# Infinity Ward Silences Community



## RockmasteR (Aug 10, 2007)

that doesn't look good at all
http://www.gamersnexus.net/component/content/article/47-newsfront1/221-iw-silences-community


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## Zealex (Nov 30, 2008)

Wow, just wow. Are they taking away the right to have a petition? I don't think I'll consider getting a IW game.


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## GoSuNi (Dec 5, 2008)

Looks like I'm not buying Modern Warefare 2. No dedicated server = No fun.


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## RockmasteR (Aug 10, 2007)

and I think that what players should do
just threaten IW on their own forums that no dedicated servers = I won't buy the game
petitions won't do the job
after all, we the players decides if the game fails or wins cause we are paying for it


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## Zealex (Nov 30, 2008)

I hope mw2 becomes unsuccessful, maybe they will rethink of what the buyer has too say? Besides it would be kinda of funny too:3-evilwin


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## RockmasteR (Aug 10, 2007)

UPDATE:
IW spoke it last words, and does not look that good:
http://www.gamersnexus.net/component/content/article/47-newsfront1/225-iw-puts-foot-down-last-word


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## GoSuNi (Dec 5, 2008)

Looks like I'm sticking to COD4 then....


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## Zealex (Nov 30, 2008)

I was thinking cod4 wouldn't be too popular once mw2 came out. But with all this crap I think it will still be played. Not really a cod fan but I think I'll play cod4 time to time.


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## Siphis (Dec 27, 2007)

i was accualy planning on heading over to pre-order this game after school. doesn't look like i will do this now.


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

Well I sure missed a lot. No server at all? ONLY matchmaking? This is more then stupidity, this is a real bad business decision. This would ruin MW2 AND Infinity Ward forever, not even a MW2 sequel would cure something like this. This is absolutely unacceptable, I agree with the statement in the link, if we all cancelled our pre-orders, maybe then I.F. would listen to everyone. Maybe we should even just not buy the game at all, then they would be forced to release a patch to give us what we want.


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## RockmasteR (Aug 10, 2007)

that decision really encourages piracy!!
shame on you IW!
Bad Marketing!!


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## JohnUSA (Mar 16, 2009)

I was looking forward to getting the game. I play cod4 alot, and really play on only a couple of servers. My frame rates are fantastic and my ping is low. My understanding is my frame rates and ping will have to be equalized with the other players in mw2. If thats true I might as well have a console system. No thanks.

John


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## McNinja (Jun 22, 2008)

I was thinking of getting this game too. I don't think so now.


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## koala (Mar 27, 2005)

If IW's decision only affects multi-player and not single-player, I bet most people will get a pirate copy rather than spend $60 on a crippled game.


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

JohnUSA said:


> I was looking forward to getting the game. I play cod4 alot, and really play on only a couple of servers. My frame rates are fantastic and my ping is low. My understanding is my frame rates and ping will have to be equalized with the other players in mw2. If thats true I might as well have a console system. No thanks.
> 
> John


....._what_

That makes no sense, you're saying everyone will have the exact same framerate and ping? This is not only impossible... it just won't happen.


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## JohnUSA (Mar 16, 2009)

5NIPER_WOLF said:


> ....._what_
> 
> you're saying everyone will have the exact same framerate and ping?


what?
I didn't see that in my post. 

My understanding of the iwnet is that the players are going to be on an equal playing field with the matchmaker proccess for the most part to make the "game fair." 
Let me ask you this, If my ping is at 10 and my fps is 750 will I get to keep these numbers with a room full of 200 pings and 60fps. If I can then I'll go and pick the game Back up and have fun with it, everybody's a noob the day it comes out!


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## Zealex (Nov 30, 2008)

http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Painkiller
In addition to not getting mw2.
I think that makes the game fair. My friend found that and told me on xfire.
100x3=300!?!?!=unfair?!?!??!


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

JohnUSA said:


> what?
> I didn't see that in my post.
> 
> My understanding of the iwnet is that the players are going to be on an equal playing field with the matchmaker proccess for the most part to make the "game fair."
> Let me ask you this, If my ping is at 10 and my fps is 750 will I get to keep these numbers with a room full of 200 pings and 60fps. If I can then I'll go and pick the game Back up and have fun with it, everybody's a noob the day it comes out!


