# Electrical Panel Spark



## Solidify

I replaced an electrical outlet at my place and when I turned the breaker for that circuit back on, the entire left side hot line sparked on the inside of the panel. However, everything still works, including the breaker that I was working on.

What's all that about? Should I be alarmed? Does does this indicate a failing breaker?


MPR, go ahead... I'm waiting for the "I told you so."


----------



## MPR

You should never see a shower of sparks when doing any electrical work. You may have had a short-circuit, temporary if it didn't trip the breaker. You probably should turn that breaker off and have the circuit checked by an electrician.


----------



## Solidify

> You may have had a short-circuit, temporary if it didn't trip the breaker.


I'm trying to save money here (within reason of killing myself) so I'd like to try resetting the breaker (off then back on) first to see if it sparks again. Because if it was a temporary short-circuit, I don't want to pay an electrician who knows what to come and tell me that. 

Would that be OK?


----------



## Basementgeek

I assume you did not have the panel cover off.

My first guess if you saw it from the outside, cover on, you got a breaker going bad.
(Its contacts are pitted)

Yes it will not hurt to cycle it off/on

BG


----------



## Tomken15

Those were my thoughts and replacing the breaker would be a good first step.

You can often see this on low quality wall sockets when you switch an appliance off.


----------



## Solidify

I tried resetting the breaker a couple of hours ago. Turning it on resulting in the same spark as earlier, only this time, the spark make my entire house lose electricity. I called a friend that's an electrician and he took a look. He turned off the breaker, then put it back on again and he saw the spark again and it turned off the whole house's power again. He was in shock at how bad the wiring had been done, and it wasn't done to code by the person that installed the panel years ago. 

So now chances are good that the entire panel needs to be replaced and the breakers need to be sub-divided from scratch, which is very good, but geez, going to be expensive!


----------



## Basementgeek

Ouch ! $$$$$

BG


----------



## kendallt

Do Canadian regulations allow the electrical to be run by non-licensed people? 
Some places allow the owner to install everything, you just need an inspection before it can be connected to the mains. 
Other places simply require a licensed electrician to be 'in charge', the actual work can be completed by anyone as long as a licensed electrician signs off on it.
If your friend s willing to sign off on the work (after inspecting it of course, his name will be on it!) you could save a great deal of money.


----------



## Basementgeek

I have seen worse looking and still pass

BG


----------



## MPR

If a breaker being turned on causes the electricity to go off for the entire house then that breaker has failed and there also may be damage at the breaker box, not to mention that the short in the circuit that caused the breaker to originally trip is still there. I've had a couple of years formal training with electricity and have been wiring new construction and working with old constriction for years. Even if I were up there at your place, it would take me some time to sort out that mess and determine the proximate problem and whether any more damage had been done. I'm glad that you called someone in. As for cost, if the bus bar is melted, a breaker box is going to run well over a thousand dollars installed and additional cost will accrue to fix the original short circuit. 

Edit: glad to see that an electrician is coming in -- keep us posted.


----------



## Solidify

> Some places allow the owner to install everything, you just need an inspection before it can be connected to the mains.


Same here.



> If your friend s willing to sign off on the work (after inspecting it of course, his name will be on it!) you could save a great deal of money.


You're implying I'd be doing the work?! And even then, he can't sign it off for me because he's an apprentice electrician; only master electricians can work with panels, as far as I'm concerned.



> No offense, but you are getting in way over your head here. Call an electrician.


None taken. I know I've tried to do too much. An electrician is coming tomorrow to assess the damage.


----------



## Tomken15

Perhaps you should have another look at that electrical outlet that you have replaced - a stray wire strand out of place or you haven't secured the terminals properly or any equipment that breaker services - but it would seem that all is not as it should be inside the breaker box either.


----------



## SABL

If this is a multi-family building I doubt Solidify will be able to pull an 'owner's permit'. 

