# [SOLVED] ~$2000+ PC Tower



## Yervand

Well at some point I figured I wanted a computer. I went to a computer place by my house where a sales man offered me building a new computer tower for just $50 + the hardware cost. $50 was asked for his "hard" work for buying and assembling the tower. When he was looking for how much this and that costs he didn't allow me to take a look at his monitor. So I figured this Chinese man is going to rip me off on the price of the hardware somehow. I don't have a problem with him being Chinese or making money for his leaving, but he ain't doing it to me! I figured I could pay $50 to the forum as a donation and have my computer the way I want it and without being riped off, since I am getting my hardware myself and I know everything is going to be fine with it. I don't think that guy is smarter then guys on this forums are anyways, so why pay him and have all this worries?



_*a) what do you want to do with this new system / if you game how serious a gamer are you ?*_
I am going to do a little bit of everything in a lot of different fields:
- I am not a hardcore gamer, but I do want my system to be able to run some of the top of the line games (for example something like coming up Crysis)
- I hate the lagging while browsing the internet or computer. I want my system to be fast. I am into multitasking with some heavy programs like running Photoshop and AutoCAD at the same time with files open, while listening to music.
- I am also into computer designing and Architecture, so I need my computer to handle some heavy graphical tasks (not just games)

_*b) which level do you "want" your system to be mid-level / performance / ultra performance*_
Well of couse I want my system to be super-mega-ultra-highestpossible-topoftheline performance =), but I guess it all depends on my budget, so my budget should answer this questions.

_*c) anticipated budget >>>> we can give suggestions for complete builds in the $1000.00 range all the way to the Uber $2,800.00 machine*_
I am planing on spending about $2000 on a tower, because I got everything else ready. I just need a tower.

_*d) what are the specs of the system you are using now ?*_
I don't think this is going to help in building my new computer, because I am not going to use any parts from this computer to put into a new one. One acception is a dvd-burner (which i recently bought, because my old one got broken). Anyways, I got:
Pentium 4 2.50 GHz,
2x512 RAM = 1GB RAM
2x120 GB Hard Drives = 240 GB
256 Mb Radeon 9200 Video Card (regular PCI, I think that slot is called 2.1? Not sure...)
Windows XP Pro installed








*1. Budget: How much money are you willing to spend on the new build?*
I got everything ready accept an actual tower. I am talking about:
- Logitech MX Air mouse, 
- Logitech Wave Keyboard (not wireless), 
- Logitech Z-5450 THX Digital 5.1 Speaker System
- HP w2207 Monitor

I am thinking about spending $2000 on a tower, but if it isn't enough to satisfy my needs I am going to go for $2500.

*2. Brands: Are there any brands of components you want or don't want?*
Well i do have some, but it is not necessary. If YOU think I SHOULD get something from the list below - I am down for it.
- I did have some bad experiences with Maxtor hard drives. I wonder if they all are bad? I heard Western Digital HDs are the best ones?
- I was recommended to get Creative Labs sound card (which I need in order to set my sound system), but I am getting help from this guy right here -> LINK. Though I am always open to suggestions.

*3. Multitasking: Will you be multitasking with this computer and if so, how much?*
Very much and with heavy weight programs like Adobe Photoshop, Autodesk AutoCAD, Autodest 3D Studio, Autodesk Revit. Not like I am going to multitask with all of them at the same time, but I do combine few of them together time-to-time. So I am thinking about 2-4 GB of RAM. We could consider getting 2 in the beginning, but then upgrading to 4.

*4. Gaming: Will you be gaming and if so, how much and how new are the games?*
I am NOT a hardcore gamer, but it would be nice to have that ability. I do want to play coming up Crysis, but it is another luxury option.

*5. Calculations: Will you be doing any intense calculations or media encoding?*
I do edit videos time-to-time, but it is a last thing I want to think about since I don't care about it. Even less then games, which I consider to be a luxury option.

*6. Overclocking: Do you plan on overclocking and if so, how much?*
What's overclocking and what do you eat it with? =) Is it when you make your hardware work to it's max by changing the original setup? I am not into that.

*7. Storage: How much storage will you need and what will you be storing?*
I am going to be storing a lot of movies, music, and some other heavy files. 2 hard drives 250GB each should satisfy my needs, but bigger it is better it is. 2x250 is minimal. And it HAS to be 2 hard drives.

*8. Operating System: Do you want Windows XP or Vista, or Linux compatibility?*
I will be running XP to start up, but eventually I would switch to Vista in about half year or so.

*9. Case: Do you want help selecting a case and if so, how big do you want it?*
I already got my case ready. It is Raidmax Sirius (Black). It didn't come with a power block, so i need one It does come with fans (one on the back and one on the front of the woter. I don't remember how you call them, but these are the big ones, not the small ones) + one more small fan on the side

*10. Accessories: Do you want a keyboard, mouse, or other items included?*
I already got all that. I listed it above.

*11. Recycled Components: Will you be reusing any components you already have?*
Umm? Does that mean do I want to be using any parts from my old tower to put into my new tower? The only thing I want to take out of there is the dvd burner to combine it with another dvd burner which I am going to buy, so that I have 2.

*12. Monitor: If you want a monitor, what size do you want and should it be widescreen?*
I already got 22" monitor.

*13. Stores: Do you have any online stores that you prefer to purchase from?*
If possible Amazon.com because I have a membership with them that allows me to get 2 day shipping for only $3 per item. Overstock.com is a nice website too, because of the big discounts they offer, but big part of their products were refurbished/returned that's why they might cost 70% of original price. I am not sure if I wanna be buying something like that. If it is save I am down for it. You tell me.

*14. Location: What country do you live in?*
I live in United States. Los Angeles, CA.






Some more information:
I want:

- As I said I am not a hardcore gamer, but IF I am going to play I don't want it to glitch, so I want 2x 512mb PCI Express video cards. I could start from buying one and then adding another one, because my starting budget ($2000) will not handle it.
- 4GB of RAM memory. We could start from getting 2GB memory card to start up and then have me upgrade by adding another one with 2 more Gigs. But if there is a good deal for 8 Gigs I am getting it =)
- 2x dvd writes. I already got one, so i need one more.
- sound card that can handle 5.1 sound system. Just like I said - I already get help on that one separately (included a link above), but I am always open to suggestions.
- No matter what capacity each hard drive is - I want my system to have 2 hard drives.
- Of course I don't want a floppy drive (just a look of it annoys me, I tried to take out one in my system, but for some reason my system won't load without it. I guess it has something to do with the bios setup which I am not too experienced with. So i had to put it back in =) )
- Media card reader. I do not want a super fancy one. I just want it to read some most common cards like SD and others. Maybe having an extra usb port or firewire port would be nice, but I am not planing on spending more then $50 on that. I want it internal too.
- Bluetooth. I heard there you can set up your computer to have bluetooth, so that you can transfer songs to your cellphone without wires. It would be nice, I always dreamed about it. But it is one of those luxury options, so if it is too expensive I don't want it.
- I am not into stuff like see through power blocks, glowing wires and so on. My case doesn't even have a see true part on th side.
- I do have Windows XP Pro installation cd and lets not worry about Windows Vista for now.
- I am wishing to spend $2000 on this pc tower, but if needed I will spend more. Up to $2500.

*- I will donate when my system is done = GUARANTIED*



PS: One important thing is that I already got $1000 on my hands, so lets start from getting a mother board with a processor, power block, at least one hard drive, and at least one memory card. $1000 will probably be enough for that.

Then I would be able to plug my existing video card and a dvd writer, but running a better system. Then we will start on upgrading and reaching my goal.


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Hi, :wave:

I would be looking at 2 x 320 GB hard drives just to be safe. Maxtor has had a bad rep, but ever since Seagate bought them out, they have been making much better hard drives. I usually go with Western Digital and Seagate which I use in personal builds.

The one thing I will say is that you should probably look at the hard drive and second optical drive as upgrades. Everything else is an essential system component and should be added first. You could consider only getting one 1 GB RAM stick and then adding another, but often motherboards require matching pairs which is why I usually buy RAM in kits.

I was debating in my head whether to go with a Quadro because you do a lot of CAD or a GeForce for gaming, however I looked at some info on the web and came to the conclusion that the 8800GTX would be powerful enough to handle most CAD needs even if it is heavy. Also, the higher end Quadro FX 3k and 4k series cards are very expensive.

One other note, the P6N Diamond I selected below has an onboard Creative X-Fi chip on it, so you don't need to worry about a sound card.

MSI P6N Diamond LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - $247
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130080

Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - $280
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028

Patriot Extreme Performance 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - $93
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220144

Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3320620AS (Perpendicular Recording Technology) 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - $85
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148140

LITE-ON LightScribe Black 20X DVD±R Burner with 12X DVD-RAM write - $36
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106045

BFG Tech BFGR88768GTXOCE GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - $530
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143080

PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 Quad (Black) EPS12V 750W Power Supply - $180
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703009

AOC FC-2000 PCI Slot Case Cooler (for below the video card) - $5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835888309

Those are your main components. I would start off with the CPU, RAM, motherboard, video card, power supply, and one hard disk. You can add more later. You can use your existing Radeon since it is a PCI card if you want to cut the initial budget further.


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## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Matt Has put together a solid build there for you
Just thought I would throw in a few alternate parts here are a few alternate parts

*ASUS P5K3 DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail $240*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131181


*XFX PVT80USHF9 GeForce 8800Ultra 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail $589 ( after rebate )*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150234


*CORSAIR Dominator 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail $141 ( after rebate )*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145043


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## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

The fellas above really hit the nail on the head, they didnt leave much "meat" on the bone for me ! :laugh:




I am personally fond of the *Gigabyte GA-N680-SLI-DQ6 * for high performance machines, it can run both video cards in SLI at 16X speeds plus has the abilty for a third card running at 8X speed for a less intense application ??????

not sure about the boards linked above, the fellas can fill you in on their personal choices too


the rest of the components they listed look great,

for *CPU cooler *I "prefer" is the *tuniq 120 *or *thermalright ultra **extreme 120*
but I have no trouble settling for the Zalman 9700 when needed 


Case; I like the Thermaltake armor full tower 


http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/204/Thermaltake+Armor+Full+Tower+ATX+BTX+Case/


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Remember a dedicated sound card if you do go with another board. I wouldn't spend the extra money on PC2-8500 RAM until Intel processors have FSB bandwidths that can utilize the extra bandwidth it provides over PC2-6400 RAM. :smile:

The Armor cases are great by the way, plenty of room to work with and great airflow.


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Wow! lots of help, thanks to everybody! There are good and bad sides of course. Here we go:


*PERFECT*:





*Processor* - Listen guys! I am not very familiar with all these little abbreviations and names, but I like the way Intel Core 2 Duo 3.0GHz 4M Cache Processor sounds =) (that part I understand). Sounds very tasty =) =) =)

*Hard drive* - SATA Seagate 320GB 16Mb cache Mmmmmmmmm. I also have few questions about it:
1) what does Perpendicular Recording Technology mean? sounds very attractive =)
2) what does 3.0Gb/s part mean? it transfers 3 gigs per second?! =) I don't think so. can some one explain. This two questions are more for educational purposes.

*DVD Writer *- Would not expect more or less from it. It is fine.

*Video card* - looks and sound sexy =) accept I got two questions:
1) It ONLY supports win XP??? that's what it says in specifications







*NEEDS IMPROVEMENTS*

*Motherboard* - Do you guys really think I need 4 pci express slots? I am only going to have 2 video cards. what are the other two for?

I am thinking to go with the one that blackduck30 offered
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131181

I am not sure what is better about that one. I am just judging by the slots. Hopefully that one 

*Memory *- Memory isn't enough. If you guys say Patriot ones are better then here are two choices. I want it 2x2GB 

Tell me if there is a better choice with memories at that capacities and amounts. I bet it depends on which mother board I am getting. (and I am not sure if you guys are going to leave this one we have right now)

*Power block* - I don't know anything about them, but $180 for a power block doesn't sound good. I though they are about $60. Though, if this is what I need in order to get my system running WELL I am down for it.