They won't effect you too much. It's the power of the server itself that matters most.


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## Mart2912 (Aug 12, 2009)

This system is a huge disappointment. COD 4 had a maximum capacity (Non moded) of 64 per server? There is no way anyone will be able to host anything close to that.

Any FPS that does not come with dedicated servers as standard is automatically off my buying list. This type of system works fine on RTS games, but not 64 man FPS games.
Also, doesn’t this mean that the host will have an advantage over others?


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## koala (Mar 27, 2005)

Pros and cons of IWNet: *http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3176593*


> *Pros:*
> 
> * *Matchmaking*: Being able to simply choose some basic settings (deathmatch, team deathmatch, CTF, etc.) and hit one button sure is an easy way to get in and get playing. Infinity Ward promises that matchmaking will get you playing with others of the same skill level, meaning fewer instances of landing in games with tournament-level players who can pick you off with a handgun from a football field away. This should also put you in games that your computer has a strong connection to, so that you don't have to hassle yourself with trying to look for a game with a low ping that will stutter the least because of a bad connection.
> * *Lower Barrier to Entry*: For the hardcore crowd, scrolling through a server browser might seem like a cakewalk. But for a casual gamer who perhaps isn't used to doing this, matchmaking will remove the daunting task of wading through hundreds (if not thousands) of server listings trying to find a game that is playing a certain map with an acceptable ping that isn't full or empty.
> ...


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

The cons obliterate the pros, I see no reason why they can't have dedicated server AND have matchmaking as well. Not a problem to have a party system with everything else. And, they should have a Combat Arms style of servers so that pro-players can play with other pros and newbies can play with other newbies.


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## koala (Mar 27, 2005)

They should give everyone from both sides of the argument an assault rifle and a bag of grenades, put them all in an old abandoned town and let them fight it out. Last man standing wins and gets to decide if dedicated servers are allowed or not. :grin:


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## McNinja (Jun 22, 2008)

We should make them fell like this.


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## koala (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote from *Getting around IWnet and Modern Warfare's lack of dedicated servers* (2 page interview)



> _A: I hear you're already thinking of a way around IWnet, however. What's your idea?_
> 
> f_m: Thinking yes! Will it work? No idea, but I'm hoping so.
> 
> ...


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## Vrait (Apr 6, 2009)

5NIPER_WOLF said:


> The cons obliterate the pros, I see no reason why they can't have dedicated server AND have matchmaking as well. Not a problem to have a party system with everything else. And, they should have a Combat Arms style of servers so that pro-players can play with other pros and newbies can play with other newbies.


MGS4 Online has both Matchmaking and a sever browser. Works fine, IW are seriously idiots.


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## Purechaox (Jun 22, 2009)

wow, I just pre-ordered the game, then read this and this is what IW does....


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## Zealex (Nov 30, 2008)

That is a bummer, can't you cancel the order though?


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

Well maybe someone will release a patch for this.


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

More great stuff from IW... It's like they're terrified of money and success.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/11/pc-modern-warfare-2-its-much-worse-than-you-thought.ars

Oh and this is the how they work out what to answer a question with.


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## GoSuNi (Dec 5, 2008)

I hate Infinity Ward, the true face of an arrogant company.


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

Wow, seriously the ONLY thing the PC version has differently than the console version is a mouse, text chat and graphical adjustments. Thanks IW for making the crappiest sequel in history.


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## Warfare (Jun 21, 2008)

Anyone else hear about the ONLY 9v9 even on PC? 

http://video.ign.com/dor/articles/965543/ign-daily-fix-/videos/thefix_spc_110509.html



Add that to the list of slaps to the face to PC players.. Who wants to only play with 9v9? I honestly like more than that.


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

Yeah it's in the link in my previous post. Considering most clans are consist of > 9 players... Makes you wonder what the heck IW even do when designing games.


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## Floop (Jan 3, 2009)

Yes and one of the devs from IW, said "I play the game great with about 100ms ping".
If he thinks 100 ping is acceptable hes got another thing coming...


