# Have the 70-290 / 70-291 been replaced?



## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm looking to take my Windows Server exams. It says I should take the *70-290* & the *70-291*. Both discuss maintaining Windows Server 2003. Have these exams been replaced with something new for Server 2008?

If so which Server 2008 exams should I focus (get started) on?


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## JMPC (Jan 15, 2011)

As far as I know they are still valid for the MS certifications. Which certification are you going for? Microsoft has a list of which exams are required for each cert:
Training Catalog


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

JMPC said:


> As far as I know they are still valid for the MS certifications. Which certification are you going for? Microsoft has a list of which exams are required for each cert:
> Training Catalog


I'm going after my MCSA and need to finish up my Windows Server exams. I'm confused because some schools say it's better to go into configuring Server 2008 now because it's the latest that Microsoft is offering, but you say they're still valid - Hmmmmmm - still confused!


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

I recently passed my 70-290 and have my 70-291 exam on 1st June so they are definately still valid. Server 2003 is still used a lot in the real world so having these exams are beneficial plus you can always update to Server 2008 after you get your MCSA which is what I plan on doing


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

lfcgeorge said:


> I recently passed my 70-290 and have my 70-291 exam on 1st June so they are definately still valid. Server 2003 is still used a lot in the real world so having these exams are beneficial plus you can always update to Server 2008 after you get your MCSA which is what I plan on doing


My question is, wouldn't it be better to just start with Server 2008 rather than having to update it?


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

Yeah why not, go for all of them.


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

lfcgeorge said:


> Yeah why not, go for all of them.



What resources did you use for the 70-290 (books, tutorials etc)?


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

CBT Nuggets for a stack of videos which are not free.
ProProfs: Knowledge Sharing Tools & Free Online Education for study guides and practice tests free of charge.
Also used Microsofts E-Learning Center for study guides but I obtained an access code from my College to be granted those resources.


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

Just a little bit of news for you Tech People reading this Thread:

SERVER 2003 70-290 / 70-291 are being done away with! Especially topics like Exchange/Messaging that will not be valid in Server 2008. This advice from another IT colleague. 

JEEZ LOUISE, how difficult it is to get advice from People in the IT INDUSTRY!!!!


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

They are STILL VALID.

Plus think about how many companies who cannot afford to upgrade to Server 2008!!?? Loads of companies still use 2003 Server so obviously doing the course is still beneficial.

Plus if you have the MCSA you can upgrade to MCTS/MCITP Server 2008 Qualifications without having to take as many exams.

So wise up and don't post stupid useless information kid.


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

lfcgeorge said:


> They are STILL VALID.
> 
> Plus think about how many companies who cannot afford to upgrade to Server 2008!!?? Loads of companies still use 2003 Server so obviously doing the course is still beneficial.
> 
> ...


Well they may still be valid now but if schools are not offering the 2003 Server exams anymore then that kind of tells me something. 

If you have your Server 2003 certifications it doesn't mean you don't have to do all 3 of the 2008 exams if you were to upgrade. That's TWICE the work to me. Especially since there are things on 2008 that are not on 2003.

I'm sold on doing my Server 2008!!!


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

You say your going for your MCSA? Good luck on getting that doing Sever 2008 exams, see if you have already done exams that count towards obtaining an MCSA and your going to give it up now then that's a very silly choice.

Pasted From:
Windows Server Certification | Microsoft Server exam list | Microsoft Certified Professional

If you are a Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator (MCSA) or a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (MCSE) on Windows Server 2003, you can apply your skills and knowledge to earn multiple Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist (MCTS) or Microsoft Certified IT Professional (MCITP) certifications on Windows Server 2008.

Having a Windows Server 2003 certification is also valuable in today's competitive IT marketplace. If you have started your certification on Windows Server 2003, we encourage you to continue your studies and earn either the MCSE or MCSA certification on Windows Server 2003. These certifications are relevant for current business needs and prepare you to upgrade your certification to Windows Server 2008.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

Schools will tyell you anything to get your cash.

Just so you know going for certifications that do not reflect your work experience level can be as bad as having no certifications at all. Schools wont tell you this though.

If you do not work with server 2008 then you shouldn't go for it it.

Just so you know XP will be around for years to come not every business in world can migrate to a new OS or server OS just because Microsoft decide to release one.

If you are a system engineer then the MCSE/A is the correct track for you but if you have no experience as a systems engineer then it is not.

There are certs for beginners and people wanting to get into IT and there are certs for people who work in IT.

Beginner certs are:compTIA A+, CompTIA Network+, MCTS windows 7 and at a push 70-270 but everything else is for people who work in IT.


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

Well said Greenbrucelee.

Millions of companies still use XP and Server 2003 and will do for a few more years.. Why? Well simply because they work, I mean why change something if it already works and gets the job done daily..

When I search for jobs the qualifications I see required are mostly MCSA/E. It all makes sense.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

lfcgeorge said:


> Well said Greenbrucelee.
> 
> Millions of companies still use XP and Server 2003 and will do for a few more years.. Why? Well simply because they work, I mean why change something if it already works and gets the job done daily..
> 
> When I search for jobs the qualifications I see required are mostly MCSA/E. It all makes sense.


If your looking for jobs at your level then the MCSE etc should be required however for a begginner it shouldn't be. I mean how many IT managers in reality will let someone with no experience regardless of their certs manage, support, design and maintain their network infrastructure? the answer is none unless they are mental.