Remove the outlet you replaced and either tape or put a wire nut on the black wire. Retry the breaker and see what happens. If it doesn't arc (spark) and the breaker stays on, turn the breaker off and try to install the outlet once again. Black wire/s on bronze screw/s and white wire/s on silver screw/s.....the ground will go to a green screw that often has a hexagonal head with a slot. Make sure the ground is tucked away in the back of the box and the wires are 'folded' and neatly tucked inside the box. You don't just cram the wires inside.....and the ground should not be near any of the side screws on the outlet. If the breaker arcs again you have a problem downstream of the outlet you replaced.

Make sure none of the insulating jacket has been nicked or cut on the wires in the box where you replaced the outlet......especially the black wire!!


----------



## Solidify

I'm afraid to touch anything at this point. The electrician will be here shortly and I'll mention to him which outlets I've replace (maybe he will look at those too and find something I did wrong).


----------



## SABL

Hope he knows what he's doing.......:laugh:

My son called an electrician (same company that installed the wiring....he bought the house new) due to power surges and after the electrician couldn't figure it out was told to call the power company. The guy from the power co didn't have any kind words to say about the electrician.....the installers didn't lug down the neutral in the meter base. Serious problem (if you understand electric) but an easy fix. When you lose the main neutral the circiuts being used will back-feed each other.......you get 220VAC where you should only have 110VAC.

My son lost a few appliances........TV and furnace controls.


----------



## SABL

Good time to ask questions!! Maybe he'll be informative.....never know.


----------



## Tomken15

Perhaps your son could claim against the electrician's Liability insurance - if he had any ?


----------



## SABL

Tomken15 said:


> Perhaps your son could claim against the electrician's Liability insurance - if he had any ?


I think his insurance covered it.....it was years ago. Electrician was/is licensed and bonded. Can't pull a permit if not......I've pulled permits as a home-owner.

Power company lugs in their side on the final install (when they set the meter).....you would think they would check all lugs in the meter base.


----------



## Solidify

I'm sure he knows his stuff. He did my dad's basement. Hes a master electrician/contractor.


----------



## Solidify

So I'm back and here's the scoop.

This is a triplex. So us (the landlord) and 3 tenants. Which means 4 separate panels, all of which need to be replaced. The big tubes that contain the electrical wires fed from the electrical poles on the outside were compromised. They had been caulked all around the joints because the previous owner (according the electrician) must have realized that they were letting water in. So the water kept coming in through those tubes over the years and made its way to the boxes. Final summation, major water damage. 

The job is scheduled for next weekend. Two full days (maybe 1 1/2) without electricity, and it needs to be on days that it doesn't rain since the electrician needs to do work outside on the lines.

opcorn:


----------



## Tomken15

So you hadn't broken it with your own DIY after all :grin:


----------



## bruiser

Seems to me it should be the propery owners responsibility to pay for all repairs.

This will also thaw out your refrig. You'll be able to check the drain.


----------



## Solidify

Tomken15 said:


> So you hadn't broken it with your own DIY after all :grin:


You have no idea how happy that makes me. I was seriously considering never touching anything at all every again (not only electrical). I was so ashamed. And then this.. 



> Seems to me it should be the property owners responsibility to pay for all repairs.


I am the property owner (landlord). 



> This will also thaw out your refrig. You'll be able to check the drain.


Haha yes, I supposed so. Thanks for reminding me how many problems my home has...


----------



## Tomken15

I was just wondering...if you have sheet rock for walls - do you still live in caves in Quebec :wink::grin:


----------



## SABL

Tomken15 said:


> I was just wondering...if you have sheet rock for walls - do you still live in caves in Quebec :wink::grin:


Everything over here is sheet rock......I haven't seen plaster for ages. Last job I worked on that had any plaster was 1975. 

Good luck on the electric, Solidify. I would get a 2nd opinion......'duct seal' is a common product that's used to seal conduit. It doesn't mean anything was being covered up. 

The work is being done on the weekend?? This sounds like a side job to me. If the contractor can't furnish a valid permit I'd back out of the deal. No permit....no contract!!


----------



## Solidify

> I would get a 2nd opinion......


A second electrician is coming to have a look soon.

Here's so photos for you all:


----------



## Solidify

A few more...


----------



## SABL

Ok.....the meter bases show some surface rust. That is to be expected. Exactly how did any moisture compromise your service and cause the issue with the replacement of a few outlets??


