# [SOLVED] can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?



## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

i have currently windows 7 OEM.
have installed windows 8 in extended partition1
i have gentoo linux in another extended partition.
another partition has recovery of the toshiba system
if i make another extended partition and install windows 8.1 in it can access all systems and boot from them from the windows 8 boot menu ?
or will it blank out windows 8 partition ?
in vmware-workstation i have tried windows 8.1 but very slow response within the linux .
i want to keep the windows 8 in any case.
advice needed.
thanks


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## Masterchiefxx17 (Feb 27, 2010)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

Why not just upgrade your current Windows 8?


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

i have seen people have lot of troubles after upgrade.
mostly with the xbox games on windows pc.
i want all the games to work. now i have no problems.
if i can have both windows 8 and 8.1 separately installed i will go for it
rightaway upgrade i don't want to do either windows 7 or 8


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## Masterchiefxx17 (Feb 27, 2010)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

Well installing Windows 8.1 on another partition will be a fresh copy. It will not have access to the other Windows 8.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

i was afraid it might be the case having experienced with 2 xp installations
well i wll try to be happy with windows 8


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

You can have 8 and 8.1 and still have access to both from either, but the first time you try to access the other installation's user data, permissions need to be set first, this is done automatically, the only user action needed is for you to respond to a prompt that asks for permission to continue. 

You do not have to create new partitions on the physical disk drive, but can instead create virtual hard drives (VHD) on already existing partitions and install Win 8 and 8.1 on the VHD. Web search for VHD for more information on them and how to install Windows on them.


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

Note that deploying Windows 8.1 using the imagex utility (whether on a VHD or not), you get to keep the current boot menu (grub, I suppose) and you only need to add the new installation's boot entry to the boot menu. If you install 8.1 the normal way (by booting from the dvd or running setup from Windows), the grub boot menu will be replaced by the Win 8 boot menu and you'll have to reinstall grub to regain access to the Linux installation.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

i have not installed grub on mbr of the hdd. so that is not a problem. i boot linux from windows 8 boot menu.
i have the imagex downloaded and made a dvd .
the instructions for installing with it is so confusing i may probably kill my laptop
do you mean to say the new boot menu only locks the current windows 8 partition if i install windows 8.1 ?
if you can give me detailed info on the subject it will help 
thanks Stancestans

edit :
i read about VHD and installation. it does not appear to be different from vmware-workstation. again working within another OS will be slow as right now i have tried in vmware


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

I just realized I didn't answer your initial questions, so here goes:


> if i make another extended partition and install windows 8.1 in it can access all systems and boot from them from the windows 8 boot menu ?


Yes. You will have access to the other installations from the boot menu because they will be added to the newly installed boot menu, if the existing boot menu is indeed replaced with a new one during 8.1's setup.



> or will it blank out windows 8 partition ?


No, it will not touch the Windows 8 partition unless you incidentally or deliberately choose the Windows 8 partition as the target drive for the 8.1 installation.



> i want to keep the windows 8 in any case.


Windows 8 will not be touched as long as you do NOT select its partition as the target drive for the 8.1 installation.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

thanks Stan i will try to install in a new partition.
and get back here if problems arise.


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*



roodap said:


> i have not installed grub on mbr of the hdd. so that is not a problem. i boot linux from windows 8 boot menu.
> i have the imagex downloaded and made a dvd .
> the instructions for installing with it is so confusing i may probably kill my laptop
> do you mean to say the new boot menu only locks the current windows 8 partition if i install windows 8.1 ?
> ...


I brought up imagex and VHDs because I assumed that you are using grub boot menu and not Windows boot menu, in which case, installing Windows would have replaced grub and you'd no longer have access to the Linux installation until you reinstalled grub.

How come you have the Linux entry in Windows' boot menu? Did you install Linux side by side with Windows (as a program that can be uninstalled through Control Panel)? I'm curious because installing Windows after installing Linux gets rid of grub. Likewise, installing Linux after Windows, installs and updates grub to include the Windows boot menu and its entries. Note once have I seen Windows detecting a Linux installation and adding it to its boot menu, unless linux was installed as a "program" on the same partition as Windows.

The concept of virtual hard drives is quite different from that of vmware because a virtual hard disk acts like a separate hdd and any installation made on it is not run from within another OS. Instead, the OS installation on a vhd is explicitly loaded by rebooting into it through the boot menu, just the way you boot into OS that's been installed on its own partition.