PS: ANOTHER THING THAT INTERESTS ME IS BLUETOOTH, DO YOU GUYS HAVE ANYTHING TO SUGGEST?

I don't think I need a sound card anymore since a new motherboard is going to support 5.1 systems now.

I already have a case that I like! that one is nice too, but I already got mine. Listed it above with a link.


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## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Ok the board i selected was the ddr3 version, here is the DDR2 one that i meant to select, basically same thing but uses DDR2

*ASUS P5K DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail $220*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131182

With your ram keep in mind that with 32bit operating systems you will be limited to under 4G, I could be wrong with the exact figure but i think it is around 3.2G Max, it is not till you go to 64bit with your operating system that your options open up in terms of the amount of ram


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

You need to spend a good amount of money on a good power supply. The PC Power & Cooling unit is very high quality, I have that in my own computer.

As for the motherboard, the main reason I chose the P6N Platinum is for the high sound quality. If you go for the P5K, look at a dedicated Creative card. The reason I say this is because the onboard sound to my knowledge does not support EAX (hardware accelerated sound) so if you will be doing some AutoCAD at the same time as other tasks, you want to save your CPU time.

Right now, any 32-bit Windows will not be able to utilize 4 GB. Unless you will be using a 64-bit OS or will be heavily dependent on CAD in Linux, 4 GB won't give much improvement.

Also, if you need any of the legacy ports like Serial, Parallel, or the PS/2 Mouse port, then you should look into another board that has these.

The video card does in fact support Vista as well as Linux, and in fact was designed for Vista. The information on Newegg is wrong there.

With the hard drive, perpendicular recording is a technology developed to squeeze more stuff into the hard drive. The thin film magnetic particles are perpendicular to the disk head rather than parallel (thus perpendicular recording) and therefore take up less horizontal space. The result is more storage capability and faster read and write times (because of smaller sectors). The 3.0 Gb/s is the interface speed. No current hard disk can actually sustain that data transfer rate; most seem to top off around 50 MB/s. The high end Western Digital Raptor and other high speed SCSI drives will sustain higher transfer rates, but none above 100 MB/s.


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Thanks for info!

Before I make up my decision I want to clear somethings out:
1) What are x8 and x16 pci express slots?
2) Which one am I going to use?
3) When I am going to get a second video card, am I going have to use the same port (x8 or x16) as my first video card?
4) Purpose of having two video cards is to make graphics better or it only reflects the "glitching" part? 
5) Do two video cards work as one? so if I have two that are 512 is my system going to act as if it had 1TB video card?
6) I am sure I am not going to use PS/2 slot because my mouse and keyboard are usb. What do you use Serial and Parallel for?
7) What should I consider getting as a sound card?
8) What should I consider getting as a card reader drive
9) Any news on bluetooh?

Thanks!


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## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Ok, one thing first.

I was not aware you were contemplating 2 video cards so a bit of information for you.
If you want to use the motherboard I selected you will have to consider switching video cards to ATI as you can only use ATI cards if you want 2 as the intel chipset is designed for crossfire ( which is 2 ATI cards ), If you want to run 2 Nidia cards you need a motherboard that has a Nvidia chipset and is setup for SLI ( 2 X Nvidia cards ).
If you are only using 1 it does not matter you can use either card on either chipset, It is only when you go to 2 cards that it matters.
Also if you are going to use 2 cards I would up the power to at least 850W as 2 high end cards are very power hungry.

Here is an example of a nice Nvidia chipset motherboard

*Open Box: ASUS Striker Extreme LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX The Ultimate Gaming Motherboard $229*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131074R

non open box 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131074



This ATI card is supposed to be quicker than the 8800GTX

*SAPPHIRE 100211 Radeon HD 2900XT 1GB 512-bit GDDR4 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - OEM $490
*
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102099

power supply's

*OCZ GameXStream OCZ850GXSSLI ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 850Watts Power Supply 100 - 240 V CB, CE, CSA, UL - Retail $170 ( after rebate )
*
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341003

*SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V / EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail $150 ( after rebate )
*
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256007

*OCZ OCZ1000PXS ATX12V / EPS12V 1000W Power Supply 100 - 240 V cUL, CB, CE, FCC, TUV - Retail $260 ( After rebate )
*
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341006

Ok now for your questions

the 8X and 16X slots referr to there speed
If you are only using 1 card then you use the 16X slot
if using 2 cards you use both the 16X and the 8X. If you get say the stiker extreme for example it has 2 X 16X available and thus will run 2 cards ( nvidia ) faster than a board with a 16X and a 8X. You look at the 16X or 8x as available information lanes so 2X 16X can in therory move more video information than a 16 and 8X.
2 cards is supposed to in therory increase your video capability but don't be fooled into thinking it will double it cause it won't, the 2 cards work as 1 but you get 40% max increase over one, I actually think the figure is lower.
some older printers use a parallel port for connection and some older game controllers use the serial port as do some older devices.

as far as sound goes look for the sound blaster X-fi, I have a sound blaster audigy 4 and it is also fine and works well with vista

here is one that plugs into a PCI-E 1X slot, you just have to have a look to make sure the 1X slot is available if you are going to use 2 video cards

*Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio VARPAK 7.1 Channels 24-bit 96KHz PCI Express Interface Sound Card - OEM $50 *

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102016

here is the PCI slot brother

*Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio 7.1 Channels 24-bit 96KHz PCI Interface Sound Card - Retail $66*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102007

Card readers I would look at getting something that fits into a spare bay in your case and your needs may vary, you can get ones with usb and firewire on them that connect to your motherboards pin out for firewire and USB.
not sure on bluetooth

card reader example

*Silverstone FP34-S USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail $36*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820131009


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Wow, that's a big fat one =)
Are you saying I should chose one of those three power blocks? I'd rather choose one that is 150 because now I should be thinking on how to spend up some money to get all that.......


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## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I have used silverstone ( I still have a 650W unit ready to go back into another system soon )

They are good quality. I would go with one of the units i suggested as i doubt a 750 W will be enough if you want 2 high end cards

I hope you understood all the info i just tried to cram into your brain


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I do! and i really appreciate it too.
Now that I know that when I connect two video cards one works as 16x and the other one works 8x I have another questions:

*1. *TheMatt suggested getting this motherboard. That mother board has 4 pci express slots - _The 4 PCI Express interface will operate at either x8+x8+x16+x8 or x16+x16+x8 mode_ Does that mean you can set up upto 4 video cards? or is pci express slot used for something else rather then a video card? Not that I am going to spend 2 grands just on video cards alone, it just very interesting since I got behind with all this stuff =)

*2. *A lot of people are saying nvidia cards are better, others say ati cards are better. What do you guys think? Should i got with an ati mother board and ati cards? or nvidia motherboards and nvidia cards?


*3. *Also since 2nd video card improves only %40 of productivity should I got with 2 video cards for $1k or should I spend that 1k to buy some kind of super cool video card that can beat this two? Or that will never happen?


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## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Hey Ervand ( Yawn, sorry 5.30am here )

from what I understand yes, it is possible to run 4 cards but I have not looked into the stability issues of it all, I do know that people have successfully run 2 high end cards at full 16X and then run a physics card in the 3rd slot at 8X and that is why they are bringing out power supplies that exceed 1200W, it's all well and good to have multiple cards but keeping power up to them is an expensive business.
I personally am an nvidia card fan and I do think that they do have the edge on ATI but i really do not think that any one races that far ahead, maybe when Nvidia release there 9XXX series they may leap ahead till ATi gets there next cards out.
The other thing to consider is the chipset on the motherboard. I personally preferr the intel chipsets over the Nvidia chipsets and think that the intel is better performance than nvidia. I currently own an nvidia chipset and my next motherboard I will go back to intel.

Well with the "to do or not to do" in regards to SLI/Crossfire I would only consider either if using the highest cards available as i do not see the point in paying all that extra for to lesser cards that will not perform as well as 1 high end card. I look at it from a $$$$ point of view and that 60% of the second card that is wasted to gain 40% and then the cost of the additional power to run them both. So really it comes down to $$$$ and personal preference.
It might help also to google a few reviews. The board Matt has recommended is a nice unit and the others are also nice but just look into the features and what will suit you best now and possibly in the future.
Ok well it's off to work i go.


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I see... This was very useful. So useful that it changed my mind and will take me some time to decide on what I want.

So let me have some time to think about all this, accommodate it all to a budget that I have and then continue.

I am VERY thankful to all of you guys (and especially blackduck30) for letting me know about all these things and helping me make a right choice.

PS: Meanwhile, if someone has something to tell or offer - I am full of attention =)


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## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I personally would plan on running only ONE 8800 *GTX *video card, until someone can show me a game that one of those GTX's cant run at ANY settings imagined; until then I think the days of SLI got pounded into the dirt by the performance offered by the 8800 cards.

When SLI was first released it was intended as a way to run two cheaper video cards to out power one high class card, that is no longer true not even the venerable 79XX GTX in SLI can out muscle the 8800 *GTS* / never mind its big brother the GTX


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Right now ATi still hasn't released drivers for the 2900XT that can pull it ahead of a single 8800GTX.


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

what are GTX cards?


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Ok, it was a stupid question =)

So, if i choose to go with 1 video card, you guys say 768MB NVIDIA 8800GTX will run better then 1GB ATI 2900XT?


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Yes, it will.


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## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

yup thats right


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Hmm, I thought bigger memory capacity it has better it runs....
is there anything better then that card? I am looking at about $700 to spend on a video card.


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I wouldn't be spending too much now because the G90 will be coming out soon and it will be much more power full and possibly more power efficient (this depends on if nVidia moves down to 80nm or 65nm). If I were in your shoes, I would go with an 8800GTS 320 MB now and get the G90 when it comes out.


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

It is probably going to be very expensive and even more inexpensive to me since I am getting another card first. I would rather get something now for a proper price with out waiting for anything, use it for a couple of years and build a new system.


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Then go with the 8800GTX.


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## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I heard from nvidia that it will be no more then $600 for the gtx version of the new card and like $450 for the gts (still around 2 times faster then a 8800)


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## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

The high end Nvidia card is not coming this year, the 8800GT is (which is lower than the 8800GTS) but a new ATI card is coming this year on the 55nm process, in about 2-4 weeks with more power than the HD2900XT, so better than a 8800GTS 640MB.

If you want to buy one good card now, I'd wait till mid-November as most latest surprise offerings will show up then for Xmas.

8800GTS or below can't play Crysis and latest DX10 games decent enough. You'll need 8800GTX or above for that, and for your tasks, the quad core system is the best, since even Crysis is better on quad than on dual core.

Revamped 8800GTS is not expected this year either but a confusion, AFAIK.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Right, i heard that it was coming Q1-Q2 next year?


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



1 g0t 0wn3d said:


> Right, i heard that it was coming Q1-Q2 next year?


G90? Yeah, that's what they say, but it'll depend on how good ATi's new card is. If more powerful than G80GTX, then you can expect the G90 to appear sooner, probably by mid Q1.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

*After thinking for a while I've made my choice and came up with this 4 questions:*

*1.*I decided to go with:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143080
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131074
Will that wokr out?

*2.* Now, Kalim mentioned something about quad core processor. As of now we decided on this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028
which is dual core. How about something quad? We are looking at not more then $500. Though, if it won't make much difference I wouldn't want spending money on it.

*3. *btw is it going to work with that motherboard? or it needs change?

*4. *And yeah, how about a physics card?
1. Does it help out? is it worth buying?
2. What does it do? I heard it make games run smoother?


----------



## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

the video card you chose and the motherboard will work 

Personally I would go for the dual core and look at upgrading later to a quad, the 6850 is a good choice and should humm along great on the striker with an 8800GTX. The striker will take a quad core.