----------



## Solidify

It's not the outlets that need to be replaced, it's the panels.

I was just replacing some outlets earlier this week because they were chipped through wear which caused the ground prong to be loose. That doesn't have anything to do with what happened here in this thread though.


----------



## SABL

Big difference between panels and your service.....you are showing your service in the pics. How have the panels been compromised??


----------



## Solidify

You see those big white tubes? Inside those tubes are the electrical wires that comes from the cities lines and go into our home. Once inside my home, those wires connect to my electrical panels. Because water infiltrated those tubes, it made its way to my panels.


----------



## Tomken15

Is there a Demarcation point between what is your responsibility and the power company's - as to service those conduits, the Leccy would have to isolate at the pole - wouldn't he ?


----------



## bruiser

The tubes are known as conduit. It does look as if there was some patchwork done.


----------



## MPR

It looks like water can get in via at least one of those junction covers -- it doesn't appear to be sealed well. Unfortunately, those are past the meter and thus the homeowner's responsibility, unless you can prove that the meter is where the water was coming in. Have the electrical company come out and check those meter boxes for moisture. However, if they find that the water is coming into the conduit above the meter they also may not accept responsibility as this too may be considered the landlord's property.

One major US power company's information that I looked at makes it appear that they are only responsible for service equipment that doesn't' touch the building's walls, except for the meter box itself. I know that anything past the pole is our responsibility out here, but the meter is at the pole in the alley too.


----------



## Solidify

> Is there a Demarcation point between what is your responsibility and the power company's - as to service those conduits, the Leccy would have to isolate at the pole - wouldn't he ?


Yes. He calls the hydro company, they come and close our power so he can do his work. Once he's done, they return to inspect his work (which must be done by a master electrician/contractor certified under our privincial association of master electricians) and then they turn it back on if all checks out. 

The hydro company charges us 50$ for each time they need to come (so 100$ for the job). But electricians usually take that into consideration when quoting clients (since the electrician is the one that pays the hydro company).



> Have the electrical company come out and check those meter boxes for moisture. However, if they find that the water is coming into the conduit above the meter they also may not accept responsibility as this too may be considered the landlord's property.


So there's no point of having them send someone to just dig a hole in my pocket then.. either way I look at it, the hydro company will try to get off clean.


----------



## SABL

I know what's inside those 'white tubes'.

I see one distorted cover on an 'LB'.....known as a 'pulling ell'. They are used when a tight 'bend' is needed......to keep the conduit close the the wall. 

You know what you have better than I do.....I'm not there to see it for myself. It's better to have an electrician make sure everything is right......electric is nothing to play with. 

Still not seeing evidence of water damage regarding the panels.....but the covers will need to be removed to verify the fact. The breaker panel you show in the pics is bottom fed (it's upside down)......any moisture will lie in the bottom. 

Are you calling the disconnects panels?? Those are the 3 boxes on the left of your breaker panel.....I do see what looks like water spots where the plywood rests on the conduit. Those boxes need to be closely inspected for water damage. 

Exactly what is being replaced??


----------



## Solidify

Yes, I call the main disconnects "panels". I don't know the proper terminology sorry. 

Like I mentionned, were replacibg all 4 boxes (disconnects) and clamping the black cable on the outside of the house that was improperly secured with tabe (refer to photo of my backyard).


----------



## SABL

How ya doin' on this?? I would love to see some pics of the insides of the boxes.


----------



## Solidify

I'm not comfortable opening the boxes. If I'm not working this weekend when they will do the work, I'll take some photos for you.

But it was just burnt wires (all black) and rust all over the bottom of the disconnect box (water).


----------



## Solidify

Here's an update on the job. 

The electrician was here yesterday and is coming back to replace the 3 remaining disconnect boxes for my 3 tenants. Pictures can be found below as well as in subsequent posts.

You should be able to tell which is the old panel because of the rust at the bottom.


----------



## Solidify

Almost 14 hours later, I'm dead because the ******* was making me help him and his apprentice electrician while working. But here's the finished product. It was a hell of a job!


----------



## MPR

Did you seal the conduit and/or install breathers and drains so you won't have the water problem anymore?