I have said this before and will say it again when your looking for jobs say for 1st line support for example and you see that the MCSE is required then that job has either been doctored up by a HR department who have no knowledge of the IT industry or it has been created by an IT manager who used to be an accountant and really doesn't know the IT business as much as he/she think he does.


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

greenbrucelee said:


> If your looking for jobs at your level then the MCSE etc should be required however for a begginner it shouldn't be. I mean how many IT managers in reality will let someone with no experience regardless of their certs manage, support, design and maintain their network infrastructure? the answer is none unless they are mental.
> 
> I have said this before and will say it again when your looking for jobs say for 1st line support for example and you see that the MCSE is required then that job has either been doctored up by a HR department who have no knowledge of the IT industry or it has been created by an IT manager who used to be an accountant and really doesn't know the IT business as much as he/she think he does.


Nonsense! I take it you havent applied for jobs lately have you. Most companies require CERTIFICATIONS - EVEN WITH EXPERIENCE. If you're a seasoned IT person with years of experience behind you and you don't have certifications, well that's just stupid. 

Once again GreenBrucelee another misconception of yours; Who told you that schools lie about not needing experience? I know the school I go to never made me believe experience wasn't important. 

I recently had a conversation with hiring manager for a company in my area who told me his company is doing away with Server 2003. He said most companies are doing the same gradually with big jumps into Server 2008. What does that tell you? Just because some companies decide to stick with XP doesn't mean the majority are not considering or are making plans to migrate to Windows 7. It's all part of technology....


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

lfcgeorge said:


> Well said Greenbrucelee.
> 
> Millions of companies still use XP and Server 2003 and will do for a few more years.. Why? Well simply because they work, I mean why change something if it already works and gets the job done daily..
> 
> When I search for jobs the qualifications I see required are mostly MCSA/E. It all makes sense.


That's probaly one of the stupidest things I've heard an IT person say - "Why change something if it already works". Jeez, I don't know because we would never progress with that kind of mentality!

We've come from Windows NT, Windows Server 2000, Windows Server 2003 and now 2008. You think engineers were saying to themselves "Why change if it already works"? Technology is about change lfcGeorge. It's a constant change. If your not comfortable with change lfcGeorge you're probably in the wrong field.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

highoctanerock said:


> Nonsense! I take it you havent applied for jobs lately have you. Most companies require CERTIFICATIONS - EVEN WITH EXPERIENCE. If you're a seasoned IT person with years of experience behind you and you don't have certifications, well that's just stupid.
> 
> Once again GreenBrucelee another misconception of yours; Who told you that schools lie about not needing experience? I know the school I go to never made me believe experience wasn't important.
> 
> I recently had a conversation with hiring manager for a company in my area who told me his company is doing away with Server 2003. He said most companies are doing the same gradually with big jumps into Server 2008. What does that tell you? Just because some companies decide to stick with XP doesn't mean the majority are not considering or are making plans to migrate to Windows 7. It's all part of technology....


Yes companies do require certifications but if you read what I said which I will reapeat. Having certifications beyond your experience level can be as bad as having none. I would not hire someone for their first job in IT in 1st line support who had the MCSE because the first thing I would think is that they have used braindumps to get the MCSE.

Secondly its a fact that many schools and Training providers will sell courses to people that they have no business doing say for example the CCNA. Not many IT managers will let someone with no experience regardless of wether they are a CCNA or not manage and support their CISCO kit. I have dealt with many people who have said this school or this TP said if I do this course it will get me a job and it hasn't its actually made their job search harder because they have been over certified for their experience level.

think of this analogy: just because you can drive doesn't mean you will get a job as a stock car racer. Most stock car racers start of in go karting as young kids and it takes years of experience before they do stock cars same goes for IT just because you can pass some exames, say the MCSE doesn't mean you will get a job managing and maintaining a network infrastructure without having previous experience to build up to that level.

If you goto the microsoft website it says IT professionals working towards the MCSE will have atleast 12-18 months experience and most responsible IT managers will also know this and hire accordingly.

Third yes lots of companies who have the money and resources to do so will migrate and yes thats technology but not every company has the resources or budget to so and a lot of companies will still use XP and server 2003 long after Microsoft stop supporting it in 2014 it and thats because it's trusted and they have no need to upgrade at the present time. It costs a lot to migrate just because MS bring out a new OS, windows 8 is on the horizon and you cant expects small - medium sized business to jump to that after dishing out on windows 7 this is another reason why many businesses still use xp and will still use it. I know companies that still user server 2000 and windows 2000, I know one that still has an FTP setup running windows 98.

I have certs see my sig. I have been studying IT since I was 16 and I have been working in IT for last 8 years.


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

LOL! Im talking about Server 2003-2008, theres no real MAJOR differences. You think about it, WHY did Microsoft go out of their way and hand out FREE upgrades to Windows 7 if you bought an OEM machine within a certain date? Why have ACER Machines got XP Images so you can downgrade from Windows 7>XP or vice versa? (Speaking from experience working with ACER Moldels, could be other OEMs doing the same). Why have we got Windows XP Mode within Windows 7 Virtual PC? Your going on about technology changing, do you mean Hardware? That's the main thing that's changing in todays technology world, not blooming Operating SOFTWARE Systems!