Physics cards are supposed to be great for games that are designed to use them, not all games do but that will increase i suppose or they may just be a fad or video cards in the future may incorporate them.

I suppose it is always something you can add at a later date


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Physics cards are designed to take the load off of the cpu, but in dx 10 the video card does it so in the future they will be virtually useless.


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

The Asus Striker is actually kind of obselete. I would look at a board with the P35/X68 for Intel and another 680i board for nVidia.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130080
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127020

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128064
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131196



1 g0t 0wn3d said:


> Physics cards are designed to take the load off of the cpu, but in dx 10 the video card does it so in the future they will be virtually useless.


Very true. They will pretty soon not even be on the market. Even in DX9 mode they rarely provide a significant boost in performance.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127020
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128064

which one would you chose?

I still want my computer to have a quad core processor (but I am looking for it to be not more then $500) and this video card 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143080

PS: Never mind on physX card


----------



## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

If you are not going to go with dual video, I would also have a look at the latest chipset from intel, the X38

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131221.

From what i have read it seems to perform well and has support for 1600 FSB I will look furth into it today and see if I can find any short falls

ASUS link

http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=572&l4=0&model=1889&modelmenu=1


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Since it does support the 1600 MHz I would say definitely grab that and some DDR2 800 MHz RAM in dual channel for a very nice setup. Even though you are getting a 1333 MHz FSB, you will have upgrade options later.

Here are my two picks:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131219
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128066

I can't be sure, but I think the SupreneFX audio card Asus includes might support EAX support which would be better for games that support EAX (CS is one).


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I like this one very much, because it has 8 usb! and also a firewire port. not that i was looking for all this, but it is nice to have. also it says it is "Ultra Durable 2, ultra cooling". I guess it is very good. Everything else it says in specifications sound French to me.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128066

*1. *Can you help me find the right memory?
*2. *Can you please help me find a quad-core processor that is work with this card?
*3. *Hopefully it is going to work with this video card. Is it?

_budget: memory + processor = $700_

Some questions:
- Those long heat sinks on the mother board... are they for water cooling? i see some kind of pipes.... if yes, are they any good with out water cooling? or should be taken off?


----------



## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 Kentsfield 2.66GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115027

+

CORSAIR Dominator 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145043

$680 after 40 rebate from ram

you should be fine with the video card you chose.

the pipes you see on the motherboard are called heat pipes, they help dissipate heat and interconnect the heatsinks, they have nothing to do with water cooling


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

*Woot! Awsome! Greatly apriciated! Almost there...*

but some questions first:

*1.* Is this power block still good enough for this motherboard? 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256007

*2.* I read in the reviews that some guys were successful in overclocking this processor over 3.2 MHz. It got me interested. What is overclocking? Is it hard to do? Is it risky? if yes, how dangerous is it? Is it worth it? Will you help me do it? Is there anything else I need to buy for overclocking?

*3. *Hard drives...... Average Seek Time, Average Write Time, Average Latency - logically, I should be interested in lower seek time, higher write time and lower latency when Looking for a hard drive. I am right?

*4. *What do you think about this hard drive?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136111

*5. *Will I need upgrading/seting up bios on the mother board? Will you help me?

*6. *Now that I am getting a stable view of what main parts of my new build are going to be I get a question - Is it hard to connect all parts? If yes, will you help me?


----------



## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

the 850 silverstone should also be fine for your needs

the drive you selected was an IDE drive, you need a SATA drive. Have a look at this

*Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
*
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136073

if you really want performance you can look at getting another hard drive like this to run your Operating system on, it is a 10,000rpm drive as opposed to the normal 7200rpm

*Western Digital Raptor WD740ADFD 74GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136033

As for overclocking, yes you should be able to overclock but i would wait until you get your system up and running and broken in. If you are going to look at overclocking i would look at getting a better heatsink/fan as overclocking generates more heat. Have a look at this one

*ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118019

the reason I say to consider looking now as most of the larger heatsinks have a back plate that needs to be installed on the back of the motherboard so to install it afterwards will involve removing the motherboard out of the case.

Putting it all together is not really that hard, once you get all the pieces we can help you get it all together


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Alright,

I am going with this one you linked to:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136073

*1. *so i won't need this anymore right? (because it is going to go instead of that?)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835888309

*2. *How about the bios? is it hard to setup/configure/update?

*3. *I didn't get the overclocking part. Are you saying I should build the whole system first, then start thinking about overclocking? or I should get the fan as soon as I get motherboard?

*4. *Is overcloking risky? I heard there is a big chance of burning my processor. Is that true? Anything else I should consider?


----------



## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

That hard drive should be fine.

that second cooler you asked about is optional , it just helps keep your video card cooler.

Bios wise you may have to make a few adjustments in terms of boot order and maybe turning the sata controller off raid ( depends if the controller is set to raid by default or not )

You may have to update the bios in the future but shouldn't be needed straight away.

With the cooler I listed that will replace the stock CPU heatsink/fan. If you are thinking of overclocking I would get one now and install it, it will save you hassles later on, even if you don't want to overclock that heatsink will work way better than the stock unit.

On the overclocking front, it is not real hard and you should be able to sit at 10% OC without a problem but if you want to start pushing big overclocks you really shorted the life of your components. I would just get your system built and running for a while before you start thinking of overclocking


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I use the PCI slot cooler even with a double slotted video card. To be honest I haven't checked the temps without the cooler, but I can tell you that with my dual slotted 8600GTS and the cooler I get amazing temps for a GeForce 8 series card.



> With the cooler I listed that will replace the stock CPU heatsink/fan. If you are thinking of overclocking I would get one now and install it, it will save you hassles later on, even if you don't want to overclock that heatsink will work way better than the stock unit.
> 
> On the overclocking front, it is not real hard and you should be able to sit at 10% OC without a problem but if you want to start pushing big overclocks you really shorted the life of your components. I would just get your system built and running for a while before you start thinking of overclocking.


Very good advice. The Zalman coolers are very good and should definitely be in the budget for a $2000 tower. Even the 9700 will work wonders. Remember to make sure the fan is blowing so that the air goes through the fins and then directly into an exhaust fan in the rear of the computer.


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



TheMatt said:


> The Asus Striker is actually kind of obselete. I would look at a board with the P35/X68 for Intel and another 680i board for nVidia.


There's two boards; Striker and Striker Extreme. The Striker hardly got updated and had many problems common to the chipset for months but the Striker Extreme is the best 680i board out there, in terms of performance and overclocking. However, 680i chipset was finicky right from the start until the last revision of these boards 3 months ago, which has made them monsters. They're also the best memory/gaming and SLi boards for Intel out there yet.


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Ahh, I didn't notice the difference. In that case my advice about the Striker does not apply to the Striker Extreme you were looking at.

@ Kalim: Do you know if the SupremeFX audio card on the Striker Extreme supports EAX? I suspect it does not have a separate audiochipset onboard but rather uses the ADI 1988B on the motherboard which I don't think supports EAX.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I think a motherboard that I have right now is good enough + I like it (for a lot of usb, firewire and stuff like that.) So I think we are going to keep it. So, as of now we god:

GIGABYTE GA-X38-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Ultra Durable 2, Ultra Cooling Intel Motherboard - Retail - I like it.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 Kentsfield 2.66GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail - just the way I wanted it.

BFG Tech BFGR88768GTXOCE GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail - i like it

CORSAIR Dominator 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail - i wanted more, but you guys said it is useless.

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM - two of this. 

SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V / EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail - not too expensive but will do the job

Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Sound Card - something I chose on my own

MITSUMI FA405M BLACK 13-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail Someone suggested something else, it was a little expensiever with a lot of functions. But all I really want it to do is read and write an SD card =)

LITE-ON Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 8X DVD-R DL 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM IDE Burner with LightScribe Technology - Retail I already have one. It isn't from the same manufacturer, but it is a black dvd burner. So i will use it to have 2 dvd writers.

ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail Something you guys suggested and I like it.

AZiO BTD603-132 USB 2.0 Bluetooth Adapter - Retail Something I wanted for a long time. So that I can do a lot of stuff. I think there is also a software that allows you to control your cellphone with your computer. answer calls, get text messages. I'll do some research on that.

Microsoft N71-00007S Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB Wired Optical Wheel Mouse - OEM - I get this so that if my MX Air runes out of battery (which happens to me a lot, because MX Air doesn't have a battery indicater... You only get a message when it is 20% low) so that I have something to back me up.

now....... I need someone to answer these *four* questions:

1. Will I be able to fit all that in Raidmax Sirius box?
2. Are all part going to connect to each other?
3. Are all parts going to work with each other?
4. Is there anything else I should consider?


After that I will be ready to buy........


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

That looks nice. The one thing I have to ask is the Q6700 and extra 266 MHz really worth the extra $250? You probably won't even notice the difference between the two. Everything else looks good. 1600 MHz FSB Ready. :smile:

One more thing. After a bunch of research, I have concluded that *DDR3 RAM running at the same speed and timings, and with the same data bus width as equivalent DDR2 RAM will yield a higher bandwidth due to 8-bit data prefetching rather than the traditional 4-bit data prefetching of DDR2 because there is a higher transfer rate from the RAM chips to the memory bus.* If you want to go with some high end, high speed RAM, go for some DDR3 800 MHz or DDR3 1066 MHz RAM.


----------



## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Well Ervand I think you have a very nice setup there. I am confident that they will all work together and give you all you expect, you may have to jump on the case cover to get all that good gear in ( only joking ).
I think you have it all covered


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Hm, yeah, but that one processor wasn't quadcore it was dualcore.

regarding the memory - i think ddr3 is way to expensive? isn't it? if not would you give me a link? because all i could find was ddr3 memory that was way to expensive for me.

as far as that I am satisfied with the set we come up with by this moment, so i will wait for few more replies and start buying stuff. 

I won't be able to buy everything at once, since i only got 1.2k, but hopefuly it won't take too long to get everything.


----------



## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I am sure Matt was talking about the quad below the one you have listed

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115017

$279

It is an option but in the end it is your computer and your choice 

DDR3 is around the 3 to $400 mark and then you will have to change motherboards to one that will take DDR3

EG: *ASUS P5E3 Deluxe/WiFi-AP LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard - $349*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131218

*ASUS P5K3 DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail $240*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131181

*GIGABYTE GA-X38T-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Ultra Durable 2, Ultra Cooling Intel Motherboard - $349*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128068

*CORSAIR 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - $303
*
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145181

*CORSAIR 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN3X2048-1333C9 - Retail $311*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145183

*CORSAIR 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - $399*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145182


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

=)

yes! I am going to go with that processor you linked to and this motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128068


DDR3 - help me choose.. i understand that they are pretty much the same except:

1) $303.00 one's speed is DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500)
2) $311.00 one's speed is DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600)
3) $399.00 one's speed is DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) but it has a feature - Silver Heat Spreader

I don't know which one is faster 1 or 2 and i don't know anything about silver heat spreaders =)

can you help me choose the one that is going to best fit my system?


----------



## blackduck30

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Ok this is just my personal opinion and i know others may see otherwise but i think the ASUS board offers more in terms of memory speed compatability and also it has PCI-E 2.0 slots for the video which is the next standard, you also get WI-FI as well, the heat pipe system looks way better on the asus board as well.

either way for the extra $8 I would think about the DDR3 1333


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Right now anything faster than DDR3 800 MHz is overkill, but the availability of it is not that high. Go with some DDR3 1066 MHz RAM with standard timings and you will have a great setup.


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



TheMatt said:


> @ Kalim: Do you know if the SupremeFX audio card on the Striker Extreme supports EAX? I suspect it does not have a separate audiochipset onboard but rather uses the ADI 1988B on the motherboard which I don't think supports EAX.