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

Heh, he isn't from Australia is he? 'Cause 100 ping on our terrible internet is pretty good over here. :grin:

I honestly can't see many PC gamers buying MW2 now.


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## Zealex (Nov 30, 2008)

Wow 100 ping.....	 I usually got 37-68 in cod4...


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## Tiber Septim (Feb 9, 2006)

100ms is acceptable. It's not that great but it is only 1/10th of a second lag. It's when us Aussies have to connect to US servers and get 500+ ping that things go downhill.


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## McNinja (Jun 22, 2008)

Or when I play with you Tiber and get 1700 ping and I still do well, hooray for my skill in dealing with 1.7 second lag.


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## Floop (Jan 3, 2009)

Mcninjaguy said:


> Or when I play with you Tiber and get 1700 ping and I still do well, hooray for my skill in dealing with 1.7 second lag.


Lol...

"Boom" ......(1second).....(1.7seconds).HEADSHOT"


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## McNinja (Jun 22, 2008)

You should ask Tiber or Indoril about those games. They start lagging really badly too. They only live around 14,000 km's away so no problem with pings............HAHAHAHAHA. Ohh man I was getting decent pings when I was playing CSS once with them. 500 ping isn't too bad for distance and internet speed.


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## Floop (Jan 3, 2009)

Damn mcninja, i feel sorry for you man  You need to experience good ping...


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## McNinja (Jun 22, 2008)

I do get awesome ping while playing in Canada and the US. I usually get around 40 to 150 ping but I was just talking about playing with people in Australia.


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## FreoHeaveho (Aug 22, 2006)

5NIPER_WOLF said:


> Wow, seriously the ONLY thing the PC version has differently than the console version is a mouse, text chat and graphical adjustments. Thanks IW for making the crappiest sequel in history.


Dude have you played it? 

The game works fine. Yes there is a bit of lag, but then the game migrates all players to another server. Rumour has it that there will be a dedicated server patch and besides, in Australia there was always issues with a lack of localised fast servers. 100ms ping is totally acceptable either way. Apart from minor issues with lag (annoying as they are), this game well and truly smashes anything else in the genre.

The graphics are a step up from MW and like all new games there will be glitches. Its great value for money!


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

FreoHeaveho said:


> this game well and truly smashes anything else in the genre.


Wow that's a nice blanket statement. That's your opinion and yours only. You don't speak for everyone who plays FPS's and I'd say considering the ridiculously low user rating the PC version has, not many people agree with you. (I am one of them)


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## FreoHeaveho (Aug 22, 2006)

Lord Sirian said:


> Wow that's a nice blanket statement. That's your opinion and yours only. You don't speak for everyone who plays FPS's and I'd say considering the ridiculously low user rating the PC version has, not many people agree with you. (I am one of them)


Im not going to enter a flaming war, however this forum is for one's personal opinion. Nowhere did I say it was "everyone(s)" opinion. However, considering that "The PC version of Modern Warfare 2 has actually outsold the PC version of Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare in its first week. Making it the most successful PC version," and that it is the "biggest entertainment launch in history," I don't think Im too far off the mark.

This is a new game. Patches for such issues will come. The game (which I own and play) works fine. There is the occassional late night issue when few people are playing, however during peak times, this game works fine, the ping issue is infrequent and IMHO (noted), this is one of the best FPS games made.


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

Infinity Ward have shown no intention of listening to their PC-playing fan base before now, they seem to want to only please the console players. What makes you think they will suddenly start? The main reason the game sold so well is because of the hype that the previous games generated. A user rating of 20% is rather terrible if you ask me. And it gives a good sense of what the PC gamers thought of the game.

If you have not done so already, you might want to take a look at the following thread.

http://www.techsupportforum.com/f219/modern-warfare-2-receives-generally-positive-reviews-but-a-very-low-user-rating-430720.html

Also, the interview found here might prove enlightening about IW's attitude towards PC gamers.


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## FreoHeaveho (Aug 22, 2006)

You tell me im making statements for all when I clearly haven't. 