To all NON IT passionate people around the world, if they where to ask me what operating system can get my job done between XP and 7? I would say either, they both have the same performance aspects, only real thing your average Jim would notice is the visual effects of 7 and XP users would lose out in IE9, oh.. the world is over!!

You know one of the most important things a company want's from you is to bring them a secure effective IT Infrastructure at a cost-effective price. This is why theres a such thing as Site Surveys, to bring only what is needed to the office. Not all high-end technology which just sits around burning the Directors pockets.

Now go back to college and come back when you have some sort of idea of what your talking about.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

lfcgeorge said:


> LOL! Im talking about Server 2003-2008, theres no real MAJOR differences. You think about it, WHY did Microsoft go out of their way and hand out FREE upgrades to Windows 7 if you bought an OEM machine within a certain date? Why have ACER Machines got XP Images so you can downgrade from Windows 7>XP or vice versa? (Speaking from experience working with ACER Moldels, could be other OEMs doing the same). Why have we got Windows XP Mode within Windows 7 Virtual PC? Your going on about technology changing, do you mean Hardware? That's the main thing that's changing in todays technology world, not blooming Operating SOFTWARE Systems!
> 
> To all NON IT passionate people around the world, if they where to ask me what operating system can get my job done between XP and 7? I would say either, they both have the same performance aspects, only real thing your average Jim would notice is the visual effects of 7.
> 
> Now go back to college and come back when you have some sort of idea of what your talking about.


exactly all out machines at work which are HP had the downgrade option and guess what they have all been downgraded.

And yes thats what I mean by not all companies have the resources to upgrade to a new OS because it means upgrading the hardware too. It was the same when they was the big fuss when NT 3.51 was released it did its job so why bother changing.


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

greenbrucelee said:


> exactly all out machines at work which are HP had the downgrade option and guess what they have all been downgraded.
> 
> And yes thats what I mean by not all companies have the resources to upgrade to a new OS because it means upgrading the hardware too. It was the same when they was the big fuss when NT 3.51 was released it did its job so why bother changing.


Exactly, and that is the main reason now I am extra glad I have my MCDST, 70-270, 70-290 and going for my 70-291 to finish off the MCSA.

And yes, I have experience working in the field Servers and Client machines.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

You above me experience wise but I knew that just by your responses to the post.

I am currently going for the MCITP windows 7 before I move onto the MCSA which I will probably start of on the 70-291.

MS wont retire the MCSA and MCSE xp tracks for a while although they have with the MCDST to try and get more people onto 7.


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## PinoyIT (Feb 28, 2011)

I have to disagree with that. You have to get certifications beyond your experience level. Five years at help desk will not get you any closer to having experience with Cisco. A guy holding a CCNA with no experience will know more than you when it comes to configuring cisco devices. How are you going to advance from help desk to a network admin position? By getting certification out of your experience level. Otherwise you're going to be stuck.

If you are an IT manager looking to hire a Junior Network Administrator, and you are given an option between two potential employees. One is a fresh graduate with a degree in IT and a CCNA. The other is a guy who has 5 years experience in a computer repair shop and holds an A+ and Network+. Who would you choose?

Would you hire the guy with no professional IT experience but has lab experience configuring routing protocols, access control lists, vlans, etc.? Or the guy who has 5 years of professional IT experience but doesn't even know what global configuration is?


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

Nice one, sounds good to me! Windows 7 isn't too bad, I done the 70-680 Windows 7 Configuring MCTS exam around a year ago, you will need to do that to get the MCITP (Along with more Windows 7 exams of course), but I found the 70-680 kinda like the 70-270, quite a bit in depth unlike the MCDST XP exams but very much passable.

As for the 291, well I done 290 first, which was hard, but the 291 is on a different level again. It's a good bit more on the networking side (DNS(BIG), RRAS, DHCP, and all your TCP/IP Protocols and Secedit etc etc but if you pass the 291 first I would go straight for the 290 and to be honest with your 291 knowledge you shouldn't have too much off a problem passing the 290 which points more towards AD, Backups, Permissions etc. :smile:


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

lfcgeorge said:


> Nice one, sounds good to me! Windows 7 isn't too bad, I done the 70-680 Windows 7 Configuring MCTS exam around a year ago, you will need to do that to get the MCITP (Along with more Windows 7 exams of course), but I found the 70-680 kinda like the 70-270, quite a bit in depth unlike the MCDST XP exams but very much passable.
> 
> As for the 291, well I done 290 first, which was hard, but the 291 is on a different level again. It's a good bit more on the networking side (DNS(BIG), RRAS, DHCP, and all your TCP/IP Protocols and Secedit etc etc but if you pass the 291 first I would go straight for the 290 and to be honest with your 291 knowledge you shouldn't have too much off a problem passing the 290 which points more towards AD, Backups, Permissions etc. :smile:


Yep since getting the 70-270 I figured the 70-680 shouldn't be too much different apart from its windows 7 and so far it seems I am correct.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

PinoyIT said:


> I have to disagree with that. You have to get certifications beyond your experience level. Five years at help desk will not get you any closer to having experience with Cisco. A guy holding a CCNA with no experience will know more than you when it comes to configuring cisco devices. How are you going to advance from help desk to a network admin position? By getting certification out of your experience level. Otherwise you're going to be stuck.
> 
> If you are an IT manager looking to hire a Junior Network Administrator, and you are given an option between two potential employees. One is a fresh graduate with a degree in IT and a CCNA. The other is a guy who has 5 years experience in a computer repair shop and holds an A+ and Network+. Who would you choose?
> 
> Would you hire the guy with no professional IT experience but has lab experience configuring routing protocols, access control lists, vlans, etc.? Or the guy who has 5 years of professional IT experience but doesn't even know what global configuration is?