See the section on Drains (Canada electrical code is pretty much the same as US code).

http://www.coopercrouse-hinds.eu/download/1/Crouse-Hinds_Code_Digest_2011.pdf


----------



## Solidify

Yes. They made holes here so that the water leaks out.. And they also but some electrical putty all over the tubing joints. They did a really good job considering how difficult it was to work with what they had to work with (everything was mess and we were just finding one complication after another). Thank God my tenants didn't start nagging about not having power for 9 hours.


----------



## Solidify

If a mod warrants a new thread for the following, so be it, but I wanted to save some room.

Anyhow, I've been selling those old Sylvania Commander breakers from the old electrical panel that we removed. Someone called me back today 15 minutes after picking some up and said that one of them that I gave him wasn't _good_. He said that one of the 15Amp double breakers I gave him wasn't really a 15Amp double but merely two 15A singles that were put together. In other words, he didn't consider that to code (and I can't blame it, it doesn't like it's to code), but some of these breakers were installed a while ago and also some come from my dad's old panel at his place as well. Anyhow, I told him to bring it back and I'm going to swap it for a real 15A double (which you can clearly see is manufacturer together). 

I told my dad about this and he said to try to initial the breakers before you sell them or try to find a way to test that they work because some people may bring you back their broken ones without you knowing it. Considering it isn't ideal to label something that's black, I'd like to know if there is a way to test whether the breakers work in front of the buyer (ie: with a multimeter). All the videos online only show how to test them for continuity whilst they are still fastened to the electrical panel. All of my breakers are in a box and have been removed from the panel.


----------



## Basementgeek

Just use a volt/ohm meter. No good way to test them. 

BG


----------



## Solidify

Damn, I don't have one of those. Only the pen tester I bought recently. Any other way I can make sure I don't get ripped off by buyers?


----------



## Basementgeek

Can't think of any other good way.

DVOM (Digital volt-ohm meter) are not too expensive. You can probably find them under
$20.00. Down here where I live brought them as cheap $3.00 on sale, at Harbor Freight.

BG


----------



## Solidify

Will this work, I have this:
Vintage Square D Wiggy Voltage Tester Model 6610 VT-1


----------



## Basementgeek

Here are some under $10.00 USD

Multimeters - Buy Best Multimeter for Sale at Tmart.com

I have bought from Tmart 3-4 times.

BG


----------



## Basementgeek

No, the one you showed me is a voltage tester. Only works with voltage, not ohms.
Ohms is resistance.

BG


----------



## kendallt

Just mark them. 
That way you know they are the same ones you sold, if they come back give them the money back. nothing gained nothing lost. 
If they bring back something that isn't marked, you know it's not yours, and can argue the point.
I used to always put three slashes on my stuff ( /// ) in an easy to miss location,take a photo etc, then if they claimed I sold them something 'bad' the slashes would tell me whether t was what I sold them or not. 
Many used parts stores etc sell parts with colored paint spots, the spot color matches the date on the receipt. if 11/23/12 was red, and you bring in an 11/23/12 receipt with a green spot, something is wrong.

Edit: Many dual breakers (220v here) are nothing more than 2 110v breakers screwed together with a tie bar between the levers. They will almost always be marked as 'common trip' 
In one of my 'junk boxes' I have several kits to tie breakers together. They have a small plastic spindle that goes between the levers, a screw and nut to lock them, and three others to tie the bodies together


----------



## Solidify

Kendalt, it's kind of hard to mark a black breaker (even with slashes). And either way, I would like to be able to show the breakers are working with the multimeter in front of them before they pay for it. 

alot of the 2 pole breakers that im selling are like that, and by that i mean simply held together by that tie bar between the levers, like this:










which worked for when they were in use but someone that bought them told me that that isnt the right way to have dual pole breakers, they need to be made as 2 poles (you cant just put to singles together with that tie bar on the switches)


----------



## SABL

Auto parts stores sell paint pens......I use them to mark parts or settings when removing distributors.

You are showing a 2-pole breaker. Unless the unit splits into 2 complete single units it is as it should be. Most 2-pole breakers look like the one you are showing......but some do have a single handle.