Lord Sirian said:


> Wow that's a nice blanket statement. That's your opinion and yours only. You don't speak for everyone who plays FPS's and I'd say considering the ridiculously low user rating the PC version has, not many people agree with you. (I am one of them)





Lord Sirian said:


> I think that's mostly because Console players buy it. They don't understand what a good game is, so they just buy the game because it's stupidly over-hyped and part of the most unwarrantedly-overhyped series of all time.


quoted from

http://www.techsupportforum.com/f21...eviews-but-a-very-low-user-rating-430720.html

how hypocrytical. 

You obviously hate the game, and your opinion is noted throughout the forum. However, and this is the funny bit, you have never played it. At the end of the day, you haven't played it so, with respect, your opinion cannot count for much.

Secondly. if you believe user ratings, then you are similar to those on Newegg who rate some PSUs highly - like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182160 which recieved a rating of 82% excellent or good, regardless of it being a POS. Simply put, user ratings say very little, because they attract group think. I own the game, the COD franchise is huge and there are many (more than ever) players. You seem to have an axe to grind here mate... :4-dontkno

Anyway, if you don't like it don't buy it. But IMHO, you are mssing out on a great game.


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

:sigh: So much for not wanting to enter a flamewar. I have made no comments or inferences as to your personality or character, yet here you are calling me a hypocrite. If you could refrain from such things in future I would be awfully grateful.

I do not hate the game as such. I hate what it represents (a dead end) and most of all I hate Infinity Ward. I notice you neatly managed to sidestep talking about the parts of my argument that were actually the most relevant, like IW's attitude towards PC gamers. And actually, given that I haven't played it and I'm _not_ a fan of the series, then I would think that my opinion would count for just as much as yours, as my opinion would not be coloured by my personal experiences in-game, and thus, I would be more likely to read reviews fully and look at the pros and cons from an outsider's perspective.

Yes some reviews and ratings are inaccurate but given what IW has actually done to cripple this game, especially with respect to the multiplayer, (which, I would remind you, is what a lot of people are after from the CoD series) then there is a lot of evidence to point towards the low rating being accurate. _Especially given the hype that surrounds this series and indeed the game._

If you read the comparison chart in the OP of this thread, you will most probably see that CoD 4's multiplayer beats MW2's in almost every aspect that is important to the majority of PC gamers.


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## FreoHeaveho (Aug 22, 2006)

Im not flaming simply because I have a differing opinion.

Hypocracy is hypocracy.

How can you have an opinion about something you have never experienced particuarly when it has to do with the gameplay? You claim to get your views from reviews that you admit can be flawed? Your logic seems dodgy here mate. This is not a point scoring exercise. You are making extremely strong opinions about something you have no experience in.

I don't want to argue for the sake of it. I think in time you will see this is one the best games ever. My opinion only, if you weren't sure. :heartlove


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

Hypocrisy is spelt with an "is" not an "ac". :smile:

I can formulate opinions based on what I've read/others have told me. Trust me, I have read countless hours worth of reviews on the game (which, yes, can be biased.) But if you read a large number, the opinion of the majority _will_ be heard. I think I have a pretty good idea of what it's like, even without playing it.

Anyway, as we seem to be getting nowhere, I think it'd be best if the conversation stopped here. It would be nice to have a civilised debate but I feel that any discussion on such a controversial topic (and obviously one which inspires such passion) would dissolve quickly into mindless flaming.


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## Tiber Septim (Feb 9, 2006)

Lord Sirian said:


> Anyway, as we seem to be getting nowhere, I think it'd be best if the conversation stopped here.


Probably for the best. You both have you're opinions an you're both entitled to them.
Not everyone is going to like the same things and there's no point arguing about it.


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## FreoHeaveho (Aug 22, 2006)

Just because I disagree, doen't mean i am flaming. I made a simple opnion about a game i own, and play. You claimed I was speaking for all. Not true.

This is a debate thread. There is no technical issue here. So debate is fine. You cannot simply disregard an opinion because it isn't in line with yours.

My personal opinion is that if you are to make an opinion, it is best based on personal experience, not hearsay and dubious reviews online. I play the game, yes it has its issues, but essentially it is a great game.

