# Copper vs. PEX



## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I'd like to know what most of you confide in when making renovations for plumbing: PEX or copper?

A lot of people say that copper is much more expensive and that because PEX is much cheaper, easier to work with and doesn't burst (just expands) when it freezer, along with other great advantages.. there are still those that argue that PEX is still plastic and there are contaminants in there that could get into your water over time.

I would like to see what all the advantages and disadvantages of using both copper and PEX are because I've been sitting on the fence for quite a while now and would like to have made up my mind when it finally comes down to do housework.

Edit: As a side note, does anyone know why my 30 year old home did not have any shut off valves when we moved in? Is it because the contractors didn't feel the need to put it, valves were expensive back then or they didn't exist yet? I don't see how a plumber, even 30 years ago, could not have stopped to think "hey, what if this owner has to change his faucet in the next 30 years?"...


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## kendallt (Feb 21, 2007)

Shut off valves are just an added expense, they are not required for code, and 99.99% of the people buying houses would never notice their absence. So, they are not included in most new homes. 
For most contractors, the job is done 'to contract', not 'to convenience'. By contract, that sink has to be usable, if you have to shut down the whole building to fix it, it's not my problem. 

Valves were available almost as soon as running water was invented, and immediately after that the first contractor tried to figure out how to shortcut the contract...

Edit: 90% of homeowners will call a plumber for a faucet drip. It's sad, but I have no real argument there, I make a lot of money because a lot of homeowners don't know which end of a hammer to hold. Roughly 75 to 80% of my income is from fixing things that anyone could do, 20% is from 'emergencies' or times that people don't have time to do themselves (on vacation etc), and only about 5% is from things that actually require experience.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Good point. Answered my question. Thanks.


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## kendallt (Feb 21, 2007)

Also, pex is much cheaper than copper.
If freezing is an issue, you need to 'cheat'. Pex resists freeze damage, the fittings don't. They are just as susceptible to freeze damage as PVC is. to 'cheat' loop pex into living spaces,(warmer) then install the fittings. 
"Normal' procedure is to run the pex and 'T' off to make a run into living space, 'cheating' would loop the pex into the living area, install the "t", then loop back through to the 'cold' area. 

As far as contaminants in pex, if it worries you, you should stop shopping at the supermarket, drill your own well and raise your own food. You will see far more 'garbage' in aunt Jane's 100% natural vegetable soup than you will see in Pex tubing.


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

What kind of pluming do have now? My first house built in 1971 was all cooper supply lines. Now I did some plastic supply lines in the late 70's in my parents house and it still there. Hot water supply lines can be a problem, just depends on the temperature of the water.

One way to determine what builders are using is to check out a couple of medium priced model homes. Pretend you are interested in buying one :>). I think you will find cooper supply.

Yea, they don't put in valves because they cost a little more.

BG


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## jbf (Sep 21, 2008)

I would check the pH of your water and do a lead and copper test. pH below 7.0 can leach both lead and copper. Old lead solder and even some newer copper fittings and pipe contain lead that can leach into your drinking water at dangerous levels. We had a new mobile home installed in our park about 3 years ago that had lead leaching at 3 times the maximum approved level.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

I just replumbed the master bath in my second home over the long weekend(temp valve/diverter/main showerhead/rain/(4) body sprays). PEX all the way. IMO, It's a great system for residential applications. Copper costs a small fortune anymore, and it takes longer to install. 

I hadn't checked pressure from the street since I bought the house, and when I finished my rough in I threw a gauge on one of the body spray outlets. 130 PSI! Yikes!! All the original lines have held for 15 years.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Glad to hear you're satisfied. This may be of use to future readers so I'm just gonna attach it.

I too am starting to love PEX over copper. Makes me want to build something :grin: Especially since you can color-code your service lines.

Source: Copper vs PEX Plumbing Pipes | Copper Plumbing vs PEX Plumbing Pipes


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

Only thing I'm not sure of in that chart is the "Outside the house" line. PEX can be used for service laterals, and is suitable for direct burial. Throwing down a continuous line in the ground gives me more confidence than a bunch of pieces glued together. 

I'm wondering if they aren't advising against surface mounting the PEX. 