----------



## SABL

Both of these are 2-pole breakers.


----------



## Basementgeek

Just how much are you getting for them ? I don't think I would buy a used breaker. The more they have been tripped/used as a switch the less they are worth, to me.

BG


----------



## SABL

Basementgeek said:


> Just how much are you getting for them ? I don't think I would buy a used breaker. The more they have been tripped/used as a switch the less they are worth, to me.
> 
> BG


They do wear out with over-use and constant tripping. When I was trimming houses the electrician kept using the same temp breakers......darned things wouldn't even carry half the amps.


----------



## Basementgeek

Amen of the load carrying ability, hence never buy used ones.

BG


----------



## Solidify

Well I'm not worried about that since I'm not the one buying them. I just post them on a classifieds ad website for 10$ for the doubles and 5$ for the single poles and people eat it up lol

Watch this please SABL (for your last comment):

'Real' 2 pole Circuit Breakers - YouTube


----------



## SABL

The metal interlocks are old style and common. These devices are universal and have the holes over the breaker rating. The metal piece is also stamped "Field Installed" to indicate that 2 single pole breakers have been tied together to create a 2-pole breaker. They're legit as far as I know but the newer ones are non-metalic.


----------



## Solidify

Some guy is coming back tonight to return the 'old style' 2 pole breaker for another 2 pole that is manufactured as a 2 pole together. Is this grounds for asking for a switch? The reason I ask is because you say



> They're legit as far as I know but the newer ones are non-metalic.


So if they're legit, I can say that they're still 2 pole breakers and the purchase is final, regardless of whether he wants one that is made togeher right?

And yes, ive seen the new ones, they are sometimes white and there is only one switch that controls the entire doubel or triple breakers, that's how they are on my new Square D panel


----------



## SABL

They are still considered as 2-pole breakers when the interlock is used. The interlock makes sure that both breakers trip when either side is overloaded. 

You have 3-pole breakers?? What are you running that's 3-phase??


----------



## Solidify

I don't have any 3 pole haha! I was just using an example. 

But that's what I told the guy that's returning tonight and he said that even with the interlock, it's not a sure bet that both singles will trip simultaneously. And technically, he has a point.. look at the video and you can see that the interlock was loose already. I could have taken it off and put it back. 

What kind of tool puts those interlocks on the breaker anyhow?


----------



## Solidify

I found some useful information about the common trip metal bracket holding single pole breakers together to act as a double or even triple pole breaker:



> Handle ties on single pole breakers make them into common disconnect devices, but *do not* make them common trip devices. When an independent breaker trips because of a power surge, however, the breakers it's tied to do not trip with it. This can be hazardous if someone working on the system doesn't realize that the others haven't tripped and approaches it as if a common trip had turned everything off.If you only need a common disconnect, then "approved" handle ties are fine. If you need a common trip, you must replace the breakers.


----------



## Solidify

An update to this thread:

My electrician had to come to fix something again today, even with the new panel. I was replacing an old broken countertop outlet. I took the old one out, marked down how the wires were connected and then tossed it. Took my new outlet and wired up everything accordingly, making sure the ground wire did not make contact with any other wires while fastening it into the junction box. I went back to my panel, turned the breaker for that outlet back on and BAM!, panel sparked again and power for entire building went off (200A panel). 

When the electrician arrived, he told me that the reason it sparked at the panel and everything went off (and also the reason why I have no problems when I replace other outlets) and also the reason why the first time this spark occurred, when I was changing another kitchen countertop outlet (which led us to change the whole panel) was that coutertop outlets have a red wire and a black wire on one side, something normal outlets don't have. When I was putting the new outlets back in, I never knew that I had break off this piece of metal (in red below):


----------



## SABL

That little tab provides for using two circuits on one outlet......or for making a switched outlet while leaving one plug hot at all times. Known as a 'split receptacle'. I have them in my house......mainly in the bedrooms for switching a table lamp on/off. Not seeing any reason for a switched receptacle in the kitchen.......possibly 2 circuits were called for but I would really think that the electrician was feeding 2 circuits on one cable......very common and saves running extra cable. The problem you had is that 2 separate legs were use out of the panel......dead short that involves 220VAC. 