The (Analog Devices) ADI 1988B 8-channel HD audio CODEC is on the riser card itself to cancel noise and interference, and its the same one used on the ASUS M2N32-SLI Deluxe Wi-Fi Edition (which was the best HD audio CODEC for a long while). ADI supports 7.1 channel surround sound, jack retasking, enumeration, jack sensing, DTS connect, echo cancellation, multi-streaming and EAX 2.0. Here's the onboard chip:


Most gamers would need a separate dedicated sound card, especially as it doesn't have an onboard processor too.









One of the major plus points between all DDR2 boards is none of them will run or support >DDR2-1200 without problems and weak performance, but the 680i boards have been known to run 1200-1300MHz at good timings and performance scaling perfectly, equaling DDR3 1600 6-6-6 1T performance.


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I personally would not mess with DDR3 at this time, way too much money for sooooo little if any gain ?????


so many of the motherboard makers know DDR3 is a weak player, thats why their is no big marketing push right now for DDR3, they cant justify the cost for the marginal performance gains.

most board makers are designing boards that are DDR3 "usuable" but I dont seem them blowing their horns about it ????????????????


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I personally would take a 680 board if you gave me a choice of either the 680 board or the X38 I would take the 680

the X38 chipset has yet to deliver *anything* to be considered an improvement over its predessors, hell the P35 has way more excitement than the X38 does ?????



http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3120



newer is not always better >>>>> for every great chipset there are two donkeys that will follow


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

The purpose of this comparison of DDR3 and DDR2 was to determine whether DDR3 really brought any better performance to the Core 2 platform. However, the test was designed so that any performance improvements that were brought by the new P35 (Bearlake) chipset would be captured and could be isolated. P35 supports either DDR2 or DDR3, and we found no real difference in current performance of DDR2 and DDR3 on the P35 platform. Both were equally faster than the same DDR2 on the P965 chipset.

That means the real performance surprise in these tests is that the revised memory controller in the Bearlake chipset improves buffered memory bandwidth by 16% to 18%, with a real-world improvement in gaming and application performance of 2 to 5%. This is a pretty impressive improvement for a memory controller update. To repeat an old saying please remember that memory is just one small part of the system, so a 2% to 5% increase in gaming from the memory controller alone means the P35 memory controller is significantly improved over the P965 chipset.

DDR3 at introduction is saddled with pretty dismal memory timings. As you can see in our test bed chart, SPD timings are 6-6-6-15 at DDR3-800, 7-7-7-20 at DDR3-1066 and 9-9-9-25 at DDR3-1333. Despite the slower timings DDR3 runs at higher speeds than any DDR2 we have tested, and we will have official JEDEC timings for DDR3 to 1600 with the current JEDEC standard, and possibly ever faster with any future JEDEC update.

Even at slow timings, DDR3 shows a great deal of promise. It is as fast as very fast DDR2 on the P965, but it can't match the same DDR2 memory performance on the P35. DDR3 can run at higher speeds than DDR2 and as faster memory timings inevitably appear DDR3 will be the right choice for computer enthusiasts looking for the best performance. While we can't prove better latency or significantly better performance with the slow timings of launch DDR3, the evidence is all there in these tests. DDR3 will get faster in speed and will provide the best performance in the long term.

That brings up the more difficult question: what to buy today? That is a much more complicated question. If you are looking for a new system, definitely choose the new P35 chipset over the P965, as it is a better memory performer. At launch we are told DDR3 will be much more expensive than DDR2. Prices are expected to be about $480 for a 2GB DDR3 kit. At that lofty price it is difficult to recommend DDR3 over DDR2, when DDR2 performs just the same on the P35 chipset and decent 2GB kits can be had for under $150 now.

Two conditions would shift the recommendation to DDR3 instead. When DDR3 prices come close to DDR2 then buy DDR3 instead. More significantly, when DDR3 becomes available at higher speeds and/or faster timings then definitely choose DDR3 if you are looking for performance - even if the price is higher.

We asked many memory vendors when they thought price parity and fast DDR3 timings might be available. The more skeptical said not until late 2008, while the more optimistic felt it would happen by the end of 2007. Until either or both events happens there is no compelling reason to buy DDR3. However, there is no doubt at all that DDR3 is in your future as the top-performing memory you can buy. Some will also buy it because it is the future and they can likely carry their DDR3 supporting board a little further into the future. 

AMD's launch of their Phenom processors will also be something to consider for it's potential impact on DDR3 adoption. Phenom will initially launch with DDR2 only. If AMD can regain the performance crown, the shift to DDR3 may be further delayed, just like what happened with the DDR to DDR2 shift. 

*The winner for now is the P35 chipset, whether you feed it DDR2 with fast timings or higher speed DDR3. The 1333 bus speed introduced by P35 is also a winner - at least in terms of overclocking. As stated in the review, almost every Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Quad we tried in the P35 ASUS P5K and P5K3 ran at 1333 FSB at the default multiplier and default voltage. The only processors that required any voltage increase were the top line Core 2 Extreme processors. This free 25% overclock, which still allows everything else in the system to run at default values, is exciting. It is so exciting we have to wonder how long Intel will allow this in the marketplace.*
DDR3 may not be in your buying plan today, but it will certainly be there in the future. As DDR3 prices drop and/or timings improve, it will be the performance choice. For today, the best performance choice is either today's DDR2 or tomorrow's DDR3 on the P35 chipset instead.


http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2989&p=1


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

lets not forget; it was the core 2 CPU's that pulled DDR2's feet out of the fire; because the release of only DDR2 showed nothing to write home about when compared to DDR 400 with tight timings.


so in essence; until a *NEW* cpu can enhance the capability of DDR3, there wont be much there for performance increase.


The future may well improve the DDR3; but that wont help anyone paying ridiculous DDR3 memory prices now, especially for whats on the market now, the big latency stuff 

DDR3 IMHO is not mature enough to jump on that band wagon.


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

AMD has stated that it will not integrate DDR3 support into its memory controllers until late 2008 or early 2009.


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Joe's right.

Abit dropped DDR3 for all X38 boards its making and Gigabyte said they won't support DDR3 for their highest end X48 releasing soon, but only DDR2 (a bid to get mutual boycott).

The P35 boards are better clockers than the X38 boards I've seen so far (3 vs 14) and in my opinion, the Gigabyte P35 series is the holy grail in overclock, stability, performance and memory alongside ASUS P35 series. They out-do X38 boards. Gigabyte P35 DS4 hits 520-580MHz FSB consistently on air cooling, and plus 600FSB on extreme cooling which is needed if you want to overclock the new Penryns with low multipliers.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Stop speaking French =)
so, what should I do? =/
Should I go with the old set up in message #46
except change a processor to:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128068
?


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I would not get the board in post #46


I would rather get a P35 chipset motherboard >>>> the Intel X38 has nothing new to offer; and it sure as hell cant overclock as well as the P35's


have a close look at the Gigabyte GA-P35- DQ6 and other boards

make sure you can find 16X speed PCI express video and 1333 MHZ FSB


or the asus board Blackduck 30 has posted


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

http://www.giga-byte.com.tw/Product...VenderType=Intel&CPUType=socket+775#Intel P35





look under the P35's >>>>>> I "believe" the DQ6 is usually their best board


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

http://www.giga-byte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2637





has 1066 memory support too


this is not an SLI board >>>> its a crossfire board


but no way in hell will anyone need more than ONE 8800 *GTX *


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

The DQ6 is the highest end board, but the DS4 will probably suit most people fine.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Well, here is a new set up. Can some one take a look to check if:
1) All parts are going to connect to each other.
2) All parts are going to work with each other.​
I have also included a new piece. I am not sure if that's the kind I need. Just like someone suggested - it is a hard drive with 10k rpm (for the main system). I am not sure if I should be getting it... Is it worth it? Are programs going to run faster? or it only reflects the file transfer time. If yes, then I will keep it with that other hard drive (the one I wanted at first, 500GB)

GIGABYTE GA-X38-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Ultra Durable 2, Ultra Cooling Intel Motherboard - Retail 

 Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

BFG Tech BFGR88768GTXOCE GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

CORSAIR Dominator 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail 

Western Digital Raptor X WD1500AHFDRTL 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - Retail

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V / EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail 

Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Sound Card 

MITSUMI FA405M BLACK 13-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail 

LITE-ON Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 8X DVD-R DL 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM IDE Burner with LightScribe Technology - Retail 

AZiO BTD603-132 USB 2.0 Bluetooth Adapter - Retail 

 ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail

*$2075* no tax, no shipping.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Looks like a killer system


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

awesome system ray:


nice system


I would try to get an OEM raptor rather than the retail version, the OEM has a longer warranty period ? dont ask me why?


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

If you can wait for this RAM to come in stock, get it and then tweak the timings (particularly the latency).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231149

Looks like it will be an awesome rig. :smile:


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

will you help me tweak the memory? because I don't know anything about it.

btw, someone knows what is a difference between OEM and Retail?








So.... now we have:


GIGABYTE GA-X38-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Ultra Durable 2, Ultra Cooling Intel Motherboard - Retail 

 Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

BFG Tech BFGR88768GTXOCE GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail 

Western Digital Raptor X WD1500AHFD 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V / EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail 

Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Sound Card 

MITSUMI FA405M BLACK 13-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail 

LITE-ON Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 8X DVD-R DL 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM IDE Burner with LightScribe Technology - Retail 

AZiO BTD603-132 USB 2.0 Bluetooth Adapter - Retail 

 ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail

*$2005* no tax, no shipping.

Oh wow.... only 5 bucks more then I planed =) Though, I don't mind spending a little more, so if there is an option that would make a segnificant change - let me know.


And as always, I want to be VERY sure everything is going to connect and work well, so I am asking this two questions again:

*1.) Will everything connect?
2.) Will everything work?*


3.) I just read that that memory needs a motherboard that can be adjusted to valtage 2.0~2.1. Does my do it?


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

For OEM and Retail, it depends what it is. I usually only go with OEM for things like hard disk and optical disk drives. Sometimes I also get OEM RAM. Everything else I get retail. CPUs especially you should get retail so you get a heatsink, instructions, and a warranty. Only overclockers should go for the OEM processors.

For the RAM, you will actually need one of these:

 GIGABYTE GA-P35C-DS3R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard

GIGABYTE GA-X38T-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Ultra Durable 2, Ultra Cooling Intel Motherboard

The main rationale behind the X38 right now is future 1600 MHz FSB support, but that may not be worth the extra money. The DDR3 will not work in the X38 board you have listed above, only these two.

Memory voltages are very misleading. They list the voltages the RAM can handle, but the default for DDR2 is 1.8V and for DDR3 1.5V. You shouldn't adjust the RAM voltage unless overclocking or tweaking the timings.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Nevermind, I think it was good anough. I changed the memory back to what it was and motherboard remained unchanged. Though a hard drive is still OEM one, not Retail....

GIGABYTE GA-X38-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Ultra Durable 2, Ultra Cooling Intel Motherboard - Retail 

 Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

BFG Tech BFGR88768GTXOCE GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

G.SKILL CORSAIR Dominator 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail 

Western Digital Raptor X WD1500AHFD 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V / EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail 

Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Sound Card 

MITSUMI FA405M BLACK 13-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail 

LITE-ON Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 8X DVD-R DL 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM IDE Burner with LightScribe Technology - Retail 

AZiO BTD603-132 USB 2.0 Bluetooth Adapter - Retail 

 ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail

*$1985* no tax, no shipping.




*Anything else we wanna be looking at?*


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

If you are going with DDR2 you can save some money by dropping down to DDR2 800 MHz.

Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory

This memory will not be any slower when installed in an Intel system with a 1600 MHz FSB or slower. Your processor has a 1333 MHz FSB.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Actually matt his is 1066


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

The FSB is a bottleneck when running in dual channel so the extra bandwidth is not utilized.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Yes, i was just stating that his cpu has a fsb of 1066


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Oh I missed he switched to the Q6600. Never mind then. Go with the 800 MHz RAM and the Q6600.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

=), Ether wya its good to have some headroom for overclocking.