As for speed/performance of VHDs, there is no noticeable decline in performance as observed when using vmware. If you ask me, the performance of a VHD is identical to that of a physical hdd, despite it being an emulation of a physical drive. Note that a VHD supports all of the disk operations that you would perform on a physical hdd, for example, you can partition it the same way you would partition an actual hdd, using disk/partition management software. As far as partitioning software is concerned, the VHD is just another hard disk drive.

My setup includes two VHDs, one has Windows Seven 64-bit, the other has Windows 8.1 32-bit (the one am using to post this :grin and I can conform that there is no noticeable difference from the Seven 32-bit and Windows 8 32-bit installations that reside on their own partitions, in terms of performance. In fact, I've ended up using the Win 8.1 installation a lot more than I use the others because it loads faster than the others, yet it resides on a VHD. The faster performance is not because of the VHD, no, it's simply because I have kept it simple (20 GB only), with very few programs, for use when i want a quick go at some work. I'm currently tied up building a database application using Ms Office 2007 for a client, and I did not have 2007 installed in any of the other OS'es and I did not want to install it side by side with the other versions that i use, so I went for a VHD. I also did not want to get rid of the Windows 8 installation, and i didn't want to resize my "Data" partition to create room for Windows 8.1 and Seven 64-bit. So what I did is create the VHDs on the Data partition (it's the largest), and they are simply two 'container' files sitting there like any other file.

I already have 5 partitions (XP, Seven, 8, Linux Mint 13 LTS, Data) and I did not wanna resize the Data partition to create space for Seven x64 and 8. So my Data partition is still its original size, yet it technically houses 8.1 and Seven x64 as two, large, simple files. 

My point is, you may not want to resize an existing partition so as to create space for the 8.1 installation, a VHD is a neater and straight-forward option (IMO), that's why I brought it up. Otherwise, if you prefer to create an additional partition, then it's absolutely fine and your existing installations won't be affected by 8.1. Furthermore, if you go for the VHD option, 8.1's performance will be just as good as if installed on a normal drive. VHDs are similar to virtual CD/DVD drives, with the advantage of being able to boot from them.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

thanks stan 
the VHD as you have explained seems interesting. i will definitely give it a try.
i have installed gentoo linux in my partition 4 [sda6] and grub2 is installed to the partition.
with the ecbcd i have edited and added the linux partition to the windows boot menu.
it works real fine.
about the VHD space required in any of my partitions do i not reserve some space fpr the vhd file like in vmaware vdk 
i can spare the 20 gb space in my linx partition and free it up for windows 8.1
and install it there. which space was used by the vmware windows 8.1 but it was very very slow and video resolution was poor.
i am right now downloading the iso file for windows 8.1.

seems i have to read more about VHD application and launch of it under windows 7
virtual cd/dvd use already. i have to learn how to VHD properly .
my next project will be that.
thanks stan again

i am sure to have some troubles with the windows 8 and 8.1 and my microsoft account.
ok we will cross that bridge when we reach there
will be back with more results. good or bad


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

Can't wait to hear how that goes. As for your Microsoft account, I don't think you'll have a problem, if anything, it'll be quite cool to have your windows 8 and 8.1 accounts synchronized (PC settings etc).

Yes, you do need to reserve space for the vhd. This is done during vhd creation process (if fixed size option is used). In the case of dynamically resized vhd, it's space allocation grows with the vhd's size, but that's not a good option for a vhd that will house OS. Unfortunately you can't create it on the Linux ext4 partition because of no support of ext4 filesystem in Windows. That means you'll just have to resize the Linux partition to create space for 8.1. Anyway, you'll definitely learn more about vhd when that time comes.

I had totally forgotten about EASYBCD :facepalm:, perhaps because I started changing boot menu entries directly using the bcdedit command line utility. I also didn't know that the Windows boot menu can correctly store entries for Linux installation. That's an eye opener thanks to you :thumb:.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

the linux entry in windows boot menu will work only if grub2 installed to the linux partition.
the earlier version grub will not work. i came to know about easybcd form you only in another thread.
you have opened my eyes in many subjects earlier.
thank you stan


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: can i install windows 8 and 8.1 in the same hdd ?*

the installation went well and all systems are still booting ok.
only problem i find is the widows menu screen. i used to use the textual menu by having windows 7 default. now after this windows 8.1 install this menu has taken over. for any system other than windows 8.1 it wants to restart
is there any way i can use the windows 8 boot menu ?


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

Set Windows 7 as the default, the text based boot menu will be back


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

i tried it already. still goes to windows 8.1 graphic boot screen.