I'd choose the guy who worked in the computer repair shop hands down. There is no way in hell I would hire someone with the CCNA who has no experience but I would hire someone who has the network+ and experience.

The CCNA is for people who already manage and support cisco kit much like the MCSE is for people who support and maintain a 250+ user multi server environment. No one walks into a networking job anyway without any previous experience of doing some sort of support role unless they are extremley lucky just like no one walks into a security role without previousley being involved in networking.

This is how it generally goes unless you are lucky

Support (either help desk or basic IT Tech duties > network support or more advanced IT tech duties > network or system administration > senior network or senior systems administrations > management roles etc etc.

so certification wise its basic certs i.e A+, N+,MCTS windows 7 > slightly more advanced certs > (70-270, MCSA,CCNA) advanced certs (MCSE etc) > super certs which are CCNP upwards.


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

I would also choose the guy with experience because we all know too well that half the things you need to learn to complete Microsoft exams rarely get carried over into the real world.


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

lfcgeorge said:


> Well said Greenbrucelee.
> 
> Millions of companies still use XP and Server 2003 and will do for a few more years.. Why? Well simply because they work, I mean why change something if it already works and gets the job done daily..
> 
> When I search for jobs the qualifications I see required are mostly MCSA/E. It all makes sense.





PinoyIT said:


> I have to disagree with that. You have to get certifications beyond your experience level. Five years at help desk will not get you any closer to having experience with Cisco. A guy holding a CCNA with no experience will know more than you when it comes to configuring cisco devices. How are you going to advance from help desk to a network admin position? By getting certification out of your experience level. Otherwise you're going to be stuck.
> 
> If you are an IT manager looking to hire a Junior Network Administrator, and you are given an option between two potential employees. One is a fresh graduate with a degree in IT and a CCNA. The other is a guy who has 5 years experience in a computer repair shop and holds an A+ and Network+. Who would you choose?
> 
> Would you hire the guy with no professional IT experience but has lab experience configuring routing protocols, access control lists, vlans, etc.? Or the guy who has 5 years of professional IT experience but doesn't even know what global configuration is?


Thank you Voice of Reason! These guys on here seem to think a certification is like getting junk mail. LFCGeorge even goes as far as to contradict himself by saying Server 2003 is better to start off with, and then says well Server 2008 and Server 2003 are almost identical. Come on buddy, which is it!

I can't help to think that some of these IT guys feel threatened and look to discourage others....


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## PinoyIT (Feb 28, 2011)

So you would rather hire someone who knows nothing about cisco to work on your cisco devices over somebody who knows how to configure routing protocols, acls, vlans, vtp, wan protocols, etc.?

IT is a HUGE field and IT experience isn't all the same. What does his PC repair experience help with configuring cisco devices? The Network+ doesn't help. It covers the very basic. I've taken the CCNA Cisco Academy Classes and all of Network+ is covered in one of the 4 classes. Would you hire him too for a Software Developer position over a fresh comp sci graduate? Software Development is part of information technology as well.

Your argument that you shouldn't get certified beyond your experience is flawed. If you shouldn't get a CCNA without work experience with cisco devices, then you shouldn't get an A+ without work experience with repairing PCs, you shouldn't get a Deploying Windows 7 cert without work experience deploying Windows 7, you shouldn't get a Security+ without infosec experience. Everybody starts without experience. So how do you break into the IT field if you shouldn't get certs without work experience related to the cert?

I know several people who have gone to an infosec position without networking experience. The thing they have in common is that they all went to college. The other thing that you downplay so much. If you want to get into higher level positions in IT, education and certs are king. If you don't get an education and only get entry level certs then you'll be stuck at entry level position for a long time. Aim low and you will stay low. If you're not at a senior level in 10 years then you're doing something wrong.

Oh and every single networking interview I've had quizzed me on cisco related materials. I'm sure they'll hire someone who doesn't even know what a rollover cable is because he has experience removing viruses (/sarcasm).


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## PinoyIT (Feb 28, 2011)

highoctanerock said:


> Thank you Voice of Reason! These guys on here seem to think a certification is like getting junk mail. LFCGeorge even goes as far as to contradict himself by saying Server 2003 is better to start off with, and then says well Server 2008 and Server 2003 are almost identical. Come on buddy, which is it!
> 
> I can't help to think that some of these IT guys feel threatened and look to discourage others....


The thing that irks me the most is the talking down on education. Bill Gates may have dropped out of college and became a billionaire but not everybody can be like Bill Gates. All of my friends who are in a good paying IT position has either graduated from college or got education/training in the military. A friend of mine has been working at help desk for several years and he hates it! He wants to move up in IT but he's only getting calls for help desk positions. He wants to go into networking but his several years experience in help desk isn't helping him out at all. I wonder why he's considering looking into getting a CCNA? He's coming over this weekend to borrow my cisco books.


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

highoctanerock said:


> Thank you Voice of Reason! These guys on here seem to think a certification is like getting junk mail. LFCGeorge even goes as far as to contradict himself by saying Server 2003 is better to start off with, and then says well Server 2008 and Server 2003 are almost identical. Come on buddy, which is it!
> 
> I can't help to think that some of these IT guys feel threatened and look to discourage others....


