. This won't cut it for electrical work. In fact, many electricians refuse to dole out advice about projects online not to protect their profit margins, but to avoid getting sued by a homeowner who misinterpreted the information. When it comes to electrical work in your home, perhaps the best wisdom comes from Socrates. If you know nothing else for sure about your electrical wiring, know the fact of your own ignorance and hire a licensed electrician.


I really hate to think of what might happen if your alterations end up killing someone.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

You make a compelling argument but a lot of the time I exercise sound judgment and stay clear of what I don't understand. I fully understand the risks of faulty electrical work, not only to the extent of residential damages but also to the exent of human life and that's why I give myself standards. For instance, like I mentioned, I won't work in the service panel because I don't understand how it works and what I can and can't touch. Working on light fictures, outlets and thermostats for instance, I've learned that using a voltage tester is the safest way to go to make sure the power is out. On the other hand, I've also heard stories of no power being detected but electricians still getting hurt from residual current or something else like that, so I do understand that anything can happen. But plain and simple, I'd rather take my chances and trust my judgment that I can discern what is a small enough job for me not to killed on (if something does go wrong) vs just coming to a halt all-together and thus not only leaving my house to rot but also not nurturing my desire to learn more about electrical work. 

In short, I agree with you 100% and sometimes I even have your voice on my shoulder telling me to leave it be for an electrician but then I also hear that other angel on my shoulder telling me to proceed slowly and with caution. I've done this for as long as I can remember for all the DIY work I do at home and it has helped me well thus far. People will call me compulsive for reading an entire user manual or following each step methodically but I'll just tell them I'd rather be safe than sorry. When people get tired or fustrated, they take shortcuts. I stop and pick up the work another time. 

Kudoos though for bringing up The Golden Rule, it opened up my eyes a bit.


----------



## SpywareDr

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Proceed at your own risk.

I'm out.


----------



## MPR

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

While you can diagnose problems in the circuit with a multimeter, it's much easier to just get a tester like this one:

http://www.amazon.ca/General-Tools-...qid=1405283604&sr=8-1&keywords=circuit+tester

If the tester shows a completely dead circuit then it's time to contact an electrician.

Since the outside sockets haven't been used in some time and you are not getting an inspection to sell the place anytime soon then fixing them is not really a priority -- put some solid covers on to prevent tenants from trying to use them and leave them alone.

Also, you need to consider the legal aspect, _especially_ if you have tenants. Out here in the "boondocks" I can legally do anything but connect to the main power grid myself. In fact, we have wired all the houses we built ourselves. However, in many jurisdictions that is not the case.

Legality of DIY electrical work

Even if you can legally work on residential wiring you also can be held legally responsible of you mis-wire something and injure someone else or damage another's property.

As a minimum, I'd spend a few weeks taking one of the many courses available on the internet. You really need to know more than just "attach the black wire to the brass screw" in order to safely perform home wiring.

This site has a training course that will get you started:

The Electrical how to site

Don't just skip around either -- take the _entire_ course -- you need to know what the electricity is doing in those wires you are hooking together.


----------



## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

Yup I have the plug in GFCI tester.



> Since the outside sockets haven't been used in some time and you are not getting an inspection to sell the place anytime soon then fixing them is not really a priority -- put some solid covers on to prevent tenants from trying to use them and leave them alone.


It's certainly not a priority but it would be nice to have them working for when I need to do yardwork.

OK I'll do the course.


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## Solidify

*Re: Fixing Outdoor Receptacles*

So my electrician came and it was the neutral in the panel that wasn't making good contact. All works now.


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## MPR

A lot of people will see an electrician simply move a wire and tighten a screw to fix a problem and then wonder why they were charged so much. They tend to forget that it oftentimes takes hundreds of hours of education and experience to be able to successfully diagnose the problem in order to make said simple fix.


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## oscer1

Glad it's all fixed and working


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## SABL

I've seen some 'inferior' panels where the screws in the buss wouldn't lug down tight enough to make a good bond with 14ga wire. Just lug 2 wires under the same screw.......

Glad it's fixed and hope the price wasn't too steep........if it was the electrician who originally replaced the panel it should have been a free of charge.


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## Red Raspberry

With the GFCI breaker the neutral does not go to a buss. Each neutral is unique to the circuit.


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## SABL

Red Raspberry said:


> With the GFCI breaker the neutral does not go to a buss. Each neutral is unique to the circuit.


True.....the neutral on the GFCI goes to the buss and the circuit neutral attaches to the GFCI. Have no idea where the neutral was lost and could have been at the breaker or where the breaker neutral ties in to the buss. Last time I installed one of those was 1980......:laugh:. 

At least it's fixed.......now to move on to getting rain-tight covers.


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## Red Raspberry

Probably at the wire nut where the splice was. The breaker wire is stranded, more than likely the house wiring is romex solid. What I have seen is the solid wire gets up into the nut but the stranded does not get tightly wound around it.

When joining stranded to solid with a wire nut always lead the stranded a 1/8" or so ahead of the solid then screw on the wire nut.


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## Solidify

Good point MPR. 



> Glad it's fixed and hope the price wasn't too steep........if it was the electrician who originally replaced the panel it should have been a free of charge.


No it wasn't the same. The one that came today was my good friend that became an electrician. He usually charges 35$/hour but he charged me 100$ for having stayed about 4 hours. We also hung about it also and worked at our own pace, waiting for sporadic rainfalls to clear up, so it wasn't that bad. He fixed a couple of things too also so I'm thankful.