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## spunk.funk (May 13, 2010)

For booting to different OS's use EasyBCD boot manager


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

Try setting it as the default through the Startup and Recovery section of the Advanced System Configuration dialog that's available through the System section of the control panel. The same dialogue where you disable automatic restart on failure an.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

yes stan i have tried both in the advanced settings startup and recovery box drop down and at the main boot menu change default . it is adament on coming up graphical boot menu only.
it could br because of order of installation of the systems
grub2 on my linux partition does not want to scan windows boots.
it does only the 2 linux kernels only.
usb stick ubntu 13.0 grub 2 does scan windows boots separately the 3 windows options are present. only i ave to invoke bios boot order every time.
previously have experienced the graphical boot menu fails to come up and only text was comingup while trying to add the linux boot entry.
i can't reproduce the conditions.
right now i have no idea how to go about solving this requirements of restartng for other operating system start up


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

after trying for number of times i found the textual boot appears if i select default windows 7 in windows 8 startup recovery.
the problem seems to have been solved.
my next thing will be to try VHD windows xp
thanks for all supports TSF
and stan

:smile::smile::smile:


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

roodap said:


> after trying for number of times i found the textual boot appears if i select default windows 7 in windows 8 startup recovery.
> the problem seems to have been solved.
> my next thing will be to try VHD windows xp
> thanks for all supports TSF
> ...


Good to know it's sorted. You are most welcome :smile:


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

cold boot problems start. it is trying to go to widows 8.1 but stops saying startup problems gives option to restart and advanced options.
restart goes back to textual message boot and then it asks to start safemode or normal startup windows.
this is the second time i have got the automatic repair csreen
both times it has asked for safe start or normal boot
so far there s no problems but looks lke it is heading for troubles.
i do not find any settings problem.
cold boot only has problem. once started it keeps for all restarts the textual boot screen and works fne.


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

Perhaps you should rebuild the boot menu using EASYBCD. Backup the existing store first, then delete all entries, reinstall the Seven mbr and add the entries afresh.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

in which boot menu ? windows 8.1 or windows 8
i have no idea about the seven mbr and how to reinstall it ?
do you mean to re install of windows 7 mbr ? from windows 7 dvd boot up
i am confused reading your answer


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

roodap said:


> in which boot menu ? windows 8.1 or windows 8
> i have no idea about the seven mbr and how to reinstall it ?
> do you mean to re install of windows 7 mbr ? from windows 7 dvd boot up
> i am confused reading your answer


Nope, not from dvd. On EASYBCD there's a section that let's you install Seven or XP mbr. I'm not sure if 8 or 8.1 mbr is included in latest version because I used EASYBCD long ago. It often requires you to set the partition on which to install the mbr. After its installed, you set up the entries and save. Give me a moment to explore EASYBCD so I can give precise directions if by that time you won't have had help


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

have installed ECBCD-2.2
i could not find any menu of build mbr in ny of the controls dropdowns
the boot entries shown here of windows 8.1 
my widows 7 is in partition 2 .partition 1 is system
widows 8.1 mounts windows 7 as d:
that can be a problem for bios to determine what is what


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

> widows 8.1 mounts windows 7 as d:


That is expected and is normal, it shouldn't be a problem because the drive letter displayed in the boot menu entries are actually relative, and are *only read* when the boot menu entries are being displayed. Note that the currently loaded OS will assign its partition the letter C. Next time you reboot and load a different installation, that will assign its partition the letter C. That has been the normal behaviour in Windows Seven and 8/8.1, at least to my knowledge. I'm not sure if the same happens for Vista, but XP doesn't assign its partition the letter C when it loads.

Having said that, it shouldn't worry you because boot menu entries are referred to by their partition numbers and not volume letters because the volume letters will change depending on the OS or Recovery environment that is currently running, unlike partition numbers on a disk (partition numbering is persistent for all sessions, whether in OS or RE)

As for EASYBCD, I too am running 2.2 and it seems it's the latest version. I suppose you've created a backup of the BCD store already. The appropriate button should be easily recognizable. To reinstall/rewrite the MBR, click the BCD Deployment button to load that section. You should see the Write MBR button and two options above it. Choose to install the Windows vista/7 bootloader. If the mbr was written successfully, a message will state so in the status bar of the window. If any errors occur, please say so.

Next is to reload/refresh the BCD store. Find the appropriate option under the File menu. Check the 7 entry as the default and then save the changes. Click on save even if no changes were made. If save was successful, quit EASYBCD and shut down pc. Then perform a 'cold' boot. Report back if the problem is still there.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

all went very well.
yesterday i was afraid to push the deployment button to explore easybcd as 4 systems will fail if something went wrong.
it said mbr written and i have checked if it has really saved the backup of today. t is present.
i booted the laptop after 10 minutes of shutdown it shows textual boot menu as expected.

i will wait till tomorrow morning to see if everything hold good after tonight's shutdown and power off.
thanks for the detailed instructions of all operations.
i will report back tomorrow morning if any problem still present.
thanks again stan


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## spunk.funk (May 13, 2010)

It sounds like Easy BCD did the trick for you. Excellent!