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

If you bump the FSB on the Q6600 up to 333 MHz, you will hit 3 GHz with a 1333 MHz FSB and essentially have a QX6850. If you can achieve this OC stably or even the CPU running at 2.66 GHz (8x multiplier instead of stock 9x) with a 333 MHz FSB you will see the biggest improvement. The 800 MHz RAM will allow the RAM to remain perfectly stable up to a 400 MHz FSB.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Matt. all this really confuses me....
lets do it this way......

If I am going to change my mother board and memory (the ones that are in my post 72) to what you suggested in your post 69 and 71 = is my computer going to run faster?

Because some of you guys are saying DDR3 is better, some say it isn't worth it...... Please consider that I am only interested to build it ones.... Yes, I can't afford to get all the hardware for ~$2k, since I only got $1.200 now, but I will be buying stuff a little later when I earn more money... Though, I am not interested in buying something today, but upgrading the same part tomorrow because something new and better came out. I am going to go with the same set up for couple of years and then build a new computer...

So, what do you say? DDR3 or DDR2?


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

With the quad 6600 any memory more than DDR2 800 is a major waste of time and effort >>>>>> it cant use it!


its like buying a ten gallon pail to carry 4 gallons of water


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

If I were in your situation I would go for the Gigabyte P35C-DS3R and get some DDR3 RAM. The thing with DDR3 is that it isn't the faster speed itself that makes it faster, but basically the different way the actual memory chips communicate with the memory bus.

While DDR3 800 MHz RAM does exist, I have yet to find any. If you do happen to have the opportunity to purchase some, then get that, however if not the lowest frequency DDR3 memory is DDR3 1066 MHz. Keep the RAM synced with the CPU (its a BIOS setting and will probably be enabled by default) and the RAM will have closer to the same throughput as the CPU which is always a good thing.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I decided to go with DDR3 and compatible motherboard...

So here we go. I did post a lot of this kind of messages... in fact, I don't mind! When it comes to making my system perfect I am down for posting 50 of this kinds of messages as long as my system gets better and satisfies me more and more for a reasonable amount of money.

*So if there is anything else anybody wants to add or suggest - let me know. I am appreciating this...*



GIGABYTE GA-X38T-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Ultra Durable 2, Ultra Cooling Intel Motherboard - Retail 

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

BFG Tech BFGR88768GTXOCE GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail 

Western Digital Raptor X WD1500AHFD 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V / EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail 

Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Sound Card 

MITSUMI FA405M BLACK 13-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail 

LITE-ON Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 8X DVD-R DL 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM IDE Burner with LightScribe Technology - Retail 

AZiO BTD603-132 USB 2.0 Bluetooth Adapter - Retail 

ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail

*$2700* no tax, no shipping.


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

This is just for general information on this topic. It will be worthwhile for you guys to check on these links where standard, latest and fastest DDR2 and DDR3 on new motherboards were compared: 
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/mainboard/ddr3-rmma-page3.html (general use)
http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/ddr2_vs_ddr3/ (general use)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159190 (for overclocking)

As you will see, until you reach DDR3-1550, it cannot beat or level DDR2. At those speeds it beats DDR2-970 but not DDR2-1100 or above.

Note: it took DDR3-1.7GHz @ 6-5-5-13 1T @ 2.36V and 1.8V VMCH to beat DDR2-1.2GHz @ 4-4-2-4 @ 2.66V. 

No one without extreme cooling and top motherboards will get 1T and those timings at such clocks, neither those voltages. DDR2 volts is not extremely high but DDR3 volts is extremely high and you'll kill your motherboard and RAM extremely quickly with that as he did.

2x1GB on X38 DDR3-2060MHz 8-6-6-18 gets 13333MB/s memory bandwidth in EVEREST read. Now that will not be reached without extremely high NB voltage which will kill the DDR3 IC and the NB after a few uses. Running anything above 2.0V DDR3 1900 and below CAS 10 will kill those RAM sticks very quickly. I've played with DDR3 since July now so I'm aware first hand. Below that, the latencies on DDR3 are too high to even come close to high end DDR2 performance (such as CAS 5 1250).

Theoretically, DDR3 is supposed to have higher bandwidth as Matt mentioned due to double the data rate per pin and prefetch buffer but that won't be gained real-life until you start going into high speeds above 1500MHz while async with the FSB, *just* like it was with DDR2-667 being beat by DDR-400 until you start going higher and dropping latencies.

I will also be building a powerful system soon, and I can assure you it won't have DDR3 in it, though it is an option for me. I'm not a proponent of spending 100,000 on a house with slippery plastic floors that I can have for 50,000 next door to it with marble floors. :grin:

It's your choice what you do, this is just my take on it as why I won't be buying it anytime soon for my professional systems. There's tons more out there even online on this topic but I just don't have the time to search it all out these days.


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

It is interesting that you bring that up Kalim. Are you saying that if running the DDR3 RAM in sync with the FSB (aka 533 MHz) it won't be faster than DDR2 in sync?

If that is the case you could seriously save money and go with some DDR2 800 MHz, run it in sync with the FSB (533 MHz), and drop the latency to 3 and the command rate to 1T even in dual channel.

Right now my main logic behind DDR3 was the larger data prefetching, but if that will only make it faster at speeds the rest of the system can't use, there is really no point. I will have to look more into this.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

*Kalim, you say this is the best way to go?*

$530 - BFG Tech BFGR88768GTXOCE GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card

$280 - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

$280 - GIGABYTE GA-X38-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Ultra Durable 2, Ultra Cooling Intel Motherboard - Retail

$190 - SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail

$185 - Western Digital Raptor X WD1500AHFD 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

$180 - CORSAIR Dominator 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

$110 - Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gbs Hard Drive - OEM

$65 - ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail

$65 - Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Sound Card

$35 - LITE-ON Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 8X DVD-R DL 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM IDE Burner with LightScribe Technology - Retail

$20 - AZiO BTD603-132 USB 2.0 Bluetooth Adapter - Retail

$10 - MITSUMI FA405M BLACK 13-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail

$10 - Microsoft N71-00007S Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB Wired Optical Wheel Mouse - OEM

Well if that is it... I am very satisfied! because it came up to be better then I was expecting with out spending more then 2 grands. Looks like that 2 video card I was looking forward to get was a mistake and I am glad we found it.....

All together it rounds up to: *$1960*


and just like always, I got to ask these two questions:
*1) Is everything going to connect to each other?
2) Is everything going to work with each other?*


----------



## cheapcheat

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



linderman said:


> awesome system ray:
> 
> 
> nice system
> 
> 
> I would try to get an OEM raptor rather than the retail version, the OEM has a longer warranty period ? dont ask me why?


It's because system builders are less likely to return hard drives than somebody that knows nothing about computers. Linderman is right, you should get OEM all the time. 

As for ddr3, you should wait it out until it becomes cheap enough.

I think you would be happier getting a better CPU than a 8800gtx video card since you will only be playing video games occasionally.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

The quad core will actually only get faster becaus emore programs will use all the cores


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

If you do get DDR2, as I pointed out earlier, don't waste your money on DDR2 faster than 800 MHz.

Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory

As for switching the CPU, you will not notice a difference between the Q6600 and the QX6850 ($1000 more) or the Q6700 ($250 more) unless you do a lot of Photoshop, CAD, Prime95, or WavePad. Anything else including gaming will not benefit noticeably from a CPU upgrade. Even the E6850 will give the same or possibly better performance. A video card upgrade however will almost always benefit any type of 3D Gaming and there is always some way to increase the image quality.

My advice is to keep the current GPU and CPU or switch to the E6850.


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

any of the choices discussed in the last 20 replies are all excellent! we are now splitting hairs




all suggestions are awesome top of the line systems ray:


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Yeh really you wont notice to much of a difference.


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



TheMatt said:


> It is interesting that you bring that up Kalim. Are you saying that if running the DDR3 RAM in sync with the FSB (aka 533 MHz) it won't be faster than DDR2 in sync?


Hi Matt

My apologies, there was a mistake. When I said running DDR3 ≤1500 *async* with FSB won't beat DDR2, I meant "*in sync*". Let me expand a little.

Memory perfromance (Intel) depends greatly on motherboard strap, FSB, Northbridge latency, memory controller, chipset, memory speed and memory latencies.

P35 is the best memory tweaking, highest memory overclocking and lowest latency chipset out now (better than X38 in this department).

If you test ASUS P5K (DDR2) vs. P5K3 (DDR3) using the same frequencies and latencies, the performance is approx. the same.

BUT at native stock DDR2 and DDR3 latencies, this is the scenario:

At FSB 266 (1066), DDR2 wins.
At FSB 333 (1333), DDR2 wins.
At FSB 450 (1800), DDR2 wins.
At FSB 500 (2000), DDR2 wins.

If you run DDR2-800 at 3-4-3-9 it beats DDR3-1067 7-7-7-20. 
If you run DDR2-1067 at 4-4-3-11 timings, it beats DDR3-1333 at 9-9-9-25. 
If you run DDR2-1250 at 5-5-5-12, it beats DDR3-1600 at 8-8-8-24. *Using best memory straps, even when synchronous to the PSB.

The only way to get faster DDR3 performance than DDR2 is by overclocking the timings. Once you get low latency DDR3 wins DDR2, but only at higher frequencies above 1500MHz.

DDR3-1500 at 5-6-6 will beat DDR2-1250 at 4-4-4.

One other problem is the fact that the highest JEDEC approved DDR3 modules now are at DDR3-1333 at 9-9-9-24 timings, DDR3-1066 at 7-7-7-20 and DDR3-800 runs at 6-6-6-15, whilst the best DDR2 modules are at DDR2-1250 5-5-5-15 timings. Crucial Ballistix and other highest end extreme modules can be found at DDR3-1600 8-8-8-24. The highest P35 chipset (P5K3 for instance) supports only DDR3-1333 and does not allow below DDR3-800 6-6-6-8.

Check the Neoseeker link and this out as well: http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2989



> Right now my main logic behind DDR3 was the larger data prefetching, but if that will only make it faster at speeds the rest of the system can't use, there is really no point. I will have to look more into this.


If you can overclock (with more voltage needed definitely) DDR3 to low latencies on a P35 or better motherboard, it will eventually beat DDR2. Just like the case with DDR2 over DDR was 9 months back.

The only person pushing DDR3 right now is Intel, because they need higher bandwidth, and that they can only get with high DDR3 frequencies from 1500-2200MHz.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



TheMatt said:


> As for switching the CPU, you will not notice a difference between the Q6600 and the QX6850 ($1000 more) or the Q6700 ($250 more) unless you do a lot of Photoshop, CAD, Prime95, or WavePad.


Well, just like I said I do do a lot of Photoshop, CAD and 3D graphics. So, should I consider downgrading the memory to the one you just linked and upgrading my processor to Q6700? 

hopefully memory does not effect what I am going to do with Photoshop/CAD/3d studio. If it does, then I should keep the memory but still upgrade the processor.

Though, if an upgrade from current processor to Q6700 won't make much difference for Photoshop I wouldn't be interested in it.


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Ahh, I am getting you confused with another person in another thread. Sorry about that.

To be honest, I really couldn't justify the cost of the Q6700 over the Q6600 for the extra 266 MHz. The E6850 would be the best option for you IMO.

As for the memory, Kalim stated something very crucial:


> Memory perfromance (Intel) depends greatly on motherboard strap, *FSB*, Northbridge latency, memory controller, *chipset*, *memory speed* and *memory latencies*.


The FSB is the big bottleneck that makes DDR3 1333 MHz in dual channel pointless over DDR3 800 MHz. If you can get lower latencies as Kalim stated, then it will be worth it, but natively DDR2 has lower latencies and is about the same as DDR3 in terms of performance. This would make the extra cost of DDR3 not worth it right now. And until Intel systems can utilize faster RAM like DDR3 1333 MHz and DDR3 1600 MHz (dual channel), DDR3 RAM will not really be practical unfortunately.