Don't snap that tab (the one pictured).....it's the neutral side. Neutral side has silver screws and the hot side has brass colored screws. Also, notice the size of the plug prongs.....the neutral is bigger. The hot side needs to be split. Splitting the neutral side will cause loss of neutral on the downstream run......depending on how the wires are twisted together in the box. The only time the neutral is split is if you have 2 separate neutrals in the box.


----------



## Solidify

Yes, I meant to circle the other side in the picture but the hot side did not show much in the photo.


----------



## Basementgeek

In the newer USA houses, red is only used for 220V wire. Usually 10ga or bigger.

220V outlets are different than 110 V ones.

Just an FYI. Things may be different in Canada.

BG


----------



## SABL

Red only indicates the wire is 'hot'. Most commonly used residential circuitry can involve the use of 3 wire cable.....ie. 14-3/W ground. It only means the wire is hot and not indicative of 220VAC. You will find a red wire in 3-pole and 4-pole switch applications where 220VAC is not a factor......the extra wire has the potential to be hot and is marked with a color to indicate the fact. It may not be hot at all times but still has the potential.......the black and red wires in a multiple switch controlled lighting circuit are known as 'travellers'. The current is switched between the two wires to allow the current to travel. Only 1 will be hot at any given time. 

In the case of split receptacles, the line coming into the switch will only be a 2 conductor cable......but the line going out will be 3 conductor. The installer makes the connection as with any multiple deviced circuit and ties the black wires together to continue the outlets that will always be hot......but adds a pigtail at the first connection point to feed the switch that controls the part-time plug (1/2 of the duplex outlet). From there, the red wire goes to the load side of the switch and feeds the part-time side of the duplex receptacles.

Red does not always mean 220VAC but it's a pretty good indicater.....treat the circuit as if it is 220VAC until confirmation is made of the exact voltage. As with any high voltage, caution must be used and it's best to work on any wiring with the power turned off. In some cases even the white (neutral) wire can hurt you if the circuit is live........I've gotten a few shocks in my learning process......:laugh:.


----------



## Wrench97

Keep in mind that in North America 220v is made up of 2, 110v "legs" where in the UK/Europe each leg is 220w.

Green or bare wires are ground, white is neutral, any other color is hot.
If used as a traveler in a switch the white wire should be taped black or a color to signify voltage is present.


----------



## Solidify

For the last 3 posts, no idea what you guys are talking about lol


----------



## Basementgeek

I did forgot about 3 way switches :>( 

BG


----------



## Solidify

I think I may have replaced a 3 way outlet this past week. It has two white wires on one side as opposed to the usual one white wire on one side.


----------



## Wrench97

No such thing as a 3 way outlet, a 3 way switch is more then one switch that controls the same light. Usually found in a hall or living room where you need to turn it off/on from either end of the room.

The duplex outlet may be one that is divided with the top switched and the bottom hot all the time?


----------



## SABL

2 white wires is common......the device (outlet) is feeding a downstream device. There should also be 2 black wires in the same box.


----------



## Solidify

If you're looking at it with the ground hole on top (upside down smiley face), it had 2 white wires on the left side of the outlet (1 white wire on each screw) and one wire on the right side alone (can't remember which colour that wire was, black or white).


----------



## SABL

The other wire will be black.....was it pigtailed??


----------



## Wrench97

If both white wires were on the same side then I would think something is wired wrong, there not a good reason to run a neutral somewhere without a hot wire.

It could be a switched wire but should be on the black side (gold screws) and would have the tab broken off between the screws(see the image) to separate them and be taped to tell you it has current in it.
Look in the box and make sure there is not a black wire in there that fell off or was disconnected.


----------



## Solidify

Nevermind this, I don't remember the outlet well enough to pinpoint what coloured wire was there. I'll just have the electrician make sure I did it right when he comes this weekend to install our new convectors.


----------



## Wrench97

What is a convector?


----------



## SABL

A pigtail is a way of ensuring downstream connections are intact....you do not rely on the device to complete the circuit. A pigtail is a short wire twisted in with the main run and only feeds the device....the device does dictate if the circuit is viable.