*posted after previous*


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## Mart2912 (Aug 12, 2009)

To be honest, im sort of in the middle to wheather I think the game will be good or not. No doubt I will have fun playing the game online but there is a few things which bothers me:

1) Obviously there are no dedicated servers (Although if that rumor of a patch with DS proves to be true, it may convince me). No need to get into this, I'm sure we all know what benefits they have to offer.

2) The fact that MW2 is pretty much a direct port from the 360 worries me.

These two reasons alone are enough to put me off, despite the fact I am interested (I missed out on COD 4, thinking I will catch the later bus).
Some people say they have aweful ping and see lots of cheaters while others are having a good experience and next to no problems. 
IW said their system would prevent cheaters, but that couldn’t be any further from the truth. Sure, they can patch the game, but the cheaters will find a way around it.

I have seen/read quite a few of reviews and it seems the most popular sites such as gametrailers.com (The people who gave COD 4 best graphics of the year when Crysis was released) praise it highly. In all honesty the only real way I will ever know is if I play the game myself.

Due to these reasons I won't be purchasing the game, at least not yet anyway.


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## dwalk1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

In IW's defense, the PC version and console versions are virtually identical. So technically they aren't shafting PC gamers at all.

And I'm 99% positive that it is in their interest to release dedicated servers (which is the primary source of hate for the game) eventually because dedicated servers are BUILT into the loader for the game. I don't advocate pirating games at all, but it does interest me and it is common knowledge to hackers that it's built into the game.

When it is integrated into the game all of this controversy will have been for nothing.


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## FreoHeaveho (Aug 22, 2006)

dwalk1989 said:


> When it is integrated into the game all of this controversy will have been for nothing.


exactly.


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

No, IW will never integrate anything into the game. It's going to be crap forever until someone releases a cracked versions of it to make it available to the Mod community. if they do then I'll eat my hat but they show no intention of doing so.

The multiplayer is still bunk, I will never buy the game, yes i have played it at a friend's house. Single Player is great even if I haven't beat it. I mentioned in another thread they should have released the multiplayer separate and free (like Wolfenstien Enemy Territory or Half Life 2 Deathmatch).


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

dwalk1989 said:


> In IW's defense, the PC version and console versions are virtually identical. So technically they aren't shafting PC gamers at all.


Uhhhh. Not to call you a liar or anything, but this is the very thing that has angered most PC gamers. We don't use a PC so that we can play a console game...

I played CoD4 and found it decent, but largely undeserving of the ridiculous praise it got. The Single player was for the most part, quite good, the multiplayer was a bit.. well it was ok but I certainly wouldn't go on about it like most people do. Given that I didn't find CoD4 all that great, and given what I've read/heard about MW2, I honestly find myself just as angry as the rest of the PC gamers. If we wanted to play on a console we would do so.



dwalk1989 said:


> And I'm 99% positive that it is in their interest to release dedicated servers (which is the primary source of hate for the game) eventually because dedicated servers are BUILT into the loader for the game. I don't advocate pirating games at all, but it does interest me and it is common knowledge to hackers that it's built into the game.
> 
> When it is integrated into the game all of this controversy will have been for nothing.


I have to say that while dedicated servers are a part of the problem, they are by no means the only one. So even if IW miraculously come to their senses and give PC gamers dedicated servers, they still won't be happy.


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## HardwareGuruMan (Oct 15, 2009)

I disagree, the game is great. I play it a lot. During peak times when there are a lot of players, it gets on servers quickly and efficiently. This is a storm in a teacup and to be honest the uproar is becoming a little pathetic IMHO.


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, the problem lays with the people who enjoy the game vs. the naysayers. The game is released the way it is, we can't do a damn thing about it. Oh well, let's move on with our lives, some people will like the game and some people will not and it does not matter why they think this way. End of story.


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## dwalk1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

Lord Sirian said:


> Uhhhh. Not to call you a liar or anything, but this is the very thing that has angered most PC gamers. We don't use a PC so that we can play a console game...


Well I'm obviously not lying, all versions, be it Xbox 360/PS3/PC, have the same functionality: campaign, spec ops, and online play over IW's network. You're right though in saying that the PC version could be expected to have MORE functionality, such as dedicated servers with much larger scale battles and such. But in the end, the PC is still a gaming platform and technically the Xbox 360 and PS3 are just as capable of supporting those things, given that most of the hate comes from PC gamers and not console gamers.