Whatcha gonna build? :smile:


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I guess it depends where you live because here in Quebec, we get winters that drop as low as -35 Celcius. And if you have a PEX line in the ground outside in that weather, I don't know if that will end well. 

But if the weather supports it, you make a point about PEX being better than copper pieced together.

Not building anything, just in the midst of learning so many new things about home improvement (i.e.: discovering new tools and how to use them), which makes me want to just build something to try it. But that's child's play. Not sure how old you are since you mentioned you have two homes but have you ever felt like that when you just started learning about this stuff?


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

I'm mid 40's. I've been learning about this stuff my whole life. I still enjoy building things, especially when I get to have the chance to "do my thing". My second house is my biggest DIY project I've ever taken on. It's almost like a big toy to play with. Aside from laying the carpet, and dragging 30 tons of gravel for the driveway, I've done all the work myself. To make it even more interesting, the house is 250 miles from my main house, and I only get up there on the weekends. I've been working on it for a little over a year.

I got the kitchen up and running last month. Some little details to get done, and that's it.

Before(pretty much embarrassing, but the bones/location of this house are what sold me on it):










Gutted and roughed in:










Just about finished:





























I'm not trying to be a show off, but I'm damn proud of what I've put together. Every completed room of the house is up to that finished level. I'm doing the master bath now, and put the bar even higher. It's not easy, but it's very rewarding. Anyone can do it, if they have the will to get it done.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

The first kitchen picture is the before and test are how it looks now? Wow!


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Looks pretty good.....:thumb:. The original kitchen looked 'pinched' with little room to work in.......I've been in smaller kitchens, though. 

The grain of the wood panel covering the exhaust chase should have been verticle......:grin:.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Haha, SABL, that's really OCD! But I'd have said the same


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

That's what happens when you spend your life in the trades......:laugh:

I still prefer copper.....easy to work with. You can fit everything together before soldering. 

I recently read the police reports and discovered my biggest fear had come true. My first house was broken into and the copper was stripped out......:sigh:. I've really got nothing in it......sold it back in '87. I had gutted the house (built in 1898) and renovated it......I was 28 when I got it done after 1 1/2 years of work doing everything but the roofing. The house was full of copper.....3/4" for all main runs and 1/2" for the last fixtures in any run. Wonder what the owner will replace it with??


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

He'll probably replace it with PEX since the house is already built and putting copper will be harder in that case. since the wall are already all up, as opposed to how easy putting copper is before the walls go up when building a home.. at least I would put copper.


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## Flight Sim Guy (Dec 19, 2011)

PEX all the way.


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

I usually wait when it comes to new tech......been burned a few times. Fiberglass shingles were highly touted when they first arrived and I bought into the idea. Paid premium price over the old asphalt shingles......years later when I built my house I paid premium for asphalt shingles. Turned out the new fiberglass shingles weren't as good as first thought.

I was offered composite tubs when I built this house.......same price and lighter in weight but just as durable as cast iron. I told the plumber I knew what cast iron would do.......sit there. I have cast iron tubs in this place......:thumb:. I run my water a little hotter than most people and I've seen what happens with hot water and composites....sinks and tubs will crack around the tailpiece (drain) hole.


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## Flight Sim Guy (Dec 19, 2011)

I agree with you there, Sabl. Especially about the shingles. Never had a problem with tubs, but probably don't run it as hot as you do. However, we've used PEX for the last 10+ years and never had a problem.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

SABL said:


> The grain of the wood panel covering the exhaust chase should have been verticle......:grin:.


I'm a wood butcher, not a carpenter. :rofl:

I used dishwasher end panels from the cabinet manufacturer to wrap the duct. They only had one in stock and I had to order a second one in. The horizontal piece was the scrap left after installing the chase sides. It looked better than that eyesore of a duct, and provided me a template to cut the second panel once it arrived. Those pics are 2 months old, and you're the first to comment on that. Good eye. :grin: /hijack off


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Vegas, do you have different sets of lights in the kitchen? Neons?


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Vegassparky said:


> I'm a wood butcher, not a carpenter. :rofl:
> 
> hijack off


All kinds of threads get hijacked.....sometimes staff helps it along....:rofl:

You did pretty good.....:thumb:

You'd be surprised by the number of houses we've trimmed for cabinet builders. They can build cabinets but can not do finish carpentry......too many variables to contend with. 