Contradicting myself? Wouldn't think so.. You come back with the quote where I have said 'Server 2003 is better than Server 2008'.

Getting certs is like getting junk mail? You are clearly the one treating the MCSA as junk mail, why go for the MCSA then instead of cleaning up on the two Server 2003 exams instead you want to go for Server 2008 which blows any chance off you getting an MCSA? Read what you post in future.

I'm waiting.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

highoctanerock said:


> Thank you Voice of Reason! These guys on here seem to think a certification is like getting junk mail. LFCGeorge even goes as far as to contradict himself by saying Server 2003 is better to start off with, and then says well Server 2008 and Server 2003 are almost identical. Come on buddy, which is it!
> 
> I can't help to think that some of these IT guys feel threatened and look to discourage others....


We are not saying that at all. We are saying that being over certified for your experience level is a bad thing and we are saying that not every company migrates as soon as MS bring out new operating system. If you go down to basics any when LFCGeorge says that server 2003 and 2008 are almost identical he is correct because the kernel and all the inners are just about identical they just look a bit different and 2008 has bit more you can do but not so much to make you think wow I really must upgrade now.



PinoyIT said:


> So you would rather hire someone who knows nothing about cisco to work on your cisco devices over somebody who knows how to configure routing protocols, acls, vlans, vtp, wan protocols, etc.?
> 
> IT is a HUGE field and IT experience isn't all the same. What does his PC repair experience help with configuring cisco devices? The Network+ doesn't help. It covers the very basic. I've taken the CCNA Cisco Academy Classes and all of Network+ is covered in one of the 4 classes. Would you hire him too for a Software Developer position over a fresh comp sci graduate? Software Development is part of information technology as well.
> 
> ...


Sorry but you have falllen into the trap of thinking what you have learned is how it is in the real world and it isn't like that at all. I have a tip for you for when your studying microsoft certifications. There's the Microsoft way of doing things and the real way of doing things.

You also think that if you get entry level certs and don't go any higher that you will be in an entry level position forever. This is not the case its only people who dont show any passion or get up and go that dont progress.

Say you in an entry level 1st line support job now if you thought there was achance of progressing would you stay after work even if not getting paid and carry on doing your duties? most people wouldn't and this is why they dont progress.

Most IT managers when looking at someone who has no experience but have high level certs say for example the MCSE will immediatley think this guy has got his MCSE (which MS state you must have 12-18 month experience as a systems engineer or doing systems engineer type work) but has no experience he may have studied very hard but has probably cheated by using braindumps.

The CCNA for example is for cisco related networking devices any network manager crazy enough to let someone loose on their network with no proper experience regarless of wether they have the CCNA or not should be shot because they are only one step away from a wrong congfig or screwed up setting to bring the network to its knees. That is why networking requires experience.


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

You once again are correct. There is no way you can possibly get high quality certs like MCSE without no experience and Microsoft even says this.. Unless as stated above you are either a studying king or you use corrupt methods.

Experience is everything, the Certs are there to back you up.

A guy with a qualification like an MCSE with no Experience is like building a car without testing it on the road. Now what IT Recruiter wants to put that risk onto their Network? Certainly not 21st Century ones anyway..


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

Yep a lot of people dont seem to get what certifications are.

Certifications are not qualifications. A certification is designed to show your experience level and current skill set and by experience level it means in a job. So by default the A+, Network+ show that you have no experience but have the capability to progress from those levels in IT. Whilst certs such as the MCSE or CCNA show that you have specific experience in the areas those certs relate to.

Qualifications are designed to show you have mental capacity for any given subject and that you excel in that area but it does not mean that you can actually do the job.


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

greenbrucelee said:


> We are not saying that at all. We are saying that being over certified for your experience level is a bad thing and we are saying that not every company migrates as soon as MS bring out new operating system. If you go down to basics any when LFCGeorge says that server 2003 and 2008 are almost identical he is correct because the kernel and all the inners are just about identical they just look a bit different and 2008 has bit more you can do but not so much to make you think wow I really must upgrade now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look GreenBrucelee - I realize that getting all the Certs in the world is not going to land me a job implementing a companies infrastructure right off the batt. I know experience is also a factor with making a final decision on hiring a client. I do realize this, BUT........

Getting these certs I believe will at least help me get my foot in the door. I'm sure of it. BUT LET ME WORRY ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE PART LATER! It's not like kids graduating with a degree in Computer Science are never going to be able to land a job because they have NO experience. There's no need to discourage someone because a lack of experience. Everyone has to start somewhere. Now, I do believe we've gone way off topic here.

My initial question was whether or not I should choose between Server 2003 or 2008. I don't think anyone who's read this thread has bothered to answer my question or provide some insight on the two directly. My only answer came from a business owner who gave me some insight to the Server exams. 

My question is; if there's not much difference between Server 2003 & 2008 than why not do the most recent or updated version? Seems only logical that if I'm going to start off with a Server exam than it might as well be 2008. 

The bottomline is, I want to get into doing Systems Administration. This I believe requires some Server knowledge. Are we clear on all of this or does LFCGeorge need some help in comprehension?