Lord Sirian said:


> I played CoD4 and found it decent, but largely undeserving of the ridiculous praise it got. The Single player was for the most part, quite good, the multiplayer was a bit.. well it was ok but I certainly wouldn't go on about it like most people do. Given that I didn't find CoD4 all that great, and given what I've read/heard about MW2, I honestly find myself just as angry as the rest of the PC gamers. If we wanted to play on a console we would do so.


I agree, I didn't think Modern Warfare was that great either. I bought it for the 360 because that was my primary source of gaming at the time and it didn't even sway me away from Halo 3 for more than maybe a week. I should have rented it.



Lord Sirian said:


> I have to say that while dedicated servers are a part of the problem, they are by no means the only one. So even if IW miraculously come to their senses and give PC gamers dedicated servers, they still won't be happy.


Dedicated servers are the primary reason and if any PC gamer tells you otherwise it is probably because they downloaded a pirated version of the game and desperately want to play the multiplayer without having to pay for it while still having something to support their argument. Yeah, console commands are neat, but do they really make or break the gameplay? Not at all. Profanity filters? Come on.

You get my point.


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

None of those things on their own are game breakers, but add them all up and you do get a seriously broken game. For one thing, even not counting the no dedicated servers issue, there is NO WAY to kick/ban cheaters from the game, it is all left up to VAC, which does not operate on an instant ban/kick basis, it will often watch a cheater for up to a month or more before it takes action.

There are so many things wrong with the game (specifically the multiplayer) that if IW do come to their senses, it's going to take a mighty big patch to fix them all.

Also, for most PC gamers, there is nothing more insulting than a PC game being released when it is just a straight port of the Xbox version. The PC game has a whole 3! More "features" if you can even call them that, than the console game. It has mouse control (oh wow big deal there), adjustable graphics settings (huge "feature" right there, not like EVERY other game has adjustable graphics settings... no), oh and lest we forget, IW very kindly (cough) added _text chat in game_! How very generous! Wow I can see why PC gamers would want to play this game........... Wait.. no I don't...


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## dwalk1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

I've never played the console version. If you're on Xbox Live, are you able to talk to your team? Because I read something that even for the PC version using programs like ventrilo would be considered breaking the rules (even though they would have no way of knowing).

I could be making this up, idk.


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## Origin (Jul 13, 2008)

XBox users are getting account suspensions and bans from the entire XBox Live service for cheating/glitching on MW2.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/12/microsoft-difference-between-cheat-exploit-none-banned.ars


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## HardwareGuruMan (Oct 15, 2009)

Seriously, Lord, I couldn't careless about the issues you claim makes that a "seriously broken game". I have been playing the game extensively, and you know what it works fine. The graphics look great, it loads up and plays well, i am yet to see anyone cheat (and I am a well versed FPS player who would probably notice). Again, I am not sure you know what you are talking about since you don't own the game and your experience amounts to "i played it a at a friends house". pff

Im a PC gamer, and I can tell you I am not insulted by the game in anyway. What a laughable notion. To be honest, as a mentor you seem to be too hot headed and talk about things that you cannot really know about...


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## Floop (Jan 3, 2009)

Everyone has their opinion on the game, @dwalk1989 if you think the game is great then you have the right to think that.
As well as Lord Sirian has the right to think the game isn't great.


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## GoSuNi (Dec 5, 2008)

Anyone has the right to say that other people's opinion may be wrong or right. But, typing it out loud isn't respectful.


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## -WOLF- (Jan 17, 2009)

Then how else will you voice yourself?


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## GoSuNi (Dec 5, 2008)

You can't! It's not democracy, it's communism! :4-thatsba


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## Lord Sirian (Jan 14, 2007)

To any who saw my previous post and were offended. I am sorry.


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## Indoril Nerevar (Jan 7, 2006)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone is entitled to voice that opinion. However, those opinions should be voiced in respectful ways. My advice to _everyone_ here: if you can't express your opinion without also insulting people, then don't post.


I think this discussion has run out of content. Time for it to end.

Thread closed.


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