I play with electric......but have not kept up with the latest codes. I only service my own place and troubleshoot for family.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

Solidify said:


> Vegas, do you have different sets of lights in the kitchen? Neons?


Every fixture in the kitchen has LED's in them. The tech has come a long way in the past couple of years. Above the cabinets are color changing RGB's. They look fantastic at night.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Colour changing RGBs, what is that?


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## kendallt (Feb 21, 2007)

Vegassparky said:


> Every fixture in the kitchen has LED's in them. The tech has come a long way in the past couple of years. Above the cabinets are color changing RGB's. They look fantastic at night.


 Sorry, but n my opinion f the only difference is in color, I'd much rather just switch covers 

Why pay $100 for a choice of red/green/blue, when an $8 red/blue or green filter can be slipped over the light?

OOps, purple.......

But I really hope you understand what I mean. 

You have no idea how many times I have have heard people swear by a 'great feature' they pay an extra $500 for that can be handled by 0.005 seconds extra time......
(OOH, but all I do is press this button instead of this button after this one!)


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Lets get this post back on topic please.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Who would like to share photos of PEX plumbing jobs they've done recently? I'd love to see that... especially if it's in an older home.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

I'm still working on the master bathroom, and I took some pics for you to get an idea of how easy PEX is to work with. I'm not a plumber, but my connections don't leak, and flow just fine(take it easy on me, you plumbers :wink. Calculate all your fixture flows to determine proper line size, or ask a professional. The PEX fittings are more restrictive than copper, so high demand fixtures may need larger lines than what you may think. If you have any copper or brass connections/fittings/adapters that need to be sweated on, do that first. Connecting copper to PEX is really easy, as adapters are available to make about any transition.

I had 1/2" supply lines going up to the existing manifold. That's fine for a single 2.5 GPM shower head. Those won't be enough to supply the new shower layout, so I opened the floor to run 3/4" lines, and move drains.

I shut off the house water supply, and opened a fixture downstairs to bleed off the pressure, and try to get the water below the level I was working. Had a bucket to catch any water left when I opened the system. Label everything before you cut it apart if the lines aren't colored. Make these first cuts slowly in case you still have pressure/water in the system.










Pull out the old, and drag the new lines in. Get everything close, and start with the lower set of lines if they're stacked. Most of the time you can get everything dry fit before crimping.



















The fittings, or crimp sleeves should have a spec as to where the crimp ring should be installed relative to the cut end of the line. Mine say between 1/8" and 1/4" of PEX should be showing after crimping. Set the tool, keeping it square to the fitting, and clamp down. It's that easy.



















There will be instructions with the crimper as to how it should be calibrated to put the proper force on the rings.The crimper should also come with a gauge to tell you if you've done a proper crimp or not. If the "GO" side slides around the ring, it's good. A "NO GO" will be too tight to fit over the crimp ring.










If you decide to change something, the crimp rings can be cut off. I believe a special tool is made for this also, but I use a cordless circular saw, with a steady hand. The brass fittings can be re-used after being removed, and if you're careful the same end of line can be re-crimped.

Once you have everything finished, turn on the water and check for leaks. The shower I'm putting together will have a main head, rain head, and 5 body spray jets. If all that were copper, I'd still be in there with the torch. :grin:


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

kendallt said:


> Sorry, but n my opinion f the only difference is in color, I'd much rather just switch covers
> 
> Why pay $100 for a choice of red/green/blue, when an $8 red/blue or green filter can be slipped over the light?
> 
> ...


There are no gel covers to change. R(ed)G(reen)B(lue) LED's can be controlled to make almost any color, including white light(although it may appear a little blue to some). I have a normal wall switch for the power supply, and have the controller set for a slow color change. Turn on the wall switch, and they do their thing. If I want a different scene(single color/flash/change speed/etc), the controller is hooked to my WiFi and I can command it from my phone. None of it was terribly expensive, and it ranks high in the gadget factor category. Not to mention, I think it looks really cool. The new shower is getting a bunch of LED's and they will be set for a different effect. 