Therefore, my final recommendation is this:

Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 3.0 GHz
Gigabyte X38-DQ6 or P35-DS4
Crucial Balistix DDR2 800 MHz


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

*1. *did you mean
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115027
? The one you just said is dual, I wanted quad.

*2. *I am wondering.. Is Core 2 Quad faster then Core 2 Duo?

*3.* in the video card specifications it says something about DDR3. it will still work with my ddr2 motherboard?

*4. *so XP can support only up to 2GB of memory. Vista supports more? or no?


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. I would not recommend spending double on Q6700 over Q6600. Q6600 at 2.4GHz can *easily* and *definitely* be overclocked to at least 2.8GHz (which is faster than Q6700). If you want a quad-core, stick with the best seller since July: Q6600.

2. Depends on the application. Only applications supporting more than 2 threads will see a benefit with 4 cores over 2 cores. Video editing, graphics work, imaging (all multimedia) encoding, decoding, compression and decompression 4 cores are faster than 2 cores (at the same frequency). But with most other applications out now, 4 cores are equal to 2 cores (at the same frequency) since most applications, especially older ones do not execute multiple threads each core can work on in parallel (they have serial code).

3. DDR2 is supported by all new motherboard in the P35 and X38 lineup (independent of GPU).

4. XP or Vista 32-bit, neither can 'see' and use 4GB of RAM (many times no more than 2.86GB) as some is reserved for hardware I/O mapping, but 64-bit editions can utilize all the 4GB of RAM.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



Kalim said:


> 3. DDR2 is supported by all new motherboard in the P35 and X38 lineup (independent of GPU).
> 
> 4. XP or Vista 32-bit, neither can 'see' and use 4GB of RAM (many times no more than 2.86GB) as some is reserved for hardware I/O mapping, but 64-bit editions can utilize all the 4GB of RAM.


*1. *No, what I meant was should I be considering changing a video card? or mother board? so that they work with each other, or all this crap doesn't matter anyways and they will work with each other.

*2. *is there the same version of Q6600 accept 64bit?


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. Not exactly sure what you mean. The 8800GTX will be plenty powerful but you might also want to look at the 8800GT which will be released soon. It will be more powerful than the 8800GTS, run a lot cooler, and be about half as much as the 8800GTX. All the hardware listed in post #86 will work, and the only thing I would change is the RAM to what I suggested in post #89 and possibly the CPU to the E6850.

2. The Q6600 has EM64T which means it will support x86-64 (64-bit) operating systems as well as the traditional x86 32-bit operating systems.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

*You guys are really educating me!! I am very thankful for all these answers that I receive from you............ *

1. Is this a bad idea to install 64-bit windows? I heard that a lot of applications don't work with 64-bit because they were made for 32-bit. *Is that so?* I would love to get 64-bit because I know most of heavy-graphical software (like Photoshop, CAD) support it, but is it worth it if most of my other programs won't work? *Is there a way to get them work? or I have a wrong information about 64-bit processors?*

2. Another reason why I want to have 64-bit is because I could buy 4 sticks of that memory that you last linked to. I know it is too much for some people, but sometimes it would be good for a really heavy multitasking. Sometimes my Photoshop files get to 1GB... because I like working in a very big resolution. In fact, resolution I am working in right now is nothing if compared to what I want it to be, but anything bigger is going to make my existing computer take off, fly away, and never come back :laugh: . *My questions is - On the motherboard we've selected I see 4 places to plug memory in, but they are different colors. What does that mean? Is my mother board capable of taking 4x 1GB memory sticks?*

3. *By any chance someone knows when 8800GT comes out??* If it really going to cost half of what 8800GTX costs I am going to go for 2 video cards.

4. Is that motherboard that we've selected capable of taking *2 video cards*?

*Thanks!*


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. You will have to buy/find 64-bit applications for a 64-bit OS. You won't be able to get 32-bit applications running on it. 64-bit Vista is quite a bit *faster* with the same system setup for integer, fp, stream and memory operations.

2. Yes it can take 4x1GB.

3. 2 weeks time it should be in retail. MSRP is about $250USD.

4. Yes, but only two ATI cards will link together in X-fire. No SLi on an Intel chipset (meaning no two nVidia cards will pair up).


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Hmm, I thought I responded to this thread. Maybe not?

Anyway, the only thing I would have to add is to look at the P6N Diamond (and drop the X-Fi because the P6N comes with one) for SLi. Also, Linux even with the 32-bit kernel will use 4 GB of RAM relatively quickly.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

awesome, I am going for that video card!
I hope I didn't over welm you guys with my noob questions and you are still, not roaming, but at least willing to help ray: ,because I have some questions:

*1. *would you let me know when it is out?

*2. *I guess we would have to change a motherboard so that I can get 2 of those. Can you/someone suggest me few options?

*3. *Any specifications are known about that video card? Like how many MB it is going to be and stuff like that?

*4. *Btw, memory is faster when number that stands for the speed is bigger, or smaller?

ray:

*EDIT:*

I am sorry I missed your message Matt!

*5. *are you talking about this? 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130080
and is that what I should be getting?

*6. * Is "Quad-core" and "Core 2 Quad" the same thing? If not then this motherboard won't work with a processor we have right now.

*7.* Is Core Duo and Core Dual same thing? That's just for education 

ray:


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

ervand




read this article, it "should" save you $$$$$$$



http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=674&p=0


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Core 2 Duo is a Dual core processor using Intel's Core 2 architecture. In other words, it is a name for one particular design of a dual core processor. Same thing for the Core 2 Quad & Quad Core.

Yes, I was talking about that board. It even has an onboard Creative X-Fi chip so you don't need the dedicated sound card. :smile:


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

8800GT is a good GPU but when it retails depends on which store and where you live. Some places can get hold of one even now but very expensive unless you test hardware and others usually get them 2 weeks after launch in limited qunatities (sell out quick). Start prices usually be high when demand is high, especially where quantity is low.

Quad core is referred to for any 4-core CPU (4 processors) and Core 2 Quad has 4 cores, so its a notation for the same thing. "Core 2 Quad" is just a label how Intel marketed their own Core 2 (architecture) Quad (4 core).

Core 2 Duo follows a similar notation but with dual cores (2 processors).


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

You can buy the 8800GT here at $230: http://www.clubit.com/product_detail.cfm?itemno=CA9654041&cmp=AFC-CJ_CBIT

MSI Geforce 8800GT OC 512MB 256bit GDDR3 PCI-Express x16 HDCP & SLI Ready Video

256-bit GeForce 8800 GT (660MHz clock)
512MB 256-bit 1ns GDDR3 Memory (950MHz clock) (1900MHz effective)
Supports SLI multi-GPU Technology
Supports Pure Video HD & H.264 decoding & Model 4.0 support
Microsoft DirectX 10, OpenGL 2.0 and Shader Model 4.0 support
Supports HDTV function and HDTV cable enclosed
Features Dual Dual-link DVI-I / D-SUB (by adapter) / TV-OUT
Dual-link HDCP capable. 

It was in stock 3 hours ago and is now sold out. :sigh:


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

$230 is still a good price considering it is the 512MB version.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I don't get it.

*1. *So this card is new, it is about to came out (even though it is already selling online), it cost $230 now, which is going to change and cost way less............... Considering all that it is going to work way better then $530 GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit???????? and if I put 2 of them it is going to be even better?????????????????????????

*2. *Can someone explain the MB thing? How come some video cards that have less MB memory are better then the others? I used to think it is all about the MBs.... more MBs = better the card is...

*3. *What about the bits? that new card is 8800GT is only 256-bits vs. 8800GTX that is 384-bit. How can it be better? what are those bits?

*4. *So, this motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130080
going to work with this processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115017
and this memory
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146565
?

*5. *Also one more questions that didn't get answered:
"Btw, memory is faster when number that stands for the speed is bigger, or smaller?"



*If you guys could answer in the same pattern (I mean 1,2,3...) it would be very nice! This makes it easier to understand all this content and helps keep it all organized. *


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. MSRP is what nVidia suggested for them to sell 8800GT in two weeks when it officially releases. Some retailers break the deadlines and release them earlier as the above store has and it's done it at low prices (v.good price per performance). 
8800GTX is better than 8800GT in absolute performance, but 8800GT is new, has better technologies, at 65nm, lower heat, lower power draw, higher overclock headroom, higher shader clock speed (which makes a big difference) and is half the price for only a little less performance as well as supporting some extra's (such as processing more video acceleration on GPU). 8800GTS which is supposed to be better than 8800GT and is higher priced but actually performs worse. 
Specification numbers do not mean everything, they are only indicators (on similar technology). How we decide what is good, better or worse is by testing them real-life in various applications we use. Real-life, the difference between 8800GTX and 8800GT (stock) is not too much at all (until you go DX10). 
2 of those cards can work in SLI, yes, with about a x1.8 performance increase over one card, in the best case scenario.

2. It differs on all cards, but so far, 256-512MB is the sweet mark. A card with 256MB will not do better than one at 512MB at the same specifications at high resolutions and detail settings.

3. The bits number is how wide the memory data bus is. Anything above 128 is good, the more the bits, the larger the "potential" data transfer capacity in the same time frame. Yes 256-bit and less memory does make a difference at high detail and higher resolutions, but still not enough at the usual usage and 8800GT still beats every other card but the 8800GTX and 8800 Ultra (which are more than 2x its price).

4. Yes.

5. Memory is only faster if it has higher speed and lower latencies (and better or equal technologies). It's tricky to compare DDR vs DDR2 vs DDR3 but if we chose to compare DDR2, then DDR2-800 4-4-4-12 is a slower performer than DDR2-1066 4-4-4-12 (the last four numbers are latencies). However, DDR2-800 3-3-3-8 1T performs better than DDR2-1066 4-4-4-12.

Technology is tricky and nothing which can be learned inside a week or two. It takes regular months of reading around, especially reviews and guides and then you'll slowly understand quite fully what would take a few books for us to write down. :wink:


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Thanks!

*1.* Ok, so if we figure out what video card is better then the other one - how do we know that 8800GT is almost as good as 8800GTX and even better in some parts? :1angel: Or someone had a chance to test it already?

*2. * If 8800GT is almost as good/ partially better then 8800GTX then 2x 8800GT should beat 1x 8800 GTX. which would make a way better thing to have for almost the same price (if not cheaper)?


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. Yes, its been tested a few times.

2. Yup it definitely would. Now you get what we mean by performance being dependent on price. :wink:


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Thanks a lot!

Well, that pretty much finishes a picture up... I am going to post a final result when I come back home from work (because it takes time and I don't want to be fired). Right now I just wanted to ask:

*1.* This memory 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146565
when overclocking it - does it metter if I have 4x 1GB or if I have 2x1GB

*2.* When working with 2d/3d graphics - does it meter what video card I am using? or it is all about the processor?

*3. *I order for (for example) Photoshop to run faster on a quad core processor what kind of version of Photoshop I need to look for so that it works to it's best? is going to be something like quad version or something? =)


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I am sorry for double-posting, too late to edit last message. I have few more questions:

*4.* I heard that 2 video cards only work for games that support it. Other games that don't support it would just use one. is that true?

*5.* For some reason I can't figure out how to post an avatar. Is that option available after certain amount of posts on this forum or something? :upset:


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. No. Just remember that it is probably better to get 2 x 2 GB or a 4 x 1 GB kit if you want 4 GB. Sometimes boards are picky about memory running in dual channel.

2. The card has 2D acceleration and for the most part all graphics cards have about the same noticeable 2D processing power. 

For 3D, we have an entire different world. Since the first introduction of the video card, we have had significant advances. The first video card simply took what the CPU gave it and displayed it onscreen. The CPU did all the calculations. 