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

Its upto you at the end of the day but I will tell you that I have had so many people say to me I have the MCSE or I have the CCNA and no one will give me a job. As soon as they got some entry level certs and went for entry level positions they got jobs and after a year or two they were able to put the high level certs back on their resumes and then get better jobs.

If you want to get into server administration then believe me when I tell you that you will never walk into a server admin job without building up your experience do support or IT tech duties first. It doesn't work like that unless you are extremley lucky.

I can put another slant on it. There is no harm in studying high level certs but getting the cert without the required experience is not a good idea utill you have that experience.


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

highoctanerock said:


> I'm going after my MCSA and need to finish up my Windows Server exams.


Your answer is BELOW! As PREVIOUSLY POSTED.



lfcgeorge said:


> Why go for the MCSA then instead of cleaning up on the two Server 2003 exams instead you want to go for Server 2008 which blows any chance off you getting an MCSA? Read what you post in future.


Now I've asked you why do Server 2008 exams if you want your MCSA in previous posts but you seem to have trouble answering them. Need help in comprehension?

Also seem to have problems answering this question:


lfcgeorge said:


> Contradicting myself? Wouldn't think so.. You come back with the quote where I have said 'Server 2003 is better than Server 2008'.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

back in about 1993 IT was really well paid and if you had a degree you could basically walk into the job of your dreams. Certs helped to but because people started cheating on certs with braindumps this devalued the IT field and when the dot com bubble burst it made it even worse.

This another reason why people dont walk into their dream jobs untill they have avast amount of experience behind them.


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## PinoyIT (Feb 28, 2011)

You conveniently don't reply to some questions I've brought up. You're right you wouldn't let a CCNA with no experience just start configuring your cisco devices. But, you wouldn't let a guy with extensive PC repair experience do it either. How is he a better candidate when he can't even answer a single question related to cisco devices?

My other question was would you hire him too for a programming job over a comp sci graduate with no experience?

Let's look at the MCSE. Would you hire him over somebody with an MCSE when he doesn't even know what Active Directory is? If you give them a list of users to add to a specific OU, who would be more likely to know how to do this?

How long have you been in IT, 8 years? After 8 years, you're still working a support job and still have entry level certs. If you had spent 4 of those years getting a bachelor's degree and doing internships and 4 more years getting experience and certs, then don't you think you'd be in a better position to find better jobs. 8 years!?! You should be making big money by now.

To the OP, I would go for 2008. There's not much difference between 2008 and 2003. Future proof your certs. Why get the 2003 now then get the 2008 later when you can just get the 2008 now? It'll look good to companies who use 2008 now, are looking to migrate to 2008, and even those who still have 2003. Having certs on 2003 only looks good to those who are using 2003.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

PinoyIT said:


> You conveniently don't reply to some questions I've brought up. You're right you wouldn't let a CCNA with no experience just start configuring your cisco devices. But, you wouldn't let a guy with extensive PC repair experience do it either. How is he a better candidate when he can't even answer a single question related to cisco devices?
> 
> My other question was would you hire him too for a programming job over a comp sci graduate with no experience?
> 
> ...


Your missing the point he isn't a better candidate to configure cisco devices because he wouldn't get the chance just like anyone else until they had around a years experience in general networking but he would get the general networking role over the guy with the CCNA because he has experience and just because he works ina computer repaid shop doesn't mean that he wouldn't have regularly dealt with IP issues and networking problems. People in pc repair shops setup networks and advice customers on networking all the time.

See your under the assumption that if you get a networking job then you start dealing with cisco kit, sorry to dissapoint but it doesn't work like that.

Actually if I put all of the certificatiions and qualifications I had they would fit on the screen I have the equivalent of what you in US call an associates degree its been good enough for me, I could list the rest in a post if you wanted me to.

I am not in a support job I have been there and done that. I have never mentioned how much I make. 

What if I told you I only have to work 3 days a week because I get paid enough?


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

lfcgeorge said:


> Your answer is BELOW! As PREVIOUSLY POSTED.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





greenbrucelee said:


> Your missing the point he isn't a better candidate to configure cisco devices because he wouldn't get the chance just like anyone else until they had around a years experience in general networking but he would get the general networking role over the guy with the CCNA because he has experience and just because he works ina computer repaid shop doesn't mean that he wouldn't have regularly dealt with IP issues and networking problems. People in pc repair shops setup networks and advice customers on networking all the time.
> 
> See your under the assumption that if you get a networking job then you start dealing with cisco kit, sorry to dissapoint but it doesn't work like that.
> 
> ...





PinoyIT said:


> You conveniently don't reply to some questions I've brought up. You're right you wouldn't let a CCNA with no experience just start configuring your cisco devices. But, you wouldn't let a guy with extensive PC repair experience do it either. How is he a better candidate when he can't even answer a single question related to cisco devices?
> 
> My other question was would you hire him too for a programming job over a comp sci graduate with no experience?
> 
> ...


PINOYIT - I couldn't have said it better myself man! Sounds to me like I probably should've asked you my initial question all along! One guy is hung up on Certs and the other guy (LFCGeorge) just doesn't seem to grasp any concept whatsoever. 

GreenBrucelee - I think you've made your point. Certs with no experience means start with Help Desk first. I think we all understand this but keep this in mind: 2 Help Desk employees, one has Server knowledge and the other doesn't. The company needs an assistant to the System Admin for your dept. Who do you think will be the first in line when that position becomes available? 