Your neutral (2 wires on one side) completes the circuit.....if the tab (as noticed earlier) is broken you lose the downstream side. In some cases a 'feed through' is not allowed and all devices will need to be pigtailed to maintain integrity of the circuit.....mostly applies to commercial wiring.


----------



## Solidify

Wrench97 said:


> What is a convector?


STELPRO - 2,000-W ELECTRONIC CONVECTOR | Réno-Dépôt


----------



## Wrench97

Ah Canadian for electric heat


----------



## Solidify

Lmao, what do you guys call it down there in that U, S and A


----------



## Basementgeek

My last house had an electric forced air furnace.

BG


----------



## Solidify

Not familiar with that BG.


----------



## Basementgeek

Very common around here. Heat pump and electric furnace. 

BG


----------



## SABL

Down here it's called 'resistance heat'........same principle as an electric toaster or dryer. Electric coils in the furnace heat the house by means of forced air.....that's what I have. My neighbor has baseboard heat.

I'm still contemplating gas heat.......but, I will have to vent the new furnace for exhaust gas. 2 advantages of electric heat......but it does cost more. No CO (carbon monoxide) to worry about and no gas bill.


----------



## Basementgeek

No CO? Unless your electric comes a nuclear power plant there is CO.

Solidify: Those electric heaters are fine if that is what is used/available in your area. Down side to electric heat and gas, it dries the air too much. The less humidy you have the cooler you feel. 

BG


----------



## kendallt

I believe he means 'no Co from the heater in the house'. The only thing you can do about electric company produced Co is reduce your usage. 
Pretty much any heat source dries out the air, the only ones that don't are non-vented natural gas or propane.


----------



## SABL

That's what I meant......no CO in the house. 'CO check' is a common call for fire departments....keeps the ladder companies busy. 

My father had a humidifier in his house......real pita at times. The way the g-kids waste water (and empty the 120gal water heater) when taking baths I don't need a humidifier.......cooking also helps. If you have a free-standing wood stove just put a pot of water on top....just make sure you keep water in it. 

If you want to really dry out a house, turn on the AC.


----------



## Basementgeek

If you have a heater in each room, that is nice. You don't have to heat a room that is not in use.

Electric heat is not as cheap as others, but it is cheaper to install. Some places it is your only option.

BG


----------



## Solidify

Yes, BG. We now have electric baseboard heaters in each room and are simply replacing them with convectors which the electrician told us will save us some money on heating costs.


----------



## Basementgeek

I hope that you are not replacing the baseboard heaters for these new ones just because of possible savings.

BG


----------



## Solidify

Yes, everything we are doing is to try to cut costs. 

We replaced all of the old-style dial analog thermostats in our building (rental property) with new Aube digital thermostats. The hydro company for our province (Hydro-Quebec) had the following promotion: http://www.changezmesthermostats.com/sig/index.php/web

They came over, removed our old analog thermostats and installed new digital ones. The digital ones cost us 10$ each, installed, on account that they keep the old thermostats. Everyone has told us that the new digital thermostats are more efficient for electrical costs because unlike the older analog thermostats, they do not shut off when they have attained their preset temperature, which cost a lot more money since you have to reheat the entire room once the heating goes off. Conversely, the new digital thermostats do not shut off when they reach the preset room temperature, they simply force less. For instance, if a digital thermostat is set to 21 degrees Celcius, once the room reaches that temperature, the thermostat tells the radiator to only heat the room at 1% of it's capability. 

The electrician that is installing us these new electric convectors (and therefore removing the old electric baseboard heaters) is doing so because he convinced us that the electric baseboard heaters are "energy eaters" and that these new convectors are much more efficient.

Together with the new thermostats, convectors and weather stripping and insulating our home, we hope to save on electric heating costs this winter. 

Now, what objection did you have to me doing so for those motives?


----------



## Basementgeek

Why would I care what you did, I am not paying for it. Do what you want.

Just hope you did your own checking to see if the heaters are worth it. After all they are still resistance heat. The pay back could take several years.

This post has gotten way off topic and is closed. 

BG


----------