Now we have full 3D acceleration and the graphics card does texture and lighting, physics processing, and calculations once done by the CPU with shaders. The graphics processing load has been and still is shifting from the CPU to the GPU. Right now, the CPU is mostly using its power durring 3D rendering to move data from its internal registers as well as the GPU onto the RAM. That is why for gaming, a $100 more CPU as an upgrade will be much less effective than a $100 more GPU as an upgrade.

We have a different story for things like Photoshop. This is a 2D application and for the most part utilizes the CPU for its calculations. For CAD however, the applications will deeply utilize the OpenGL API and use the cards hardware acceleration, which is why it is important to have a powerful card.

4. No. With both nVidia SLi and AMD/ATi Crossfire, the driver controls the interaction between the two card and the game basically sees it as one card that is twice as powerful (although you won't get twice the FPS as Kalim explained due to inefficiency). I believe you are thinking of multi-threaded games, where only certain games are able to fully utilize two CPUs at the same time.

5. You need to pass 500 posts, donate, or become a team member to choose a custom avatar.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. Is there some kind of program/programs I should have on my computer in order to overclock and maybe even tweak my future hardware?

2. What software do you guys recommend for tweaking Windows XP/Vista


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. You usually overclock in the BIOS.

2. I personally have found TweakUI to be the best for XP. Not sure about Vista as I haven't taken the time to thoroughly explore it.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

If I have two video cards, does it mean I can connect two monitors? ray:


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Yes.

Many GPUs have two DVI outputs now which enable you to connect two monitors per card.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

*1. *Is it better to buy the video card now? or later when it comes out officially? If there is a chance of something in it changing i'd rather wait. or it doesn't matter?

*2. *Where should I buy it when it comes out? or it really doesn't matter?


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I decided to go with Q6700 because I had some money left over.


$540 - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 Kentsfield 2.66GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

$500 - *2x* MSI Geforce 8800GT OC 512MB 256bit GDDR3 PCI-Express x16 HDCP & SLI Ready Video

$225 - MSI P6N Diamond LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

$190 - SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail

$185 - Western Digital Raptor X WD1500AHFD 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

$110 - Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gbs Hard Drive - OEM


$190 - *2x* Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

$65 - ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail

$35 - LITE-ON Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 8X DVD-R DL 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM IDE Burner with LightScribe Technology - Retail

$20 - Zonet 4+1 USB 2+1 Firewire Ports Combo PCI Host Controller Model ZUC2401 - Retail

$20 - AZiO BTD603-132 USB 2.0 Bluetooth Adapter - Retail

$10 - MITSUMI FA405M BLACK 13-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail

$10 - Microsoft N71-00007S Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB Wired Optical Wheel Mouse - OEM

*$2105*


----------



## linderman

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

YES all of your parts are compatible and will work very nicely together


personally I think the Q6700 is $$$$$$ overkill but hey; its your $


I would get the Q6600 and maybe a year from now when a large chunk of people are chasing the next latest and greatest fad you could pick up that same Q6700 for about $300.00 to $350.00 ????


your parts will all work nicely together though.


enjoy; youve earned it thru information overload


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Looks good.

The quad troubles my brain though as we've stated before. :sayyes:

The 8800GT official release is the 29th and Newegg already has some which will appear then. Here's one of them by XFX: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...150252+Newegg+8800GT&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

They could appear at any time now any place and all of them will be final revisions. Some may be overclocked more than others and the basic reference Nvidia model by other AIB partners such as XFX or EVGA (nd would be more expensive) but overall the stock technical abilities don't change yet.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Well......... We are done with building the system. I am very thanksfull

*1. *Of course I will have a lot of questions on how to update bios, set everything up, and overclock, but that's for the future. Let's not worry about it yet. I will start a new topic on how to do all that (*or should I continue it here?*).

*2. *You don't like quad Kalim? Why? Can you talk about it's disadvantages a little more? and also the advantages?

*3. *If I do get 2nd monitor (in some time) - what are disadvantages of having two monitors? The advantages are obvious - I will have more work space to work in, but I am sure there is always a negative side to anything positive. How does it reflect watching movies and playing games? does a movie/game open up to both monitors? or just one? How does it work?

*4. *I just took a look and find out that when I get TSF mebership, I indicates that I am willing automatically be renew my membership after it is done. Is there anyway to cancel it? I am willing to get 1 year subscription, which is 1 year membership (which is about 50 bucks, just as I would pay to that Chinese guy I talked about in my first post). I am not sure If I would want to get my second year yet. I might, but I am not sure yet...


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. Start a new thread, one for BIOS options and one for overclocking if you decide to do that.

2. I think Kalim was mentioning that it was a bit overkill, but I can't speak for him. I still think you should go for the E6850 instead.

3. With dual monitors, the only disadvantage I see is that sometimes the nVidia Control Panel starts to show some bugs when I enable dual monitors. But the advantages are plentiful. You can choose to open an application on either monitor. I generally find that having two monitors enabled does not take away from game performance, but I only enable dual monitors when I am actually using two.

I would just use the Paypal link on the Donate page. It's a one time payment.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I'll leave everything the way it is right now, but thanks for suggesting.

1. I am very active in this part of the forum now, but I am not going to disappear after I am done building my new system. Right now I check webdesign section a lot and soon will be very active at the 2d/3d design section. I am planing to stay and be a heavy user and I want some of those benefits that we get when subscribe =)

2. As I understand - you can choose if you want something to run on you first monitors, second monitor, or both of them on the same time? So I could be playing a game on one while browsing the web on other?

3. Also I always wanted to ask - Does the case reflect my system's performance? I want to modd my case for my old system. In fact, I won't mod anything, I'll just build a new one from scratch (material is acrylic). Which is not really to keep it, but for my portfolio. My goal is best design oriented Architecture school in California (Sci-Arch). I got to do a good job on my portfolio, because they are hard to get in to and all they judge you is your portfolio. I though of making some kind of case for my portfolio, but I still want my old system to work in it without burning or blowing up! So, is there anything I should be considering when designing a case? Airflow? Heat? Any articles regarding that?

Btw, my quick concept. It is going to be a lot different, but this should get a quick idea.


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

2. Yes, you can. Just remember to pause. :smile:

3. Not sure what you mean here. Your case should have sufficient cooling and space, but those is about the only requirements.


----------



## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

and make sure you have the holes for the motherboard screws


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



ervand said:


> *2. *You don't like quad Kalim? Why? Can you talk about it's disadvantages a little more? and also the advantages?


I answered this back in post #96. Same thing. A waste of $280 or so over a Q6600 I believe. 


> *3. *If I do get 2nd monitor (in some time) - what are disadvantages of having two monitors? The advantages are obvious - I will have more work space to work in, but I am sure there is always a negative side to anything positive. How does it reflect watching movies and playing games? does a movie/game open up to both monitors? or just one? How does it work?


Video card drivers are the worst bit about this, *especially* in Vista and Vista 64-bit. I use multiple computers and monitors at the same time using common switches and software like Synergy to share my keyboard/mouse across all, and I never had 2x8800GTX to work in SLI in Vista 32-bit/64-bit from November 06 to July 07, and neither did even 6, 5, 4, 3, or 2 monitors work at high resolutions I needed, nor the correct refresh rate, nor was my workspace split between even two monitors as I needed. The matters became worse across platforms which I need day in day out (such as BeOS, Ubuntu 7.10, Xandros, etc). Furthermore it never supported high resolutions for even one monitor with two or three cards, resolutions I needed because we typically need high resolution images for our line of work, and large monitors shared to render one big display. When running a simple Planar Dome C5i 21.3" 5MP monitor or an EIZO RadiForce G51-CL 5MP LCD, the max I had on three separate 8800GTX cards (XFX/XXX, ASUS/AquaTank, BFG/OC WC) was 1536 x 2048 while I needed 2048 x 2560. Bigger resolutions such as WQUXGA or smaller such as on NEC LCD5710 or Sharp PN 65" had even more problems. All these problems were driver faults which took till around August 07 to be fixed (still not completely). 8-9 months I was in charge of another 4000 such systems which all had the same problem and although we were getting good early drivers to test from nVidia, they hardly made a difference but in game play until August 07.

The negatives affect people depending on your computer use. :wink:


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I think those were some of the bugs I experienced. With the 158.22 drivers on XP 32-bit 3D games have never crashed, but sometimes after switching from dual monitors I need to reboot because the way application windows behave just goes out the window.

I would also agree that it is a waste of money as opposed to the Q6600. You could spend the extra money on more RAM which would help in 64-bit Windows or just about any Linux kernel.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Here is my point of view:
Q6600 is not as expensive as Q6700, but:
* I want to build my system/spend money on computer once.. without upgrading/spending more later
* I got $2k to spend on it for sure (+ just as I said I might think about more)
* It is going to last me a decent time until I build a new system, so I want to get as max as I could for these money that I have.
* I think 3.2Mhz (overclocked) is going to give me more performance then 2.8Mhz (overclocked) when it will come to Photoshop (which is going to be heavily used with heavy files)/3D graphics + some video editing (that I sometimes do)

Stuff that I posted in my last post with hardware is final and I am very satisfied with it!

Meanwhile I have another question...

*1. *When overclocked... how long does a hardware usually lasts? I understand that it all depends on how much you overclock it.... but does it reflect the life of the hardware significantly? or it isn't like that anymore as long as I take care of all the heat that it makes?

*2. *Is it true that manufacturers can find out that I overclocked my hardware (if for some reason it dies and I tried to replace it through manufacturer) and void my warranty?


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



ervand said:


> Here is my point of view:
> Q6600 is not as expensive as Q6700, but:
> * I want to build my system/spend money on computer once.. without upgrading/spending more later
> * I got $2k to spend on it for sure (+ just as I said I might think about more)
> * It is going to last me a decent time until I build a new system, so I want to get as max as I could for these money that I have.
> * I think 3.2Mhz (overclocked) is going to give me more performance then 2.8Mhz (overclocked) when it will come to Photoshop (which is going to be heavily used with heavy files)/3D graphics + some video editing (that I sometimes do)


They both overclock the same. If you can get 3.2GHz out of Q6700, you can get it from Q6600 as well and that is why it's the best seller right now.



> *1. *When overclocked... how long does a hardware usually lasts? I understand that it all depends on how much you overclock it.... but does it reflect the life of the hardware significantly? or it isn't like that anymore as long as I take care of all the heat that it makes?


If it runs stable and well inside the thermal limit (below 55C load testing), and your parts have normal voltage running through them which is not high, then no matter what speed you get, it won't damage your system. You have to understand, Intel does the same thing inside their labs - they overclock parts, change the label, test stability and pass them on as a different (higher SKU-more expensive) product. People have done it successfully since '95 at least.



> *2. *Is it true that manufacturers can find out that I overclocked my hardware (if for some reason it dies and I tried to replace it through manufacturer) and void my warranty?


If you buy overclocking supported gear, much of the components are still under warranty but to kill a component by overclocking requires high ignorance+foolishness+hastiness+/competing against others for name. Apart from where you find these characteristics, you hardly find a Core 2 system killed by overclocking. Most of the G0 step Core 2 Quads can reach 3.4GHz on air solid 'n' stable, 3.7GHz with best air cooing, so 3.2-2.8GHz is not high at all and easily within range.

The quickest component to kill is the motherboard by running high voltages and high FSBs, such as plus 400FSB (air cooled). And if the voltages/FSB was high, its quite easy to tell on motherboard/CPU inspection. Either way, it is your choice to overclock knowing that you can damage hardware if you do not be careful and learn what you're doing.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Hmm, you really made me think Kalim =)

*1. *So, if I can get both of them running at 3.2Ghz doesn't it mean I can get even more from Q6700? If not, then is Q6700 basically the same processor as Q6600 accept overclocked by the manufacture?? 

*2. *What's a max safest I could overclock Q6600? (With a much better cooling system ofcouse since I would have $280 to spend on cooling)

*3. *For the 64-bit systems. If I get a program that is 32-bit run on a windows xp/vista that is 64-bit - is it not going to run at all? or is it going to run, but work as if I was running it at 32-bit system?