The best part of LED's is their high efficiency. With *every* light on in that kitchen, there is <100wts being used. Compared to a 65wt incandescent flood light, like would normally be in a single ceiling can fixture, and these pay for themselves in no time with savings. The kitchen lights always get left on, and now I don't even care.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Vegas, you already had PEX in your home before you began this project?


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

Solidify said:


> Vegas, you already had PEX in your home before you began this project?


Yes. What I was trying to show you is how to make the actual terminations. 

If you are considering a re-pipe you'll have to have a general idea of how the structure is constructed. The more insight you have as to how it's built will reduce the amount of damage that has to be done to get the new lines pulled. You don't always have to follow the path of the existing plumbing. Every job will be different.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

As I really want the car wash effect in my shower, I've changed out the 1/2" valve and diverter(9GPM max) for a 3/4" thermostatic(22GPM max), with individual volume controls for the various heads. The difference is price is HUGE, but I'm only doing this once.










All the cement board is up, and the walls are waterproofed. Those niches take a lot of time to construct properly. 



















Ready for tile(once the other hundred things in the bathroom get completed).


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Must've been a pain to solder that joint on the upper right hand side there.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

All that got built on the ground. Much easier that way, since the valves and tee are threaded. Then the assembly gets mounted in the wall, and the 6 PEX connections made. :thumb:


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

True true. What were you talking about when you mentionned


> 3/4" thermostatic(22GPM max), with individual volume controls for the various heads.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

That's the type of valves installed. Originally I had a pressure balance thermostatic valve, and a diverter. When you turn on a thermostatic valve it allows full flow through the valve, and only regulates the temperature of the water by mixing hot/cold. That particular valve would only flow 9 gallons per minute(GPM) max. Then the diverter acts like a water switch directing the water to shower head A, B, C, A+B,A+C, or A+B+C. That setup is fine if the calculated gallons per minute falls within the specs of all the shower heads combined flow rate. I did a little work on the valve and was able to get 12 GPM. Even then, all heads receiving flow would receive equal available pressure because of the way the diverter is constructed. 

The new set up uses a larger thermostatic valve sending water up to the three volume controls. The volume controls are like zone switches. You can turn them all up full blast and they feed all the various shower heads, or you can throttle an individual zone so the amount of water is reduced to particular heads. The new valve system will take away any concerns I had about pressure and flow, and allow simpler operation. 

Like I said, I'm goin for the car wash effect. LOL


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

That's a cool upgrade. nice and shiny. :grin:

I saw the inside of my wall when the plumber re-soldered one of my shower piping but it was never that intricate. If there's one thing that I've come to learn while on this forum is that knowledge really is power. You can spend all the money in world to pay someone to do a job for you but if you have enough time, determination and are an intrinsic person (well no, that last one's a plus), you can make all your jobs perfect. 

Because you can pay a pro to do your plumbing or drywall for instance, but if you don't know what he's doing, you have no way of checking if the job is done well. But if you learn how to do it yourself, you can actually make sure no nail is out of place. 

For example, when the electrician came over to install the new electric heaters, he needed to rip out the wood baseboard to route the cables. He made so much damage pressing up against the drywall and breaking off chunks of drywall with his hands carelessly, but if I'd have know what to do (or any DIY'er), I'd make sure to make the cuts nicely with a gypsum cutter or utility blade, because it's gonna be mine to admire when the job is done. Very few workers, from what I've seen, will come to a job site, and debate between doing the job right or getting it done faster without resulting to the latter.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

Your statement express' exactly what inspires most DIY'ers, if it's not flat out necessity that's the motivator. I enjoy the learning process, and the end result is satisfying. Perfection is the goal, but hard to achieve. Flies always end up in the ointment, and compromises usually have to be made. That's the nature of the beast.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> Perfection is the goal, but hard to achieve. Flies always end up in the ointment, and compromises usually have to be made. That's the nature of the beast.


Gonna steal that! 

But my problem is that I became a DIY (well I think I am) out of necessity. Don't get me wrong, I still love learning about home improvement but sometimes I just don't have enough calm to do the job half as well as some of you here.


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Wisdom comes with age, you will learn.

Hang in there buddy, you are doing fine. You are making us old guys think!

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> You are making us old guys think!


Lmao how am I doing that?