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

i learned more about EasyBCD and to take risks when all of you are present for supports.
thanks spunk.funk


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

this is to report the textual boot menu came up alright
happy that it woks ok
this is cold boot from overnight power off of the laptop


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

Thanks for the update. Cheers :beerchug:


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

this after noon i had switched off the laptop at 2 pm.
6.30 pm evening i switch on to see the windows 8.1 graphical menu screen coming up.
windows 7 is still shown as default
why it s so unstable i don't understand.
it looks needs some more probing what calls the graphical menu.
i am sorry to bother you all on this problem again.


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

Boot Windows 8.1 and run CMD as admin then run the following command line. 

```
b c d e d i t / s e t " { c u r r e n t } " b o o tme n u p o l i c y l e g a c y
```


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

i get an error like shown

The element data type specified is not recognized, or does not apply to the
specified entry.

looking/exploring further i found 

identifier {current}
device partition=C:
path \Windows\system32\winload.exe
description Windows 8.1
locale en-US
inherit {bootloadersettings}
recoverysequence {26f8f60f-228e-11e3-a2d6-815d6917a8da}
integrityservices Enable
recoveryenabled Yes
allowedinmemorysettings 0x15000075
osdevice partition=C:
systemroot \Windows
resumeobject {26f8f60d-228e-11e3-a2d6-815d6917a8da}
nx OptIn
bootmenupolicy Standard

can we edit with any other editor ? and save

i am not really good at command line

my bios has option for legacy /uefi boot


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

ok i got how to do it. edited the policy to legacy.
i will try it and get back.
thanks stan


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

> my bios has option for legacy /uefi boot


That has nothing to do with whether the boot menu is the metro ui style or not.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

i did one step further. probably it may not change anything.
in addition to changing policy legacy in win 8.1 i also did it for win 8 policy.
anyways this morning it booted as expected with textual menu.
i have not yet tried the linux boot will work or not. this depends on uefi grub folder.
i will keep checking for 3 4 days and report back any problems or its health good
thanks for the support stan.
i too thought bios has nothing to do in this problem.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

i am back again with the persisting gui windows 8.1 boot menu.
however i found that only if i shutdown from windows 8.1 the cold boot wants to go gui menu. restart does not insist on gui.
i have tried to find if there is a shutdown log but no log.
there is something which wants to start with gui menu.

this does not happen if i shutdown from any other system of my laptop.
text menu promptly comes up.
that means i cannot shutdown from windows 8.1 and expect to see the text boot menu on next startup
this i have made sure is the case. 10 out of 10 shutdown has proved it.

what do i look for solving this.

eventviewer did not provide any helpful info for this .
msconfig.exe also did not help 
right now i have no more idea


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

i forgot to mention while cold startup of windows 8.1 i am not able to select boot device from bios. in fact the toshiba splash also is not seen. i will try to get in bios setup next boot.
windows 8.1 does not use the bios or what ?


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

this must have come up after updates. this fast startup option was not there earlier. now that i have ticked it off the startup may be normal like what i expect with text menu screen. will wait 2 3 days and report back the results. :smile:


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## jonnyb (May 23, 2006)

Wait until you do the Update 1. I just did it and it took 2.5 hours. Had 8, did the 8.1 upgrade and that took over 2 hours. So I got about 5 hours into updates and the Update 1. What the F is wrong with Microsoft?!!!!

Do you think that most people will want to do this? I did it because I am a tech and I have to experiment with this crap. But the normal person? I don't think so.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

in my windows 8.1 installation all updates are in as shown
in a new installation the problems of upgrade from windows 8 are not seen.


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## roodap (Mar 2, 2012)

i would like to report my startup menu problems are solved.


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## Stancestans (Apr 26, 2009)

Good to know. Thanks for the updates.


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## LesHart51 (Oct 21, 2008)

Masterchiefxx17 has it right. As-long-as you have the room to set-up and run another partition with Windows 8.1, the partitions will NOT interfere with each other. A member above said that it always goes to Windows 8.1, so he evidently isn't familiar with how to boot-up with separate partitions. The computer will give you the choice of which partition you boot to, and you simply choose whichever one you want to use. This, I'd assume, you are already familiar with since you already have multiple partitions. Again, separate partitions will not interfere with each other.
I hope this helps.:beerchug:


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