> now to move on to getting rain-tight covers.


Yeah I'll look into those but for now he told me what I have is fine because both outlets are fairly covered and it's not like I use them in harsh weather, only when I'm trimming hedges which has to be good weather.


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## SABL

> When joining stranded to solid with a wire nut always lead the stranded a 1/8" or so ahead of the solid then screw on the wire nut.


Seen that happen too many times.......need to get a 'grab' on the stranded first or it will creep up the solid wire. Very common mistake that leads to a poor connection.

$100 not bad for half a day.......hope you watched closely and asked questions. I worked around pros for 30+ years and got to ask lots of questions......:laugh:. They're pretty much like most other trades where there is a big diference between residential and commercial work.


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## Solidify

Yes I asked questions and he wasn't very happy that I was doing electrical work myself


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## Solidify

> Probably at the wire nut where the splice was.


You can't have wire nuts in the panel. That's a code violation.


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## Red Raspberry

Solidify said:


> You can't have wire nuts in the panel. That's a code violation.


I guess that depends on if it has a neutral terminal or pigtail.


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## SABL

Solidify said:


> You can't have wire nuts in the panel. That's a code violation.


Ask them to cite the section of the code by number......never heard of this. A breaker panel is an oversized junction box where everything comes together. They may be talking about larger wires that require split-bolt connectors......10ga and smaller should be fine to wirenut. Some believe that you can only use electrician's tape......that's not only stupid, it's dangerous.....:facepalm:

As Red said.....it's the only way to install a GFCI breaker. And.......on a retrofit it may be the only option if the original installer 'short changed' you on wire. 

There are options, though. Crimp sleeve or solder and shrink tube would work........but, a splice is a splice.....period.


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## Red Raspberry

I've seen replacement panels where everything was wire nutted. Not much else you can do if the wire is too short.

Go here for any code questions in the USA.

Mike Holt's Forum


And here is a link to the question of wire nuts in a breaker panel.

upgrade of service panel


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## MPR

The US NEC allows use of wire nuts in breaker boxes if they are designed with enough space to allow this.



> 312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with
> Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors.
> 
> The wiring space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
> shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
> or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
> devices where all of the following conditions are met:
> (1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section
> of the wiring space does not exceed 40 percent of the
> cross-sectional area of that space.
> (2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed
> at any cross section of the wiring space does not
> exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
> space.
> (3) A warning label is applied to the enclosure that identifies
> the closest disconnecting means for any feedthrough
> conductors.


Older version of the code were written differently, which is where the confusion came in:



> 312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
> Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be
> used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors
> feeding through or tapping off to other switches or
> overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is
> provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any
> cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional
> area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall
> not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than
> 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.


Many inspectors didn't read past the first line, which was why the content was changed from "shall not be used" to "shall be permitted for."


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## Basementgeek

Codes do vary form place to place. Canada may not permit it.

BG


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## MPR

In the US, and I assume in Canada too, wire splices must be done inside junction boxes. In America, a breaker box will suffice if it's designed in such a way as to allow enough space. However, it seems that in Canada, a breaker box is not considered a junction box.

6-212 Wiring space in enclosures
(1) Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes


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## Red Raspberry

MPR said:


> In the US, and I assume in Canada too, wire splices must be done inside junction boxes. In America, a breaker box will suffice if it's designed in such a way as to allow enough space. However, it seems that in Canada, a breaker box is not considered a junction box.
> 
> 6-212 Wiring space in enclosures
> (1) Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes



If that is the case how does one handle the breakers with a pigtail neutral?


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## ~Mark

Red Raspberry said:


> If that is the case how does one handle the breakers with a pigtail neutral?


Pigtail to neutral bar/bus ? All GFCI and AFCI I've seen for sale in Canada have pigtails on them and all panels I've seen have neutral buses on both sides. But I haven't really looked at wiring on older (40+ years) homes.

It does appear that our specific canadian "CSA" does not allow the use of wire nuts inside breaker panels because there is live power inside the panel, unlike junction boxes which are inherently protected by breakers upstream. In other words, if a wire becomes loose inside a panel, there is [small] potential it could come into contact with a live bus ; the CSA decided to rule on it.


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## Red Raspberry

It can't go to the neutral bus as it has to stay with the individual circuit. It looks like the newer GFCI breakers are coming out with a neutral terminal on them. Haven't seen any though.


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## MPR

I can understand why they put the "no wire nuts in breaker boxes" code into place. When I was doing building maintenance I ran across a lot of wiring that looked like the picture below. Even in America this is a "no-no" but you see it a lot, especially in college towns where older houses have been broken up into student apartments.


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## ~Mark

Red Raspberry said:


> It can't go to the neutral bus as it has to stay with the individual circuit. It looks like the newer GFCI breakers are coming out with a neutral terminal on them. Haven't seen any though.


Yeah I wasn't thinking about the load neutral wire, just the pigtail. Since main panels can't be used as junction boxes up here, I would think electricians are trained to leave enough white (neutral) wire inside the panel to allow a future connection directly into breakers (GFCI/AFCI) up or down the panel, if needed. If you don't have enough wire for a breaker located far from where the cable enters the panel, then you either move the breaker closer, or call an electrician for options (re-wiring, GFCI outlets, etc...).


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