LFCGeorge - Yes, I did mention MCSA because that is or was what you needed to apply for Systems Administration position. The MCSA requires Server 2003 exams. My initial concern/question was, "why do Server 2003 when 2008 is available". You seem to have beated around the bush - for whatever reason. Not cool! I asked around, and finally found the answer I was looking for, with NO THANKS to you!

GENTLEMEN, This is a copy from an email I recieved today from Career Builder! I did not make this up!

*JOB DESCRIPTION*

This position is open as of 5/23/2011. 

System Network Administrator, HelpDesk, *MS Server 2008*, SQL Server, Exchange, Windows 7, XP, 

Skills sets you need:
- MS Server 2008
- SQL Server
- Exchange
- Windows 7
- XP
- Network Administration

Network Administrator - HelpDesk - Desktop Support


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## PinoyIT (Feb 28, 2011)

Consumer grade network devices that a computer repair shop generally deals with is a whole lot different from what businesses use. I highly doubt someone who has several years experience messing around with wireless routers that you can buy at an electronics store would know what to do in front of a Cisco IOS.

You're right, no IT Manager would trust a guy with a CCNA and no experience to work on cisco equipments on his own. But, no IT Manager would also trust a guy who has several years of networking experience but is clueless when it comes to cisco. If he's never dealt with cisco before then he's just as likely if not more to mess up a configuration than a fresh graduate with a CCNA.

It's like when I trained people when I worked as a telecommunications technician. I had a guy who was transferring over from systems test. He works at the same company and has several years experience dealing with the same products that I work on but I work on the component level and he doesn't. He was such a pain to work with because I had to teach him everything. He didn't even know Ohm's law. After they put him back on systems test I had another guy who has a degree in electronics engineering technologies. He straight up told me that he doesn't have any troubleshooting experience. Two weeks of training and he was troubleshooting on his own. Came to me once in a while to ask a question but other than that he was great. He even knew how to read schematics. When I put a schematic in front of the other guy it looked like he was looking at an abstract painting trying to make something out of the shapes and lines.

So I ask again and hopefully get an answer this time, would you hire an experienced PC repair tech over a fresh comp sci graduate as a programmer?

You said you're in network support. So do you have any other certs other than entry level ones? 8 years is a long time. Sorry but I didn't join this field just to make enough. I make enough now but I'm aiming for something higher. In 8 years I aim to make more than double than what I make now.

You may say that I got lucky with jumping to a systems admin position as my first job in IT. But I just got another offer for a networking position somewhere else that pays even more money. They have my old resume so as far as they know I have zero experience. Guess I'm just real lucky. I'm sure my degree and CCNA has absolutely nothing to do with it. Like you said, it will hurt me more than it will help. I'm so glad I'm hurting right now.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

highoctanerock said:


> PINOYIT - I couldn't have said it better myself man! Sounds to me like I probably should've asked you my initial question all along! One guy is hung up on Certs and the other guy (LFCGeorge) just doesn't seem to grasp any concept whatsoever.
> 
> GreenBrucelee - I think you've made your point. Certs with no experience means start with Help Desk first. I think we all understand this but keep this in mind: 2 Help Desk employees, one has Server knowledge and the other doesn't. The company needs an assistant to the System Admin for your dept. Who do you think will be the first in line when that position becomes available?
> 
> ...


Your first mistake is thinking you will get a networking job as your first position the second is believing that the job above is suitable for you even if you had all of those certs.

I have a tip join a certification forum such as certforums.co.uk they have a .com address to and ask them on there. The people on that forum are IT managers, systems admins, network admins and people who write certification exams.

Write this for your first post: I have no experience I want to be a systems admin I am gonna studdy for the server 2008 exams and see what sort of response you get.

I have never said taht your first job has to be help desk, you can start of as a trainee IT technican where you would get exposure to lots of different areas. Although trainee IT techs are harder to come by they have more scope and you will progress faster than being on a help desk. But like I said they are very rare.

Yes I will agree with you that the guy with server knowledge would most likely get the position but if the guy had the cert without the experience then thats a different story. Do you see what I meant when I said about the people having to hide the fact they had high level certs on their resumes? because they had no direct experience that the cert is designed to backup then this is actually counter productive because it goes against what s=certs are designed to do.

I am not hung up on certs I am just trying to point you in the correct direction. As I have said previousley I have seen it too many times where someone has had a high level cert with no experience in that area and they can't get a job so they have had to hide the high level cert on their resume and as soon as they did that they got a job.


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

PinoyIT said:


> Consumer grade network devices that a computer repair shop generally deals with is a whole lot different from what businesses use. I highly doubt someone who has several years experience messing around with wireless routers that you can buy at an electronics store would know what to do in front of a Cisco IOS.
> 
> You're right, no IT Manager would trust a guy with a CCNA and no experience to work on cisco equipments on his own. But, no IT Manager would also trust a guy who has several years of networking experience but is clueless when it comes to cisco. If he's never dealt with cisco before then he's just as likely if not more to mess up a configuration than a fresh graduate with a CCNA.
> 
> ...


Yes but they PC repair shop guy will have more experience in general networking than they guy who has studied the CCNA and has no experience and when they guy is given the job he would be gradually introduced to the cisco kit over a year this would even happen with a guy who had the ccna even if he had renewed it 3 times in a row.

No I wouldn't hire a pc repair guy over a science graduate because thats two different fields a good degree in programming for a programmer is a must.