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

I think our discussions on drywall patching have brought us to where defects are down to a molecular level. LOL


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

And imagine, this thread was about PEX haha


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

You ask, How I am making you think ?

Because what you are asking we may not have done in years. The last time I had to fix a supply line problem was 10 Apr 2008. (Hot water tank and I wrote on it when I did it. It is bigger)

The only time I have worked with plastic supply lines, your parents were probably little kids and it was rigid plastic. I am a rigid copper guy.

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Yeah a lot of plumbers always tell me that they prefer working with copper bc theyre used to it. But id be ready to build an entire house in pex. I mean you could color code your service lines, so convenient


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## Basementgeek (Feb 7, 2005)

Sure, colour code them if you want or helps you. 

Years ago there were many law suits/refunds on one type of plastic supply lines, can't remember the name. Copper lines should last pretty much for ever

BG


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, but the PEX that is out on the market today is much better than the older plastic supply lines you're talking about from years ago. There shouldn't be any regrets if I'd build en entire house using PEX tomorrow. 

I'm curious to visit a construction site for a new home and see what they are using (PEX or copper). What do you think that answer would depend on?


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## joeten (Dec 4, 2008)

Costs it always is


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

What if I'm rich but know that PEX is better...


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## joeten (Dec 4, 2008)

Your money your choice


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

You're not following me. You're saying that costs almost always determines what the piping system will be in a new construction but since PEX is now cheaper, wouldn't that mean that PEX would be found everywhere.. whether it's for price or because it's arguably better.


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## joeten (Dec 4, 2008)

No price consists of cost to the company against what they can charge for the unit and many companies will believe the cooper route is better over the long term


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> No price consists of cost to the company against what they can charge for the unit


I don't understand what you mean by this.


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## joeten (Dec 4, 2008)

Big companies can order bigger quantities and get the price down


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Cost is the main advantage of using PEX. Most of your mid to upper end homes have copper......lower priced homes have cpvc and maybe PEX at this time. I've been out of the business since '07. 

One thing I didn't like:


> They may allow bacterial infections to take place.


Advantages and Disadvantages of PEX Piping and Copper Piping | Plumbing & Heating Parts

The only plastic water lines I have in my house are the supply lines that go from shut-off valve (stop) to the fixture. I'd be hard pressed to go with any type of water line other than copper. Sparky's situation is a little different.....he is actually constructing a fixture (shower system) and not piping the entire building with PEX.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

I've taken in all the pros and cons of both but am still surprised to see tht most would rather use copper over PEX.

Why is this the case for you? I get the hunch that if you'd build a new home tomorrow, you'd still do it in copper. Is the bacterial infection the only reason?


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

I know what copper does......it lasts a long time. PEX hasn't been around long enough for me to draw any conclusion on it's value. 

Yes......I would do copper. Been working with it since mid 70's.


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## kendallt (Feb 21, 2007)

For commercial use, Cost 'per foot' is not always considered important. Most companies will gladly pay more for something if it keeps the labor costs down. Pex, for most use, is cheaper all around than copper. Soldering a joint takes a bit of skill, copper takes a double joint every 10ft, pex comes in 250ft plus rolls, and unskilled labor can run it point to point, leaving only the fittings for the licensed people. 
For home owner use, especially if you plan to live in the house, go with the best, even if it's more expensive to install. Living with something for 20+ years offsets the cost for the homeowner, commercial installers have to balance material cost and labor with profit. 

As Sabl said, copper is extremely durable, and will outlast you. However, I went with pex when I redid my house because I have serious freeze issues, and pex is very forgiving of freezes.


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## Vegassparky (Nov 24, 2013)

Here in the desert SW, even the best homes have PEX roughed in. Unless its spec'd for copper, that's what they get. Commercial installations are copper only.


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

kendallt said:


> For home owner use, especially if you plan to live in the house, go with the best, even if it's more expensive to install.


What is the best?


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## Solidify (May 12, 2011)

> Here in the desert SW


Where is SW?


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## SABL (Jul 4, 2008)

Freezing is the main advantage of PEX IMO.

Last time I bought any quantity of copper 20' lengths were available......as well as PVC pipe. 


Sparky:
They do _everything_ different in the SW.....:laugh:.

SW = Southwest (USA)


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