*4.* If I am going to go with Q6600 then I am going to save $280. Should I concider getting a better cooling system and overclock it to even more then 3.2? What would you say is the safes but the maximum speed I could overclock Q6600 to?


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



ervand said:


> *1. *So, if I can get both of them running at 3.2Ghz doesn't it mean I can get even more from Q6700? If not, then is Q6700 basically the same processor as Q6600 accept overclocked by the manufacture??


Yep. It's the same thing. You shouldn't need or want to go above 3.33GHz in my honest opinion, for pretty much anything so far.

When I had a similar quad, I needed it for professional very intensive graphical and multimedia work as well as data analysis, fully watercooled (expensive I must add), and I could get it up to 4GHz stable with load temps around 46-48C, but I kept to use it at 3.2GHz instead. Didn't see any point in more and I just lowered the voltages very highly so I could shut off the extra fans and the TEC fan, keep very low noise and very low system power draw. 



> *2. *What's a max safest I could overclock Q6600?


Depends on your every component and its limit. Each one differs. Some Q6600 can do 4GHz air (max) with highest end air cooling on all components and others do 3.4GHz tops. Older steps did 3.2-3.4GHz on high end air cooling. 3GHz should be safe and easy though and what I would aim for to begin with. After that you can adjust for your needs by testing rigorously. If you feel more MHz will make a *substantial* enough difference, then try it. If not, then pointless to and you can stick with it.

You just have to do rigorous stability testing, and meanwhile keep checking on all northbridge, southbridge, CPU, RAM voltages/temperatures at the same time. If they're still in good range, and the processor is working flawlessly no matter how hard you push it for a day or two, then that would be fully stable to run.



> *3. *For the 64-bit systems. If I get a program that is 32-bit run on a windows xp/vista that is 64-bit - is it not going to run at all? or is it going to run, but work as if I was running it at 32-bit system?


Haven't tried it for a long while, but if it's not 64-bit, it most likely will not install in a 64-bit OS.



> *4.* If I am going to go with Q6600 then I am going to save $280. Should I concider getting a better cooling system and overclock it to even more then 3.2? What would you say is the safes but the maximum speed I could overclock Q6600 to?


As above, I think you should try for 3GHz slowly and see how your system behaves. You can usually tell if it's having problems or handling the speed increase with ease (monitor parameters). Then you should post back if you want to go further and guys here will help you with what is safe or not. Just be careful at what speed you run your RAM - keep it running stock speeds until after you've settled with a good CPU speed choice.

More cooling? It is usually good, but the one you've bought is the best bang for buck out there. Others (air) will help only 3-7C more at most and yet cost double as much. If you have more and you definitely want to spend it... then maybe upgrade RAM and wait for one good overclocked edition of 8800GT to buy them. They will outrun a stock GTX.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

$600 - *3x* BFG Tech BFGE86512GTOC2FE GeForce 8600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

$280 - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

$225 - MSI P6N Diamond LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

$190 - SILVERSTONE ST85ZF ATX12V EPS12V 850W SLI Certified Power Supply 90V ~ 264V (Auto Range) - Retail

$185 - Western Digital Raptor X WD1500AHFD 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

$220 - *2x *Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gbs Hard Drive - OEM

$190 - *2x* Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

$65 - ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail

$35 - LITE-ON Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 8X DVD-R DL 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM IDE Burner with LightScribe Technology - Retail

$20 - Zonet 4+1 USB 2+1 Firewire Ports Combo PCI Host Controller Model ZUC2401 - Retail

$20 - AZiO BTD603-132 USB 2.0 Bluetooth Adapter - Retail

$10 - MITSUMI FA405M BLACK 13-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader - Retail

$10 - Microsoft N71-00007S Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB Wired Optical Wheel Mouse - OEM

*$2050*


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

*1. *Current set up of my future system + budget allows me to get 3rd video card since it came out at a price $200!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143116

WHAT DO YOU THINK?!

PS: I know it is an overkill for existing games, but I am thinking for the future. Is it going to bring me more performance in future super-games?


*2. * I also added a third hard drive

*3. *Should I be considering getting a hard drive fan to cool it?

*4.* Is all that stuff going to fit in my case? or I WILL have to jump on the cover to get all that in =) ?


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## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

First of all, tri-SLi does not yet work so running 3 cards all rendering the same scene would not be possible; maximum two cards paired yet. Secondly, the 8600GT is far far behind the 8800GT and 8800GTX, let alone two of them. 2x 8800GT will be way too much compared to 3x 8600GT even in SLi.


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Haha.. Got to excited before going to bed =)
Thanks Kalim for pointing all that out.

Got a wrong video card and it wouldn't work anyways =)
So I should wait for 8800GT to come out, although it should be today. I guess a little later, maybe tomorrow when I wake up. Anyways......

I think Kalim got tired of me and other don't even reply. Ahahah.
I am sorry for taking too long  but every other post/change that we make makes me even more and more satisfied...........

Meanwhile, more questions:

*1. *How do I figure out how many hard drives can I connect? I understand that I need to have enough ports to connect it in the motherboard + anough power cables to connect it to the power block.

*2. *Does that powerblock that we chose as of now have anough power to keep up with all the hardware that we have right now? Alot of stuff changes since we last chose a powerblock.

*3. *Do I need to get hard drive fan/fans? I think it will get hot in there =)

Hopefully it'll all fit......
Is there anything else I need to consider?


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## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



> *1. *How do I figure out how many hard drives can I connect? I understand that I need to have enough ports to connect it in the motherboard + anough power cables to connect it to the power block.


Just those two and to have enough case room. :tongue:



> *2. *Does that powerblock that we chose as of now have anough power to keep up with all the hardware that we have right now?


Yep. Ample room ahead.



> *3. *Do I need to get hard drive fan/fans? I think it will get hot in there =)


 With 3 drives? The Caviars won't be, but the Raptor gets hotter than the others due to its higher RPM spinning so you can just have good case cooling and it should be OK. I don't like to reach 40℃ on my drives in any condition (summer or in the desert) so I cool it dependently. YMMV



> Is there anything else I need to consider?


Maybe better RAM if you have extra dollars.



> I think Kalim got tired of me and other don't even reply. Ahahah.
> I am sorry for taking too long  but every other post/change that we make makes me even more and more satisfied...........


I don't wait here at all, I read->reply and then carry on with my daily duties although I stay logged in and get a beep on my phone when someone emails me (reply to thread email subscription). At that time I just use the quickest method of reading and replying back, which is usually a UMPC or PDA, if not then a smartphone. :wink:


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

*1. *I ment is there anough of those ports and wire on my motherboard and powerblock? I just don't know what they are called and find out in the specifications

*2. *I though RAM that we have right now is best possible (when overclocked) what are your suggestions for a better ram?


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

1. Your motherboard will allow you to connect up to 7 SATA devices and 2 IDE devices. Your power supply allows you to connect 7 SATA devices and 6 IDE devices with the stock cabling. You can route some of the IDE (aka 4-pin peripheral connectors) to SATA devices if necessary. Your case will be the biggest limitation.

2. I'm not sure what Kalim meant, with the Q6600 that RAM will provide future proofing and plenty of overclocking headroom. IMO there is no RAM that will provide faster performance.


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Well, that video card came out... it is $300 right, hopefully it is going to go less (on Christmas sale or something). Meanwhile I have some questions:

*1. *which one of these is better? (don't look at the price at all)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127311
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121099
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150252
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130303

*2. *What is a difference between those cards? I see it comes from different manufacturers? Is there any difference between them? (I want to get 2 =) Most of you know, I just say it in case it matters)

*3. *When do you think it is going to go down prices?


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## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

http://shop3.outpost.com/product/5434329

Wow that is a good deal...


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## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



1 g0t 0wn3d said:


> http://shop3.outpost.com/product/5434329
> 
> Wow that is a good deal...


Now I want one... :laugh:

Grab two of those while they are in stock, that is an awesome deal.


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## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

buy one matt..... (and send me the 8600)


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## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

The EVGA SSC 8800GT and the XFX XXX edition are both the best cards as far as I've seen. They're clocked 700/1750/2000 IIRC which will beat a GTX. One of them sells for $299CAD so I expect anywhere from $265-290ish USD.

Performance on each of the cards will vary on core/shader/memory speeds and other "tweaks" the manufacturer may have done. Traditionally, XFX has the fastest and best performer at least in the opening 4-5 months while BFG tends to come out with something even more powerful (watercooled) 6-7 months after. EVGA usually has the best budget buy with stock->high clocks, but not the supreme performer.


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## 1 g0t 0wn3d

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Thats why their warrenty does not void when you overclock.


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## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I am getting this too
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ard&start=36&ndsp=18&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&sa=N

Looks very cool and will help on my main drive (10k RPM one)

I understand that this is not requirement, but i decided to go for it, for the look and a little of efficiency.......


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Another thing I wanted to ask is - 


Here is my case:









It has two big fans on the back and on the front and it also has one small one on the side










Plus it got that cutout element that allows air to go through the holes










I want to cut a big square in my case like so:
(see the red lines)









and put an acrylic sheet inside so that my computer has a window.

if I do that - I run into two problems:

*1. *A small fan gets removed. I don't know if it is bad or not. I wouldn't want to, but if it is best to cut out a square inside of the window to install a small fan back where it was I am going to do it. YOu tell me...

*2. *A cutout design that is on my case allows air to go through it. If I put a big acrylic sheet it is going to loose this ability. Again, I don't know if it is good or not. Is it important that a fan that is on a processor (ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler) transfers air to the outside? Or it is ok if it would be blowing air inside and around my tower where two big fans (on the back and in the front) take care of that?


----------



## Kalim

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*



ervand said:


> *1. *A small fan gets removed. I don't know if it is bad or not. I wouldn't want to, but if it is best to cut out a square inside of the window to install a small fan back where it was I am going to do it. YOu tell me...


I doubt it'd make much a difference but good *if* you have good exhaust (back) cooling. The air coming in from the front has to pick up heat and exit out of the back of the case (through slots, mesh, PSU, fans).


> *2. *A cutout design that is on my case allows air to go through it. If I put a big acrylic sheet it is going to loose this ability. Again, I don't know if it is good or not. Is it important that a fan that is on a processor (ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler) transfers air to the outside? Or it is ok if it would be blowing air inside and around my tower where two big fans (on the back and in the front) take care of that?


You'll need more than one in the back if you go with the plain acrylic sheet. It needs to remove *more air* than is incoming and generated by the internal component fans.


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I don't think there is enough space on the back to plant another fan (look at the picture)


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I could put one on top, because there is an opening on top. I don't know if it fit though. Another option is to put a stronger one on the back.

I think that hard drive fan listen above moves air inside too? So I really need to find a way to compensate it =)

What do you guys think?


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

I always find these little fans a great addition to any computer with a dedicated video card. I have one myself.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835888309


----------



## Yervand

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Perfect! I am going to get one of these, but ...

*1. *...is that going to be enough? consider that I am installing a cooler that is taking air 
*2. *That motherboard (MSI P6N Diamond LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard) is out of stock I guess... When I click on a link it does send me to it anymore. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=Suggested&Description=13-130

I could only find this open box one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130080R

Should I wait for newegg get one more in stock? or is there an alternate solution to fit my hardware? Or openbox should be fine?


----------



## TheMatt

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130080

It is out of stock but should be in sometime soon. Newegg usually has an ETA date so keep checking back to see if they add one.

That should be enough. Two exhaust fans (not counting the PSU) and one intake will be fine. Thats 6 fans total. :smile:


----------



## caspirock

*Re: ~$2000+ PC Tower*

Have Server and 2 standalones of Autocad 2008. Doing this since ver. 1.7.
Get 4MB RAM!
Careful about OS, shy Vista, XP OK.
Get a 160GB portable and keep mirror backup of work there (e.g. Symantec Live State Recovery.
2005 Autocad unstable in 3D heavy work - save often.


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