Yes you have been lucky and I am glad you have been but 99% of the time it doesn't work like that as I have previously said. BTW I do earn a lot more than I did 8 years ago. I dont just earn enough to get by I earn enough only to have to work 3 days a week.

Some people do get lucky but most or not. I have said before I know a guy who left school at 16 he is now a consultant and earns a basic wage of $225000 a year but he usually earns more due to working longer than stated hours.

Like I said I am only advising the OP from my and just about everyone elses experiences and I have stated that you are lucky if you start of like you do. He may well get lucky but not everyone is.


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## lfcgeorge (Jun 6, 2010)

You know highoctanrock, good luck on your life, you don't have a clue whatsoever plus you have no clue about IT.

I'm out.


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

greenbrucelee said:


> Yes but they PC repair shop guy will have more experience in general networking than they guy who has studied the CCNA and has no experience and when they guy is given the job he would be gradually introduced to the cisco kit over a year this would even happen with a guy who had the ccna even if he had renewed it 3 times in a row.
> 
> No I wouldn't hire a pc repair guy over a science graduate because thats two different fields a good degree in programming for a programmer is a must.
> 
> ...


I understand and appreciate your feedback GreenBrucelee, but things may work a little differently here in the States than they do in the UK. For here, I think it all depends on the company that hires you to determine whether or not they want to put you in a role of administering and maintaining their companies Network with little to no experience. Believe it or not GreenBrucelee there are companies that will train you as you go. 

For example, the last company I worked for if I stayed with them would have trained me to maintain their Servers with NO EXPERIENCE behind me! Grant it those companies are few and far between but they do exist. However, here in the states even for an entry level Help Desk position most companies require you to have at least one or two certifications - that you can guarantee! So you see GreenBrucelee, certifications are important to some level...

I plan on taking my Server 2008 exams by late June! This will be on my resume/CV regardless of the position I obtain. It will help me because I will be one leg up on the other Help Desk employees WITHOUT IT!!!


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

lfcgeorge said:


> You know highoctanrock, good luck on your life, you don't have a clue whatsoever plus you have no clue about IT.
> 
> I'm out.


And goodluck to you LFCGeorge - Let me know when you have to go back and take the SERVER 2008 exams and I'll be done!!!


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## greenbrucelee (Apr 24, 2007)

highoctanerock said:


> I understand and appreciate your feedback GreenBrucelee, but things may work a little differently here in the States than they do in the UK. For here, I think it all depends on the company that hires you to determine whether or not they want to put you in a role of administering and maintaining their companies Network with little to no experience. Believe it or not GreenBrucelee there are companies that will train you as you go.
> 
> For example, the last company I worked for if I stayed with them would have trained me to maintain their Servers with NO EXPERIENCE behind me! Grant it those companies are few and far between but they do exist. However, here in the states even for an entry level Help Desk position most companies require you to have at least one or two certifications - that you can guarantee! So you see GreenBrucelee, certifications are important to some level...
> 
> I plan on taking my Server 2008 exams by late June! This will be on my resume/CV regardless of the position I obtain. It will help me because I will be one leg up on the other Help Desk employees WITHOUT IT!!!


Like I said its upto you but I have worked in the states and its basically the same there as it is here. There are companies over here that train you too.


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## PinoyIT (Feb 28, 2011)

highoctanerock said:


> I understand and appreciate your feedback GreenBrucelee, but things may work a little differently here in the States than they do in the UK. For here, I think it all depends on the company that hires you to determine whether or not they want to put you in a role of administering and maintaining their companies Network with little to no experience. Believe it or not GreenBrucelee there are companies that will train you as you go.
> 
> For example, the last company I worked for if I stayed with them would have trained me to maintain their Servers with NO EXPERIENCE behind me! Grant it those companies are few and far between but they do exist. However, here in the states even for an entry level Help Desk position most companies require you to have at least one or two certifications - that you can guarantee! So you see GreenBrucelee, certifications are important to some level...
> 
> I plan on taking my Server 2008 exams by late June! This will be on my resume/CV regardless of the position I obtain. It will help me because I will be one leg up on the other Help Desk employees WITHOUT IT!!!


The key thing when you put your resume on sites like careerbuilder and monster is to set your desired salary low if you're looking for an entry level job specially with most companies going to hiring agencies and recruiters for their IT needs. The recruiters will look for someone who is qualified but is willing to do the job for less because that means they make more money. Somebody could have a little more experience than you but if you're willing to do it for less than what he wants then you'll more likely get the job. It'll probably be a contract-to-hire position so getting the job is one thing but keeping the job is another.


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## highoctanerock (Jul 29, 2010)

PinoyIT said:


> The key thing when you put your resume on sites like careerbuilder and monster is to set your desired salary low if you're looking for an entry level job specially with most companies going to hiring agencies and recruiters for their IT needs. The recruiters will look for someone who is qualified but is willing to do the job for less because that means they make more money. Somebody could have a little more experience than you but if you're willing to do it for less than what he wants then you'll more likely get the job. It'll probably be a contract-to-hire position so getting the job is one thing but keeping the job is another.



Makes sense to me PinoyIT. I'll make some adjustments on Career Builder and set my salary range low. We'll see what happens. Thanks again for the advice PinoyIT!!!!


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## PinoyIT (Feb 28, 2011)

Get any calls from Aflac or other insurance companies yet?


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